As many of you who have read my previous posts about Hattie (2 1/2 year old Dobe), will know, she has been a complete nightmare when out walking, pulling, lunging, screaming like a banshee and growling/barking when seeing other dogs/people/cats/cyclists (anything that moves really). Well that's one problem, and to a certain extent I could live with that, if that was the only problem.

But, over recent months, she has started becoming unpredictable in the house with the other dogs, 99% of the time only with the other bitches (all are neutered apart from Esme who is only 20 weeks old), rarely with Hamish and never with my old boy, Charlie.

As a bit of background as to how my dogs live with me, all are allowed access to the sofas, my bed, have free run of the house etc and there are few problems generally. They are all raw fed, so I'm sure it's not diet-related.

She used to be the best behaved at feeding time, she'd sit quietly and wait for her food, now she will have a go at any of them to the extent I now crate her at food time to avoid any damage being done. We all used to cuddle up on the sofa, now she can be perfectly settled but will suddenly fly at one of the others, no real reason seems apparent. The same at bed-time. It used to be her, Lottie (her mother) and Winnie on the bed with me, I'm now having to crate her at night. There are no warnings, no growling, just into a full blown attack. I am loathed to keep her permanently separated from the others because most of the time she so loves being with them, she plays with them, runs around in the garden with them and hates being on her own, loves her mum and is constantly grooming her, but I am really at a loss as what to do now for the best. When she isn't crated, she's muzzled and I really wonder what sort of life she's having, she is undoubtedly stressed and to a certain extent so are the other dogs, not to mention me, wondering what's going to happen next.

She is due for her check-up at the vets soon and I'm going to insist on another thyroid test (she has had them before and was OK), but with "behavioural" problems they really aren't interested. The behaviourists I have seen previously (before these indoors problems started) seem to think it is to do with pack orders and I'm not totally convinced on that front. I can't afford to keep seeing them at the moment and wonder if any of you have any ideas?

Karen

PS. Sorry about the length of the post.

Is she covered by insurance?  If so many policies will cover behaviourist referrals.

I must admit my first thoughts on reading this were that there may be an underlying neurological problem  (or possibly some other medical condition) as from what you write it does not strike me as "behavioural" per se ...

Is it possible that you are some how missing "triggers" to what otherwise appear unprovoked / unexplained attacks?

I feel for you here because it must be very traumatic for all of the dogs, not just Hattie herself, and of course probably even more so for you :(

Sorry, not much help really, but sending good wishes that you can get to the bottom of things and put them right.
regards, Teri

Hi Teri.

Yes she is covered by insurance, but only £250 per year, and I had a real hoo-ha with M&S when I claimed previously, because they wanted to include all the blood tests etc, which all came back clear (amounting to about £150 alone) in with the referral fee (over £200). My thoughts are neurological rather than behavioural, but if she has a brain scan for example (expensive), which proves inconclusive, will I be able to claim? I think another word with the vet is called for here, or M&S.

I don't think I'm missing triggers. We can be sitting quietly, with the dogs asleep even, and she will suddenly fly. I could understand if one of the others had trodden on her or something, but even then it is the severity of the reaction. The others would grumble, squeal, whatever, she just goes into attack mode. I can, at times, see an odd look in her eye, the way she is looking at one of the others, and know if the other dog moves she will have a go, but why?

I am sorry for you, I think that you have a major problem that you have acknowledged in you wording "she has started becoming unpredictable in the house".
I am no authority and just offering an opinion, but I do remember when my Vet said to me about my 'unpredictable' dog that it was just that word made me realise...............
I wish you luck with opinions from others, maybe someone a bit more positive will come along!

Karen :-)

Unpredictable,...... as with you Karen, that was the word that told me there was a real problem with our Dobe bitch. I do hope this problem is solveable?

Could it be a form of epilepsy maybe? It is something someone mentioned to me and has made me think (I may just be clutching at straws trying to explain the behaviour). Has anyone experienced any of Hattie's behaviours with their dogs that had a neurological/medical diagnosis rather than behavioural?

Hi Karen,

I think your girl definitely merits further investigation because as I mentioned before the random/unpredictable nature of these attacks IMO suggests a possible neurological cause.

In my own breed there are lines which carry epilepsy although in recent years it's rare to hear of cases as breeders do their utmost to avoid suspect lines, that said, I know of 2 different dogs which were diagnosed as epileptic (grand mal) and both were prone to making attacks similar to those you describe - HOWEVER, there were obvious signs of fitting as when these dogs attacked anything, (other dogs, family members and if alone or confined walls, furnishings etc) they were clearly "out of it" with no apparent awareness of surroundings, voices etc and went on to physically thrash around, shaking, clawing in the air etc.  If you have not seen any physical signs post attack with Hattie then I'm not sure if it would point to a seizure induced behaviour or not but would certainly discuss it further with a professional.

HTH, very best wishes, Teri

I agree with Teri on this one.

I'd also like to ask - the thyroid tests you've had done in the past, were they the vet standard 3 or 4 factor tests or were they full panels (8 factors I think)?  To get a complete picture of thyroid function it really needs to be the full sweep, and I'd recommend sending the samples to Dr Dodds (Hemopet) in California (assuming you haven't already).

My dobe boy had two tests done in the UK (a 4 factor and a TSH stim), both were inconclusive/low normal and it was only after I sent his samples to the states last year that I could finally feel satisfied that his levels were normal.

Hi Nikita

Do the vets send the samples direct to Jean Dodds or just take the sample which the owner then sends off? I'm pretty sure she would have had the basic vet tests in the past. As I mentioned in the original post pennies are a bit tight at the moment, so would this be something claimable on the insurance would you think? If necessary I could dig really deep into my pockets.

Hi Karen

unfortuantely i cannot offer any advice on this as yet but i just wanted to let you know you are not alone. my bitch has started showing behaviour that sounds exactly like ur dog. my bitch is 3 years old and she has started 'going for' dogs, including my other 2 older dogs that she has always lived with as i have had all my dogs since they were puppies. she also does it to my sisters 2 dogs. she is getting progressively worse and i have spoken to my vet who has referred me to a behaviourist (despite asking for health tests first). i thought her issue was just with my dogs and thought it was jealousy, but she does it when im not home, and my mum is there, and also if they visit my sister. i also have been doing agility with her for the last year or so, and all of a sudden last week, she lunged at my friends dog, (who she has also know since she was a puppy and always been on walks with) and then she did it to the agility trainers dog. the trainer was very shocked (as she has know her for over a year) but also very understanding but needless to say i was horrified and very embarrassed and wont be taking her back until i have seen the behaviourist (15th january). when we are home, she will be lying asleep on the sofa and if my other dogs even walk through the door, she lunges off the sofa growling and snapping and if i grab her she sometimes bites me too. anyway, im not trying to take the attention off ur problem, just wanted to say ur not alone! hope you get some answers soon, that might give me some hope aswell

becky

I hope you get an answer soon too Becky - it must be very upsetting for you.

Good luck and please let us know how things go after you've seen the behaviourist :)
very best wishes,

Teri

Hi,

Can I just ask a few questions:

What age was she when she was spayed?  Did she have any problems with seasons or after like phantom pregnancies?

Is she guardy generally over food/toys?

How long has this been going on for?

Is she generally herself other than these aggressive outbursts or does she seem low/quiet at times or more hyper?

What is her daily routine with exercise and training etc?

It is also possible that she has become allergic to something in her diet - I know someone whose dog is allergic to chicken and the reaction this gives is to make the otherwise placid dog anxious and reactive.

Karen :-)

hiya

She was spayed ay about 18months, didn't have any phantoms or problems with her seasons. she can be guardy over food and toys yes but its not only when she has food or toys that she does it. she has had a 'thing' about one of my other dogs for quire a while but she only used to go for him every so often, i would say perhaps once a month if that, and it was never as agressive as she is now (she bit him and broke the skin about 2 millimeteres below his eye the sunday before christmas) but she has got progressively worse and as i said before, she is like it with most other dogs now and it is an everyday occurrance at home (she actually went for my oldest dog a few moments after i posted earlier, he walked in the living room and she flew off the sofa at him growling and snapping and chased him out of the living room.) other than when she does this, she is completely loving and affectionate and i have many photos of her sleeping in the same bed as the others or curled up on the sofa with the one she attacks the most, so i dont understand how she can be so loving to him one minute and biting him the next? her daily routine pretty much stays the same every day with a walk before i go to work, a walk in the evening and perhaps another one in between depending on the weather (i actually have to take my dogs out more if its raining because one is a squinny and wont go in the garden if its wet!) another thing which i find very odd is ever since the first time i took her out as a puppy, when she meets strange dogs, she screams her head off as if its killing her, but the dog needn't be anywhere near her. she did it at training classes and she does it at the vets, she still does it now, and there is not way of quitening her down untill she is ready to be quiet. she seems scared but i dont understand why because she has always been sociallised with a variety of different dogs right from the word go. her diet is the raw meat slabs and she has chappie complete biscuits as i have to feed that to my other dog and its seems to suit their tummies. untill i see the behaviourist, im at my wits end!

becky x

Hi,

Becky, Firstly I would insist that bloods and health checks are done - you do have the right to do this and if your vet won't, then personally I would be changing vets - any good behaviourist usually wants a vet referal anyway so that medical problems have been ruled out.  Aggressions really needs to be seen to be properly advised upon as there are so many different reasons for it.

Was she well socialsed with lots of other dogs on a regular basis when she was growing up and did this continue or did she just socialise with your other dogs - was she always like this even from a puppy?

The thing is if she is regularly getting into fights, she's going to be a very sressed little girl.  Her adrenaline levels will never be getting a chance to get back to normal and being in this state is in itself more likely to cause her to fight and it just becomes a vicious circle. For the time being while waiting for a behaviourist I would probably do the following:

Keep her seperate for a week - try keeping her away from the other dogs so that she doesn't have a chance to get into a fight, this will allow her adrenaline levels to get back to normal and hopefully allow her to get a bit less stressed. 

Walk her seperately from your other dogs so that she gets one to one training and attention - this will help keep her mind occupied and keep her focussed on you.

Teach her a good 'watch me' so that she can learn to focus on you when other dogs are around rather than focus on them and get her self more and more stressed.  I've taught my girl that seeing another dog or person is a cue for her to look at me which she gets rewarded for; this has taken quite a while to achieve but is soo useful.

If she's guardy with food or toys then try not leaving toys around and keep her seperate at food/treat times.  Again this will allow her stress levels to remain lower.

Do short training sessions two or three times a day if possible to give her something to focus on and keep her brain busy and tire her out.  Also try keeping walks varied and interesting by doing training on walks to keep her more focussed on you.

Have you heard of Ttouch, it's basically uses different types of touches all over the body (kind of massage) - it helps stressed and hyper dogs to relax and while it won't be a cure it can certainly be part of a plan.  I've used it on lots of dogs, and have seen to different degrees an effect on them all.

I hope you find a good behaviourist to help you and get to rule out medical problems :-)

In response to karenclynes (I assume you want me to answer the Q's as well as becky?).

<What age was she when she was spayed?  Did she have any problems with seasons or after like phantom pregnancies?>
She was spayed after her first season (approx 13 months). When they removed all her "bits" the vet did say it looked on the verge of a pyo.

<Is she guardy generally over food/toys?>
Not particularly. At feeding time she WAS the most calm and sensible, she certainly isn't now. Giving out treats for example, she would again be the calmest and most gentle out of all of them.

<How long has this been going on for?>
The first "attack" was about a year ago. The next a couple of weeks after the first, then nothing for months. With multiple dogs I don't think it is that unusual to have the odd fracas just not to the extent we are now experiencing.

<Is she generally herself other than these aggressive outbursts or does she seem low/quiet at times or more hyper?>
Yes, on the whole. She has always been a bit nervy.

<What is her daily routine with exercise and training etc?>
She always has had the same basic routine and did walk with the other dogs (apart from when she was a tiny pup). Most of the time now she is walked alone because she is such a nightmare. She was socialised as a youngster and went to training classes and we did start agility but have had to stop because she is just soooo disruptive to the rest of the class and a pain to control.

<It is also possible that she has become allergic to something in her diet - I know someone whose dog is allergic to chicken and the reaction this gives is to make the otherwise placid dog anxious and reactive.>
I'd never really considered diet being a problem as she is raw fed. How did your friend find out her dog had problems with chicken?

To becky
I'm sorry about your problems and can certainly sympathise. I would advise you get some blood/urine checks done BEFORE seeing the behaviourist to rule out anything medical (most behaviourists will ask if you've had any medical checks done). I've seen 2 and both seem to think it's down to pack hierarchy, which I'm sooo sceptical about and following their advise I have put Hattie at the bottom of the pack, ie fed after the others, not allowed to sleep on the bed, not allowed on sofas etc. but if anything I'd say she is worse following these guidelines. I'm going to make an appointment with my vet tomorrow to discuss further.

I wish you luck, and if you want a chat with someone in the same position PM me.

Karen x

I didn't realise that the poster asking the questions wasn't the initial poster! i just saw the name karen and thought it was the original one so sorrt if those questions were not aimed at me!!
I have asked my vets to do checks i.e blood etc but my vet wont do anything untill i have seen the behaviourist. it seems a bit backward to me but my vet said that the behaviourist will advise if she thinks it is not behavioural then they will investigate further.

Becky

It seems there are a lot of Karen's involved on this thread - definately room for confusion to set in!

When I saw the 1st behaviourist, it was more to do with Hattie's problems outdoors, the indoor problems weren't as bad as they are now, but one of the first things she said was to rule out medical problems first. Maybe your vet/behaviourist works in a different way? I wish you luck anyway.

Karen (Pedlee)

Hi Karen (Pedlee)

I wander if the stress she's feeling when outdoors is creeping into the indoor environment and that again as said above, her adrenaline levels just aren't getting a chance to return to normal leaving her in a constantly stressed state meaning she's more likely to fly off the handle for no apparent reason.

Do you feel there is a chance this could be hormonal - is there a cyclical pattern to it?

Some of above suggestions to Becky may also be benefical in your situation, it's so important with any kind of aggression to get high levels of responsiveness/obedience aswell as working on the source of the problem if it is fear based.  I have PM'd you aswell.

Karen :-)

Hi all,
just thought i'd give an update after seeing the behaviourist today. i would welcome any opinions on the advice i was given.
Firstly, the behaviourist i saw today was the resident behaviourist at my vets. i discussed all the issues with her that slinky has, and she told me it definately doesn't sound like any medical issue, just behavioural and traning issues. i told her that she goes for my other dogs when they walk into the same room as her (especially if she is on the sofa), and that she can be agressive with my sisters dogs, and she has started doing it with other dogs too (at agility as mentioned in earlier post). she told me it sounds as if she is trying to re-assert herself as the top leader of the pack in my house, and the way to control it is to basically allow her to do it! i was shocked at this, as she said i should feed her first, and if she chases my other dogs out of the living room, i should leave them to sort themselves out, if my other dogs go downstairs (i have a 3 story house) then i shouldn't bring them back up. she said it sounds like she gets insecure and thats when she starts getting agressive and assertive. she also said that the agression with other dogs is a seperate issue. i mentioned that she keeps weeing in the house and she thinks that slinky isnt able to differentiate between outside and inside because we have lino floor where she keeps weeing, and she does tend to go to the toilet on payment rather than grass when we are out. i have just replaced my lino just before christmas and hoped that it might stop her doing it because there would be no scent there but low and behold, the next day she wee'd on it. she suggested i buy a DAP diffuser, which i bought from the vets today, and she then said she thinks i should go to a more specialist behaviorist which she would refer me to, with regard to agression with other dogs. she also advised i find a trainer who will do one to one training as she doesn't learn very well in classes. i did say to her that i couldn't afford the specialist behaviourist right now as money is very tight and she said it would be about £150.00 (that would be on top of finding a one to one trainer, and the money ive spent today £75.00) which my insurance wont pay for. i do realise i have to do something tho so i am going to try and find a one to one trainer , as i do think this would help as she doesn't have many manners to be honest. if anyone could recommend one that would be great i live in portsmouth in hampshire
what does everyone think of this advice? (p.s sorry its sooo long!!)

becky x x

Hi Becky,

IMO if you take the behaviourists advice and allow this to carry on I think it will end up with big vets bills and shocked  and bitten dogs to be perfectly honest. Bitches can be known to fight to the death with same sex and it wouldn't be something I would be happy to do (let her assert her authority on the others). Find yourself a 1 2 1 trainer and I wish you every sucsess with Slinky.

Just a little UPDATE!

Things are no different really with Hattie and the vets are really dragging their feet on tests/behaviour referrals.

So, I've booked an appointment for Monday to have bloods taken for a York Allergy test and another for the full thyroid panel which I am probably getting sent to Jean Dodds, to hopefully rule out anything medical.

My vet e-mailed the original behaviourist I saw in December 2006 but hasn't heard back from her, and I wasn't happy with her in the first place, so I've arranged to see another, more local and well respected trainer/behaviourist (don't know if I can mention who it is on here?) next Wednesday.

Wish me luck!

FURTHER UPDATE!

The York allergy test came back and it seems she has an intolerance to beef and wheat (she is raw fed so never gets wheat, but often has beef).

The thyroid test came back as normal, although her T4 level was at the low end of the range (1.05 - normal range 1.0 -4.0), and Jean Dodds recommends yearly testing.

The sessions with the trainer are going well, we've had 2 indoor sessions and will be venturing outside on saturday. His recommendations were to exercise her in the back of beyond, where we are unlikely to meet other dogs, so that all her meetings with strange dogs are in a controlled situation. This has been working well.

He also advised adapting her diet as the high protein levels could be exacerbating the problem. As she is raw fed, he has asked me to add cooked rice to her meat and cut down on the quantity of meat, stick to one protein source, and give any variety and special foods as training aids, nothing in between.

I'd be interested to hear your opinions on the feeding side of things, especially you raw feeders out there?

She is still having a go at Lottie, and sometimes Winnie, but does seem slightly calmer.

It's great you are getting some answers.

I have no experience of food causing problems with behavior, but I well believe it.
We found out the main reason for my lab x repeated ear infections & itchy sore skin were down to a white meat intolerance. The vet was no help with this, it took me over a year of recording the ingredients in EVERYTHING he ate & logging any ear troubles. I eventually discovered that within 4 hours of him eating chicken (the biggest trigger for him) his ear would start to itch & become inflamed (only 1 ear). Before I doscovered this, I would obviously feed him as normal (chicken flavour tinned food, not BARF), wich would end up in 12 hours with his ear becoming so bad he would be holding his head on 1 side and would have a huge swelling under his chin/1 side of his neck along with bloody/pussy discharge from the ear.

I know this isn't the same as your poor girl is suffering, but it does emphasize the bizarre reactions our dogs can get from the most unliky things.

I hope somebody has something more relevent to help you.

Hi Pedlee,

I'm glad you've got some med results back to work with and hope avoiding beef helps towards a distinct improvement :)

As to high protein levels affecting behaviour, personally I've never bought into that through assessing the differences in characters and activity levels of my own dogs over the years and switching diets when I thought it would show a difference.  It never did LOL.

I think some dogs, regardless of breed but possibly easier to map through lines in a breed (if known), simply have more "hyper" tendancies than others :)  FWIW, my most "manic" one to date is, if anything slightly calmer since moving onto a raw fed diet than she was on various completes so IMO if food was related at all then it was possibly the non-protein elements of completes that was exacerbating her busy, must do something 24/7 attitude ....  Equally my first male calmed considerably when fed a predominantly meat diet but I can't say for sure that being raw fed helped as of course it may be that over time each of these two would have calmed (a little) anyway.

I guess it's a judgement call!
regards, Teri

Like you Teri, I have always been slightly dubious about the high protein foods getting the blame for hyper behaviour. Hattie's brother is fed on "Rocket fuel", a very high protein complete dry food, I'm sure full of artificial flavours, colours etc. and although he is lively he doesn't have her "nervous" nature and of course can burn off his energy doing flyball, agility etc. whereas I can't with her because of her dislike for other dogs. Catch 22! Hopefully she will continue to show improvement, however small.

Hi Pedlee
My concern re restricting the raw diet to just one protein source would be how balanced the diet was going to be?  I'm no barf expert but I thought you had to vary the protein sources (offal, chicken, lamb, oily fish, eggs etc) in order to ensure a balance.  No doubt you could overcome this with supplements to some extent, but...........   Are you a member of the Britbarf yahoo group?  They would be the people I would go to to ask for more info.  Will be interested in other responses to this one.

Good luck  

I babysat my friends dog recently for 2 weeks.Now, this dog was a hyper,itchy maniac. I took him off of his regular food of around 20% protein which was also full of colours and flavours,and switched him onto the food my dogs get which is 42% protein and 20% fat.
Well the turn around in this dog was amazing,by the time he left my place his skin had calmed down,his coat was glossier and the itchies had all but stopped, and he was nowhere near as skittish/hyper.Needless to say my friend has now switched him permanently onto the new food.
Before this i never believed in the connection of high protein equals hyper dogs,but this experience just confirmed it for me.

Hi Gunner
Yes I do belong to Britbarf. The reason to stick with one protein source, as I understand it, is to make her "meals" less interesting, therefore paying more attention to me when training with "exciting" treats. Hopefully this will be relatively short term and I do understand the need for a variation in diet to create a balanced diet. I will discuss this with the trainer on Saturday as I certainly wouldn't want to keep to this diet long-term.

Hi Ktee

<Before this i never believed in the connection of high protein equals hyper dogs,but this experience just confirmed it for me.>

I agree, I think it is the quality of the ingredients rather than the protein levels.