Hi everyone,
I'm getting a bichon frise puppy soon and want some advice.  i seem to understand about crate training in the day time and getting the pup used to the crate but there's not much advice in the books or on the internet on what to do at night time.  do people use pads or get up in the night?i dont mind either way but just want to do what's best.  I was going to use pads in the night time but on here the general concensus sayss not to and they make house training longer.

Also, ive heard that you shouldn't go to the pup if she is whining or crying but then how do you tell the difference between a cry for attention and a cry for the toilet?!and do you leave the door shut or open?

If you get up in the night how often  would you get up and would you set an alarm?i go to bed around 11pm or 12 so do you start off getting up at around 3am and gradually make the time longer over time?

help please!!

I use crate for my pups, until they are about 10 months old and have stopped any chewing, or can be relied upon not to chew anything that isn't theirs. I have always trained pups to be shut in, although never had to.

I have never shut them in at night, but I would say if you wanted ot do this, you'd be best to get up several times in the night to take the pup out for a wee. However, the problem I see with this is that you would probably wake the pup up by going down when maybe she wouldn't have woken, but she will then need a wee as she has woken up.

What I personally do is leave the crate door open at night and confine the pup to a kitchen or somewhere easy to clean up with some newpaper down, so that if they wake up they can toilet on the paper. (most pups are trained to do this while with their breeder, so they will be more used to paper than pads) When the paper starts to be consistently dry in the morning, that is when your pup is toilet trained and you can take the paper up.

I have never had pups get confused with this method. They seem to know if there is paper there, they are allowed to use it, if it is not there, they have to go outside.

We used a crate for our GR when he was a pup. We would ignore any noise he made when he was first put in the crate when we went to bed but would get up to take him out if he made a noise in the night. I would open his cage and put his lead on without saying anything at all to him and then take him out into the garden. If he performed he would get lots of praise and a treat but if he just wanted to play I didn't speak to him at all and would bring him back in and put him back in his crate. He very quickly cottoned on that I wasn't going to play in the middle of the night but was delighted when he went to the toilet. Within two weeks he was going all through the night without needing a regular middle of the night trip outside, but, on the occasions when he did need to go out he would give a couple of barks to let us know he needed to go :) If for some reason he hadn't needed to go to the loo before we went to bed then I would set the alarm for around 2:30am and take him out then, again not saying anything to him until he had performed.

We would put him to bed at around midnight as soon as he had been taken out to toilet and would get up at six o'clock to take him out again before he had his breakfast. All dogs are different though and housetraining takes different lengths of time with different dogs. Our second pup has never asked to go out to the toilet - he does a silent stare at the back door so we just have to make sure he is always given the opportunity to go out at regular intervals.

The crate was originally put inside a playpen with the door open until he was used to it and, once he was clean all night, we did shut the door at night until he had passed the chewing stage. Even when full grown he would still squash himself in the crate until it was finally taken down.

did he eventually stop whining when he first got put in then cos read a few things on here saying whined all night?so if he woke up after the first bit of whining you'd take him out?after 2 weeks going through the night sounds like a dreeeeeeeeeeeaaaam!how long would you stay in the garden if he didnt go before going inside again?

when you left the door open at first did your pup go to the toilet in the pen out of the crate or did he still make a noise to go outside?sorry for all the questions!!

Thanks for that.  It makes sense.  I'll ask the breeder what she's doing.  Just a couple of questions.  Do you train them to go outside in the day time and not have the paper down?or do you have paper down all the time?if you only have it at night how do you train them to go on it at night or do they just get used to the differences at day or night?Thanks for helping!!
Gemma

Yes, they are trained to go outside in the daytime. If I put paper down in the day, they would probably use that, as they know they can go on paper, but as it isn't down, and I am vigilant, no accidents indoors. Ever.

I use paper at night as I don't like shutting them in the crates really, unless it is for their own safety. Plus, I don't see the need to get up in the night, as the pup isn't physically capable of holding on for as long as the paper is down, and when they can hang on all nigth, the paper is up, so they do.

I have never had any crying at night, or not crying other than a minute or so when we first go up the first night.

I have also just bred my first litter, and am very proud to be able to say, all new families have followed my methods, and not one has been kept awake by crying, and toilet training is going very well, especially considering for a lot of them, it is their first dog. One pup is still here with us, waiting to go to it's new owners when they get back from a  Christmas/New Year holiday. She is 11 weeks old, and you wouldn't know she is here. I have been a little lazy, and just paper trained her 24/7, as obviosuly it's been busy here over the holiday period, plus I have been unwell, but we have had no accidents on the carpet at all, and she sleeps seperate from her Mum, so alone all night in her open crate, using paper if she needs to toilet. She hasn't chewed a thing, and is a puppy saint! :-)

I crate small pups with the door closed but IN MY ROOM with me. They get the company, so dont tend to fuss, and only squeak when they need the garden. On the whole i tend to set the alarm for 3 am fo a scheduled toilet break rather than allow the pup to wake with a full bladder. I find that if they wake on a full bladder they dont settle back to sleep as well. By taking them out at 3, they are a bit sleepy, do their business, and then settle back to sleep easily. Gradually they learn to cope without the wee break.

thanks. so did you gradually lengthen the time you would go down for the toilet?just a bit worried that would wake up the pup when she didnt need the toilet!!thanks
Gemma

Hi Gemma - firstly I am definitely no expert, Harley is the only dog we have ever had from a tiny puppy as the others have all been older when they came to live with us. And Harley is also a dream to train as he cottons on exceptionally quickly and is sooooo eager to please :)

I never went back to him at all when we first put him in the crate for bedtime. The first night he did make a bit of a fuss to begin with but not for very long - maybe half an hour or so. As I say he was a rescue and had been in a pen all by himself from the age of 8 weeks to 10 weeks so he was fairly used to being by himself - he didn't mix with any of the other dogs as he hadn't yet been vaccinated. He never went to the toilet at all in the playpen or his crate. Middle of the night toilet breaks I would wait outside for 10 minutes to see if he went and, if not, take him back to his crate/pen without saying a word to him and ignoring any attempt on his part to attract my attention, but he would usually go within the first couple of minutes of taking him outside and then he got attention and lots of praise.

We actually made a chart up and stuck it on the fridge and recorded when he went which helped us out enormously. It meant that if one of us heard him in the night we could look at the chart and see if he had been taken out recently by another member of the family - if so then we would ignore the noise and him but if he hadn't been out recently then we knew he probably needed to go out. It avoided the mistake of the person who had taken him out ignoring any barking when he went back into the crate but another member of the family hearing him and thinking he needed to go out thus only ever responding to him if he needed to toilet and ignoring any other calls for attention.

We also used a word to mark the act of going to the toilet. We used the word "busy" and just before he finished we would praise him, say "busy, good boy" and then treat him. He very quickly learnt that busy meant going to the toilet and now will go out and go when given the command.

I myself have never paper trained a dog only because my goal is for it to never toilet indoors at all, always outside so have never used that method at all. Vigilance, patience, consistency  and lots of opportunities to go outside make the house training period so much easier. I always put a lead on as well and accompany them outdoors so I can be certain that they have toileted, be on the spot for instant reward and praise and to lessen the opportunities of them spending their time playing rather than toileting.

In answer to your question Gemma, I found that at roughly 3 am the pup always had some wee to do. If i accidentally missed the alarm, I found that they naturally woke around 5, got taken for a wee, but were then wide awake. By going at 3, they settled straight back to sleep and woke at around 7. I gradually stretched the time, making it later, until they went straight through. It worked well with both of mine. They werent at all bothered having the door shut. When they started being able to last all night, i started leaving the crate door open. When it was clear they were dry at night, i put the crate away, and now use only if we go visiting.

Hi,

I'm a relatively new puppy owner and this was all new to me 8 weeks ago but I used the crate straight away.  I have a miniature Schnauzer who came to us from a big litter and was therefore really missing the company of her mum and siblings.  I put the crate in the kitchen and she liked to be in there when I was cooking etc. As time went by I shut the door for short periods of time and then as I went out I would shut it again. She always went in to it of her own accord and seemed realy happy!  I used it at night and before we got her myself and my husband agreed that we didn't want her in our room and we would train her to sleep downstairs.

The first fews nights were just HIDEOUS!!  I was told that she would cry at night but it was nothing like I'd imagined!!  It was constant, without a break and was just a horrible howling sound (rather than the whimper I was expecting).  It kept us all awake for 3 nights, we bought ear plugs etc but nothing worked and she didn't seem to be getting any better.  Finally I took all my bedding downstairs and for 2 nights I slept on the kitchen floor next to her.  (Just to add that I always cover the crate with an old sleeping bag to let her associate this with night time)  This did the trick and after 2 nights she slept through from 11, when she had her last wee, until 6.30.  I have never once had to let her out for a wee in the night.  I'm sure this was maybe to do with the fact that she was on a 'wet' food and therefore didn't drink much water.

She's now brilliant and when we go off to bed, I let her out in the garden, say "Get in your bed Lola" and she goes in (with her hot water bottle and ticking clock!)  and she sleeps now until about 7.  She is 16 weeks old tomorrow.

I never used newspaper either, I have just always taken her into the garden, and we have had hardly any accidents indoors, I could probably count them on 2 hands, which I think is quite good.

I am no means an expert but I just thought someone elses opinion may be good to compare!

Best of luck and I'd be interested to hear how you get on.

Sarah

yes we've also made the agreement about not being in the bedroom and keeping the crate downstairs from the start but hearing from you my sofa may be my new bed for a couple of nights!!

will take the advice about the blanket over so can associate that with night time and clock and hot water bottle!did you wrap it in a towel or something as thinking may think its a rubber toy?!!!did she hold on through the night from day one then cos ive heard you need to set an alarm to get up in the night?all dogs are different and hopefully mines more like yours!!well done you and fingers crossed for me!!any other tips or suggestions let me know, all greatly appreciated!!
Gem

Gemma, I've kept my pups in a box near my bed for the first week or so, then gradually move it to the landing.
The pups have just left ther mother and siblings and must be so lonely so if they cry they can hear my voice but I wouldn't touch them.
My dogs were easy to housetrain and I didn't get up during the night.
I couldn't leave a pup to cry as I didn't leave my children but we're all different :rolleyes: 

The hot water bottle is a special 'dog' one that was given to me by a friend!  It's heated up in the microwave and is solid with a cotton cover on it, basically a puppy couldn't bite through it, it's much too hard.  It's still warm when I go to her bed in the morning, I think it stays warm for about 12 hours!

I never set the alarm and the earliest she woke was 5.45 but she only did that for 2 mornings.  She was sleeping from 11 until 6.30 when she was about 9-10 weeks old.

Keep me posted as to how your doing.  Let me know which puppy you ended up choosing as I have also replied to your other post!

Take care, Sarah

wow thats so impressive!!yes will do!thanks

oh and if you find the hot water bottle on the net send me the link!x

Hi Gemma

could you drop off a blanket, soft toy or item of clothing with the breeder to leave with the puppy, dam and siblings before collecting her?  That way she will have something smelling familiar of her previous "home" for you to take back with her when you collect her :)  Keep it wrapped in a plastic bag and put into the crate when you get her home and this will make a huge difference to her acceptance of the crate along with the other useful advice and experiences you've been given :)

regards, Teri

Thanks.  the breeder said she is going to give me a blanket with the mums smell on it so that's good.
Thanks

The website is www.snugglesafe.co.uk.  There are various ones on there but I'm sure the basic will be adequate, as that's what I've got!