I saw on sky news today that there has been another dog attack, thankfully nobody is dead but a pit bull/staffy was involved and 4 adult males injured in Carlisle.  This seems to be a really bad time of year for attacks, possibly linked to the change in routine for everyone, a lot more alcohol, different people in houses etc.  Another tragedy and apparently the dog was already dead when the police arrived, which is bizarre.

Dogs like the SBT are often coming into vets/rescues in this season with bad injuries from drunken beatings they recieve over the holiday from bad owners :(
A friend of a friend used to do it when he was drunk, before I called the RSPCA on him and the dog was rehomed.
Maybe they were goding it and it turned on them?

SBT's are one of the most loyal dog a person can own (They are nicknamed the nanny dog after all) so they never attack people unless they are brought up in a destructive way. :(

Rach please, I'm sorry I really really don't want to sound picky with a fellow Stafford owner, but you cannot possibly say that all staffords never attack people unless they're brought up in a destructive way....
I know in a lot of bite/attack cases it turns out that the dog was mistreated in some way, but you know illness, injury, hereditary disorders (ie L2) could contribute to a dog 'turning' at worst, or at least altered behaviour.

I'm in complete agreement that they can be one of the most loyal breeds and very affectionate...

If you work with rescue, then maybe, as I have, seen some Staffords/crosses that are completely untrained, that would or could be seen as uncontrollable? 

With the right care, training and so on, it is possible to turn a dog like that around, but crikey, some of the recent cases of bites/attacks we have seen - are the general public who don't know the breed as we do, really going to see it like that?

I'm really not having a pop, I just think the some members of the public are so fixated on this hype against 'dangerous' dogs, that we have to be really really careful.
:-(

No worries Tracey. :)

I should have been more specific and said a SBT will never bite a person unless they are badly treated or have some unknown genetic defect or disorder that isnt noticed before the attack happens.
That seems more what I meant to say.

As with all breeds you can never say never, but I can honestly hands up say that I have never felt threatened around any staffie at any point, They were the breed that made me want a dog. Maybe I have been lucky, but then Im one of those who when they see a dangerous dog or an incontrollable dog doesnt fear it but wants to help the dog instead with training and to be able to live a social life again.

But I totally agree Tracey we do have to be careful :(
I dont see to this day how people can damn SBT's so aggressivly when Shiu Tzus are biting child s faces and causing serious injury as well for example, surely it doesnt matter what breed it is when it comes to a dog being aggressive but it seems it would as the same breeds are only ever featured on the news :(

The breeds that are featured in the news are the ones that can do the most damage, plain and simple.  

No matter how hard a Yorkie tries there is no way they can inflict the same level of injury that a SBT or a Rottie or any large dog/dog with good jaw strength can do. 

We're dealing with a story being "newsworthy" here, hence the breeds that get damned are the ones that inflict injuries severe enough for the press to sensationalize it.

with a small child it doesnt matter the size of thre dog as c dog biting a childs face is going to do serious damage what ever.
Obviously the bigger breeds do worse, but I think that smaller dogs are more dangerous as they always snap and nip and get away it because theyre cute or too small to punish, small nips and full bites from a small dog are just as bad as a child is a fragile thing and no one should be leaving theyre children alone with any dog any size.

When will people wake up!

Rach,

I did not say it does not matter when a small dog bites - child or adult.  My comment only related to why some breeds are deemed "newsworthy" when they bite and others are not. The fact is that an SBT or a Rottie or a Golden can do much more damage with one quick bite than a Yorkie could do with many bites.  Not to mention, an adult can much more easily stop a small dog attacking than they could a large or more powerful dog - so I suspect small dogs get stopped before severe damage is done.  Not that small dogs bite any less often than large dogs.

Small dogs are not more dangerous, they are "less dangerous" in terms of their ability to harm - which is exactly why they get away with it far too often by indulgent/ignorant owners.

My reply wasnt aimed at you I was simply stating what I thought on the matter. :)

I never said you said it doesnt matter as of course if you dont already know that theres something wrong like you said later on in your post! :D

I just want people to stop scapegoating these beautiful breeds.

Edited to add - Too a child one bite is the same as another and most children are scared of little dogs opposed to big ones as they know little ones are far more unpredictable!

Edited to add - Too a child one bite is the same as another and most children are scared of little dogs opposed to big ones as they know little ones are far more unpredictable!

Not sure where these opinions come from Rach..  A child doesn't know what size of breed is more unpredicable that the other and children and not more scared of little dogs over larger dogs.   A child who is scared of dogs is probably scared of them all. Adults who are fearful of dogs will generally be more scared of larger dogs.   Well apart from particular breed fears. I am unsure of Staffies and Rotties and would never approach one ever that I did'nt know.

And to a child I can assure you one bite is not the same as another.

Lets be sensible here folks :-)

i think rach85 ment that as far as the development of a fear goes one bite is the same as another, which it is. if a childs attacked by a pom its going to be nervous with any dog after that. "I am unsure of Staffies and Rotties and would never approach one ever that I did'nt know"- i wouldn't approach ANY dog i didn't know without the owners permission unless i had to (e.g. i took a stray staffie home a couple of months ago).

[tt i wouldn't approach ANY dog i didn't know without the owners permission unless]

Sorry my wording again I actually meant I would cross the street rather than approach one one walking or move to another part of my walking route.

with a small child it doesnt matter the size of thre dog as c dog biting a childs face is going to do serious damage what ever.
Obviously the bigger breeds do worse, but I think that smaller dogs are more dangerous as they always snap and nip and get away it because theyre cute or too small to punish, small nips and full bites from a small dog are just as bad as a child is a fragile thing and no one should be leaving theyre children alone with any dog any size

I agree with you about no children should be left alone with dogs but disagree about small dogs being more dangerous. Having always had both opposites of the extreme.

Small dogs do not " always" snap and nip or get away with it.    Poor training on any dog size is dangerous but a smaller dog is not likely to kill a child.

At the end of the day a bite is a bite, it hurts, draws blood and scars a child possibly physicalluy and mentally for life.
A child in my expierance finds the lil dogs too quick and jumpy, where as the bigger breeds are more slow and soft, thats what I meant Blue, you dont have to take everything I say absolutly litrally.

A child shouldnt be afraid of dogs in the first place if the parent has been responsible, same with the dogs.
And no one should approach a dog they dont know, its common sense folks ;)

<A child shouldnt be afraid of dogs in the first place if the parent has been responsible>

My youngest child is very wary of dogs, and I assure you I have been perfectly responsible. Every child is different, as is every dog. My eldest son has no qualms about dogs at all, in fact he is hilariously bossy with my friend's BMD and GSD - at 5.5, he is already very confident and assertive with dogs. Whereas my youngest son, a year younger, always cries and worries, when we first get there, about the "Dods gettin' me".... once he has been there ten  minutes he's fine.

Exactly and these are often guarding type breeds which is also the other issue being question, why guarding breeds are used as family pets.

i'm sorry whats wrong with having a guarding breed as a pet? as long as owners are responsible with them and know the nature of their breed i don't see it as a problem. if your going down the "why have something thats not for its purpose" route why have any dog but a toy breed? they were all bred with certain skills in mind that very few dogs now actively perform

Sorry if I confused you, I didn't personally say at this time I thought there was anything wrong with owning any breed in particular but the question certainly being raised in the media isn't just Rottie oriented, the question has also been raised why families have guarding breeds in general.

well... we havea guarding breed because they are loving and people orientated, we like their composition, we like their docility with those they love (and pretty much everybody else), we like their logical (ok stubborn) behaviour, we like their quiet (ours is not a noisy breed), we like their dependability and patience (particularly with children), we like their "wrinkled when interested" expressive faces, we like the funny sound somewhere between a sigh and a growl they make when they are really contented, my sister and i as kids really liked how they would quite happily pull us along in a sled when it snowed. my boyfriend likes how our wee one melts into a puddle at his feet till he cuddles her. my dad likes how our eldest insists on having her paw on his leg when he's sitting watching tv, my nephew also likes how she will always sleep next to him and (so he says) "eats bad dreams"... sorry for making this a personal issue but it is one. a ban on guarding type breeds as pets would deprive owners like my family of a breed they have loved and raised for, in my case, a lifetime. why not have guarding breeds if they are properly maintained and trained?

Thing is almost any size of dog can inflict serious injury to a toddler,a dn even kill.  A few years ago a Jack russell killeed a baby in a baby seat.

exactly! if your going to try and ban guarding breeds why not breeds with a high prey drive? they are surely just as likely to get wound up when i child is running around

Or ban families with young children from owning all herding and droving breeds, who not uncommonly herd the children and get annoyed when they don't co-operate? Or all terrier breeds to whom the crying of a young baby can resemble the squeak of vermin and can trigger an over-reaction.

see? the restrictions can go on and on

Yep we would end up with the kind of restrictions they have in some places in the US where only dogs under 20 pounds are allowed to be owned, or laws restricting all dogs over 40 cm (14 inches) to being on lead and muzzled in public, as they are in some German provinces.

Personally I wouldn't want to own any small breed.  I tread on the Dads cat often enough without owning something small.

I dont want to own a small breed, I looked after my friends Pug cross and I kept stepping on the poor thing while he was here. I like the idea of temperment testing before being allowed to breed and also a test before being allowed to own any of the guarding breeds. Until they get rid of puppy farmers who will sell puppies to anyone with their only concern for money I cant see things improving. I hate the thought of keeping my two on lead and muzzled at all times in public, why should I and other responsible owners be punished because some people who own these dogs havent got two brain cells to rub together.
Mary

only proper small breed i'd have is a frenchie, not a small breed fan either. i like something a bit stocky. "I like the idea of temperment testing before being allowed to breed and also a test before being allowed to own any of the guarding breeds", i agree, but why only guarding breeds? as has been said earlier in the thread any breed can do damage so why not a test for any dog owner? better not only for those poor people who have run ins with 'bad dogs' (read idiot owners) but better for the dogs to, they don't end up in places unsuited to their upkeep

Rach have you seen my story of my freinds staffie who attacked my daughters freind whilst out walking. Unprovoked.   It still shakes me every time I think about it .

No Blue, I didnt hear of that :( What happened?

I dont think people who have young families should be allowed Rotties or boisterous guard dog breeds.
Same as it breaks my heart when I see a huskie in a normal family who dont have any idea of how much exercise it actully needs to stay sane and they more often then not have behavioural problems dont they due to not being challenged enough.

Think this should take you to it Rach

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?pid=867843;hl=staffie;hlm=and#pid867843

My Friend has always had Dobermans (doesn't breed) and they have always been wonderful with the children except one, who when he showed unacceptable dominance issues with her child had to be put to sleep.  He had shown signs of being dominant and resentful of those he didn't like and did snap at me when I inadvertently put myself in a dominant position over him.  My Friend never took any chances, but on this occasion eh knocked the child to the ground and menaced him, thankfully my Friend was there and shouted for him to lie still, and straight away got him out of the situation.

Her five others had always been fantastic with children even though she didn't have her own, and her present bitch despite having fear aggression problems on lead and appears to be agoraphobic, is as reliable and loving as you could wish with her 3 year old son and new baby.  The same little boy is frightened by my puppy as she is still bouncy. 

The owner has been vigilant and sensible as well as loving her dogs.  She does regret that her first five dogs are not around now with the children as they had always been so loving with her nephews and nieces ans my kids, but always always supervised.  They were always put out of the room children were in if she was not in the room.

your right about that, it's so worrying the way breeds like the staffy and rotties are being portryed in the media. i really hope they are not banned as many seem to wish.

Kate I dont think that qualifies as a fear, thats just being worried about dogs and even tho you may have been good other parents and theyre dogs may have not been.
A fear is  something which renders you absolutly unable to be around the thing that you fear and often the person becomes hysterical, cries and or flees the situation, thats not what youre describing at all, just being worried is normal as theyre young and dont know what to do, or if theyre safe.

Astarte I really hope nothing comes of all this as well, and no one was saying that they shouldnt be around families, but not everyone is as responsible as others and dont train the dog or set limits and thats how accidents happen :(

I was terrified of my friend's Irish setters as a small child, purely because they jumped all over me and licked me - I would be trying to burrow into the corner of the sofa trying to get away from them. But now I know they are one of the most beautiful gentle breeds and I seriously considering getting one when I was choosing a breed. :-)

Blue I just read your post and its disturbing :(

With every breed there seems to be the odd one or 2, that just behave completely out of character it would seem and blow eveyone back.

When I was very young, about 7, my aunties Springer Spaniel Lady launched a vicious attack on me, I had done nothing apart from stand up from the sofa to get a drink and whoosh! it was on me like lightening, attatched herself self to my wrist and shook me like a rag doll, after I got her off my wrist (Or rather my dad kicked it rather hard off me)  she launched again and got hold of my hair as I was only a child and short and pulled a chunk out before realising there wasnt any flesh attatched to it so launched on my leg!!!!!
The dog was checked over but not PTS, I never went round again!
I was severley traumitised and still carry the scars to this day (Nice long one up my leg), but I dont hate all Spaniels for it, I HATE that one dog, thats what people have to remember that it was the one dogs fault, and my Auntie had the cheek to say I had provoked it!! .  same as we cant blame germans now for the war, even tho theyre ancestors started a war, see what I mean?
I still hate Springers to this day but wont be horrible or not stroke one if its a good dog, Im a tiny bit wary of course as once bitten twice shy! :)

Another thing is why do people go into such denial when theyre dog attacks someone rather then see the dog has a problem? I know the shock would have an effect, but if the eveidence is staring you in the face.....

I dont think people who have young families should be allowed Rotties or boisterous guard dog breeds.
Why not?????
I have had a Rottie cross since I was 20 before my youngest was born, and have had a Full Rottie since my youngest was 7. And even if I had a baby now, I would still have Rotties, even if Ebba died I would get another one.
My children have NEVER been bitten by my dogs. They respect them and love them.
We have stayed with a mate that has upwards of 10 dogs all together including German Shepherds and have had no problems at all because my children know how to respect dogs and I have not been foolish enough to leave them on their own with dogs that are not used to children.
Why should people with young families have to have smaller dogs???
This comes back to :-
Its the HUMANS that need educating NOT being told they are not allowed certain breeds etc

Also a point, at the age of 15 I was looking after 30 Irish Setters 2 Briards and a few others while the owner was showing or corn carting. Now these are big dogs, but were all bred for TEMPREMENT before anything else. So at the age of 15 I could walk into the kennels and look after them, bath them, etc etc and they never even growled at me. The most I got was klicked to death as they jumped up me!!!! Thats the difference, the brteeding, the socialising and the up bringing. NOT the dog.
Lea :)

lea i'm with you, we've had the bullies since before i was born and grew up around my aunties rotties and frenchies to, as did her three kids and now my nephew- never a problem, train the dog, train the kids. unless there is something very wrong with the dog there shouldn't be a problem.i hate this scaremongering about beautiful but misunderstood and abused (by poor breeding and owning) breeds

god thats awful. what a scare. i'm glad it didn't put you off the breed totally though, your openminded enough not to judge them all by the same measure- after all not everyones a psycho because there are serial killers around. only dog that has ever bitten me was a min poodle, didn't put me off dogs though, i went home to cuddle my bullies instead :)

'but I dont hate all Spaniels for it, I HATE that one dog' next paragraph  'I still hate Springers to this day' ??

I don't personally have a problem with any breed but I do have a problem with those that own certain breeds in my area and those that say 'hes a puppy, means no harm, he wont bite' as their dog has my dogs head in their mouth (happened just recently with a bulmastiff offlead with a teenage lad in the 'public' park). I now carry a large stick that I would not hesitate to use in future.(unfortunately)
It is a fact that some people shouldn't own dogs and it is up to those who love their breeds to ensure that their breed deosn't end up in the wrong hands. I love my own dogs to bits but I would never say that none of their breed would bite unless poorly brought up.
Angela

I should have been more specific and said a SBT will never bite a person unless they are badly treated or have some unknown genetic defect or disorder that isnt noticed before the attack happens.
SBTs are being churned out at an alarming rate with little regard to anything but profit and are saturating the country.With such a massive proliferation of substandard examples, how can you possibly make such a sweeping statement when you cannot possible substantiate it.
A pattern is emerging though which can be recognised.You, as a self-styled authority on the breed (when you have owned precisely one) are willing to state as fact things which are just your opinion. What next? Are you going to open a garage, you've owned a car?

it think she was refering to well bred and owned ones toolz, not the mass produced ill bred and poorly trained ones. the breed standard for the staff says "affectionate especially with children"- these dogs are very very poor speciments then

Toolz you are the one who has come thundering in making accusations of an authoritive nature, let alone stating that the breed are not what I say which is a loving breed which usually do not bite people, so who is doing the damage???????????? You are.

Astartz It was very scary but like you say I wont damn the whole breed for it, like you say when you encounter a bad dog it makes you love your own even more! :)

Lea I was only stating that people who dont understand dogs shouldnt take on the bigger breeds unless they know what they are capable off, I have no doubt your Rotties are brillioant as you are a responsible dog owner and probably wouldnt leave a small child alone with a 15 stone Rottie! :)

Astarte you hit it on the head :) ;)

I should have been more specific and said a SBT will never bite a person.

'A SBT' I believe you wrote.What about the 30 litters which are advertised on the Kennel Club litter list in my region alone? Won't any of them bite? You totally missed the point, well bred, carefully planned, lovingly reared examples of any breed can usually be predicted to fit the breed standard.
By the way I am authoritative: having bred, owned and trained many, many dogs including many bull breeds ( in fact pretty well known for it) but I would not presume to say that all of my breed would behave in a certain way. AND that comes from someone who's been in a breed for nearly 30 years. 

i think rach was just being general, do we need to be so minutely specific? as loki's mum says in her post on another part of the board do we need to keep such a close eye on our p's and q's. we all understand that there can be bad apples in any breed, i'm sure you'll agree if you've trained such a variety. everyone is entitiled to their views, though i'm sure rach is not being as naive as your assuming her to be from her post. as to the 30 litters advertised in your region are all of them of good quality? as we all know sadly kc registration does not guarantee a well bred animal. on another note, there must be a lot of breeders in your area, there are only 2 or 3 kennels i've found up my way (and i mean all of scotland) who seem to have nice, quality staffs (no offence to any scottish staffy breeders out there, perhaps i've not found you yet!)

Astarte,
The whole point of my reply was about the principal of stating ones opinion as fact on this Information Exchange. All very well when given by experienced people in a measured way.
The point of my post was that no-one can say catagorically how a breed will behave; especially in one that is being ruined by massive over-breeding. By all means let us all feel free to give an opinion.
The OP makes me very heavy -hearted because some of the loveliest dogs I have known have been SBT and Rottweilers.
I live in the south (of England )and when I last looked there were over 30 litters on the KC litter list, that's just one region in one quarter.
It is so shocking to go into cities these days and see almost every little group of 'lads' with their chav accessory..... a SBT... this problem seems to be running away with us and it's so sad.

Rach85, a friendly word of advice, what you type on forums comes across in different ways to what its meant.
When you type a post, go back and re read it and think how it will be put across, as you are having to back track on what you have written alot, and I dont think its because you meant what you origionally put, I think you are wording things wrong ;) ;)
Lea :) :)

I live on an estate and Staffies are EVERYWHERE :rolleyes:

You see them all over the place, being walked by moronic-looking youths with the arse of their jeans round their knees... also by Vicki Pollard lookey-likeys, trailed by a couple of dozen ill-nourished looking kids.

They all like to dress these dogs in nice, tasteful, studded collars or harnesses, with the obligatory Chavtastic Burberry neckerchief. Or else they don't bother with a lead at all, and  wander along  grunting  "Tyson, come 'ere for f***s sake"   over their shoulder every so often.

Tyson is a popular name for a Staffie round these parts. Along with Arnie :rolleyes:

and sadly I'm afraid that these are the sort of people who shouldn't own them at all :-(

My poor dogs :-(

Off topic but, my two have 'normal' names :-)  Alphonso (after Rudolph Valentino - Alphonso being his middle name and Tessie - from Tess of the Durbervilles)

Tessies Tracey,
You sound just like the SBT combos I've known over the years... nice person with normal dogs. It's a crying shame what is happening to the poor breed.

Tessies Tracey,
You sound just like the SBT combos I've known over the years... nice person with normal dogs. It's a crying shame what is happening to the poor breed.

I sure try to be tooolz!  thank you :-) I just think I'm a normal dog owner

Oh they're good names!

There are a lot of  "Deefers"  round our way, too. I mean, no offence to anyone on here with a Deefer but, come on, it just isn't witty unless you were the very FIRST PERSON EVER to call your dog it... otherwise, you're just copying and trying to sound witty. And if you insist on wearing Burberry and wearing your trousers round your knees, trust me - NOBODY thinks you're witty  :rolleyes: