I would love one but we opted for the SBT instead, So our walks are calm in the sense of no other dogs!
Our girl is constantly on the run, She loves her free roaming time! :)

Don't ever get any saluki lurchers then...

Don't ever have a GSD either......

I have seen so many puppies running loose and being complete terrors from being let off too soon,

No again -it cannot have been too soon! Show me ANY puppy that will leave your side during the first few walks at 10 weeks of age. And I'm not talking about 12, 13, 14 weeks -I am talking 8 to 10 weeks start.

Does your good recalls include being able to call the dog off if a rabbit runs a foot in front of it? A bitch in season? Etc?

Don't forget this is a public forum, you could do a lot of harm to novice owners who will go on to believe young pups must be kept on a lead for months and only trained in the back garden.

And my Norwegian Elkhounds, especially Jozi who is still not reliable at 8 years old.  What is reliable is their good manners with other dogs and people, and their recalls (except Jozi's) are OK, but on their terms, as it is in theri nature to range ahead and come back to Mum once they have done some hunting, sticking close to you is anathema, recall them they come back and seem to ask you what :D.

Some breeds like to keep close to their owners even without much training, others are real free spirtis adn either very challenging or impossible to train a relieble recall, with the odd notable exception, owners of these breeds either never let them off lead or only in safe areas large enough to contain them safely until they do recall.  Those that are also dog dominant or have extreemly high prey drives are just not let off at all.

I believe people will make there own decisions I never force my opinion on to people, unlike some, and if they want my advice they take it, if they dont then they dont and we carry on.
Dont try and fob onto me the responsibilities of other dog trainers who read this post, everyone has theyre own minds to do what they like to do.
Its my way of training and it makes me and my dog happy, so what is your problem with it? Even our trainer said dont let young pups off!!
With our second dog I will have more expierance in traaining recall and he will be trained quicker and we are taking him to puppy obedience classes so everything will be much quicker.

Mitz will not be distracted by game or rabbits and she is reliable on recall, i dont want to have keep bigging her up too, convincing you she has recall?  I dont mind or care for that matter if you believe in your way and not mine why not like me just say ''OK your way works for you??''

A puppy will find something more intresting in you when outside and if they dont then I would say something is wrong with it as every puppy has there nose in everything and anything, everyone knows this its common knowledge so you muct have magic powers to make them stick to you like glue and not even wander off for a sniff or play.
And to be honest Mitz had more fun being on extending lead it sounds since you insist on yours always being alone, right next to your side and not allowed to explore the big world!

Brainless once again hit it on the head with this explanation
Some breeds like to keep close to their owners even without much training, others are real free spirtis adn either very challenging or impossible to train a relieble recall, with the odd notable exception, owners of these breeds either never let them off lead or only in safe areas large enough to contain them safely until they do recall.

Now this shows not all dogs will respond to the same training, so Marianne im sorry if I seem rude I dont mean to be, but your method is not the be all and end all of training and I thinks its dangerous!!!!

I just wanted to add we didnt only train Mitz in the backgarden for recall, we also did extended lead/long lead recall on her walks in the field.
When she was about 6 months old we intregrated in some off lead in an isolated place and by around 8 months old she was allowed permanant off lead fun! :) :)

A puppy will find something more intresting in you when outside and if they dont then I would say something is wrong with it as every puppy has there nose in everything and anything, everyone knows this its common knowledge so you muct have magic powers to make them stick to you like glue and not even wander off for a sniff or play.

Jesse (American Cocker) was taken out for the first time at 13 weeks old. And I can honestly say that for about the first 4 weeks, he never ventured further than 2 foot away from me, unless I threw a toy, then he'd fetch it and bring it straight back. I also had to really encourage him to interact with dogs... even then he wouldn't go too far. In fact, it was so bad that I had to put a bell on his collar so I could hear when he was literally under my feet to avoid treading on him.

Having said that, being used to lurchers that do big distances away from me without thinking twice, I really wanted to make sure that Jesse would hang around and not go too far... and to this day - though he is generally a fairly independent character - he will only go so far and then return to me. I never had to "keep" him close and stop him from doing thing, he just stayed close naturally and I encouraged it.

I agree that the very odd puppy will not stay close, but that's why I always advise to let the puppy off for the first time in totally secure areas (e.g. tennis courts, fully fenced areas etc.) to see their reaction or to put them on a long line so they can be retrieved swiftly if necessary. The vast majority of puppies (probably as many as 95%) will benefit from early off-lead walks though... And most people that have puppies on lead don't put the training in as they have full control of the pup on lead and then just let them off at 6 or 8 months old thinking that it should work now... which of course it doesn't! If a puppy is off lead (in safe areas of course), the incentive to work on recall is also much higher than if they are on-lead because it becomes a necessity!

Vera

Like its been said before all dogs are different. :) And dont we know it! :D

Marianne is saying that her one method will work on allllllll dogs in the entire world and I dont think thats right.

We have an SBT and if we had let her off lead at that young of an age she would have been off quicker then you could say ''Wheres my dog!'' lol
All dogs have different personalities. some are calm and like to be cose, some are nutters and hop everywhere!

So Marianne if I came to have a puppy from you and said ' we dont believe in leads with young puppies so we are going to let him off lead as soon as we get him at 8 weeks old, hopefully he'll stay close!'' what would you say? Would you feel comftable in letting us have a puppy? Or would you think us unresponsible and untrustworthy and not thinking of the pups welfare?

Why are you suggesting that anyone planning to let their young pup offlead early, is necessarily untrustworthy, and not thinking of the pup's welfare?

Its theoritical question :rolleyes:

I am asking what she would think.

Why would she think anything in particular? :rolleyes:

I actually support Marianne, if my breed are taken into the forest (or a large enclosed safe area in the UK, they can be taught to hunt and to recall reasonably reliably, if left longer they pretty much will be like my Jozi (who I had back at 8 1/2 months)  My most reliable ones have been off lead very young, much after 3 months it starts to be harder, and by six months Mum is plain boring. 

Unfortunately what they consider recall and keeping reasonably close to their owner is not quick and formal enough for our dangerous cities and parks or farmland crisscrossed by roads. 

They tend to think they know better and inclined to think of a better way to do things.  they work with you not for you.  Without this independence and self reliance though far more of them would never return from the hunt, where they have to think on their feet and avoid getting trampled and mauled, and find their owner again in miles of Forest.

I support Marianne as well, thats what im saying!!!!!

Im an trying to get across there is more then 1 way to train a dog, that is all.

Please remember that I am also a half novice owner and if you remember back to when you were learning I bet you were all like me as well! :d :D inquisitive but little argumentative and trying to understand and get your own theory across! As we dont get anywhere in the development in training by bickering the oldcases but discussing new ones! :D

I support all methods of training and the people that do it, as long as the dog is unharmed, happy and not a serious trouble maker then good luck to em and carry on in the way that obviously suits you, youre household and your dog best ;) ;)

Love to all of you and thanks for the advice as well, maybe I will try this with our new boy, but if he runs off I will be coming back to you lot and expecting you to come and help me find him you can bet on that!! :D ;)

>Please remember that I am also a half novice owner and if you remember back to when you were learning I bet you were all like me as well!   inquisitive but little argumentative and trying to understand and get your own theory across! <

Actually Rach quite the opposite. I was a novice so I listened to what experienced people told me. I'm very smart and very capable in most things I do in life - so what, I knew diddly-squat about dogs depsite my books, behaviour and training course. I certainly wouldn't argue against something I hadn't any experience with myself. In fact my first posts on CD were limited to help on the Foo board mostly. :-D I still don't offer advice on many questions as I don't have a lot of experience compared to most on here. It's only been by soaking up what advice has been given to me that I've improved as a trainer and learned more about owning dogs. That doesn't mean I'd blindly follow anything said on the internet. Common sense and the grey-cell filter are always on but if you argue less and listen more you may be even better than you are. :)

Since I am now working on the training of grand total of puppy number two (and puppy number one was the perfect little girl who did everything right so I didn't learn much about training from her :) ) this thread is very interesting to me.  I've seen how effective the "run and hide while pooch is off leash" technique works on my previous three dogs so I fully support it.  But how far, I wonder, do more experienced trainers think a puppy will go?  Oban is a bold, outgoing, confident, tail always up little fellow.  He will easily leave me 100 feet behind him.  Is that usual in such a young puppy?  To go that far?  He's 11 weeks old.  Mind you, that's with the decks stacked in favour of his leaving me as he was heading back to the car when he did that.  On a new trail he won't go so far.  My problem is that with the snow depth it is not easy to keep finding new places to take him that are not frequented by other dogs (not fully vacc. yet) and where we won't be killed by crazy snowmobilers.

Please remember that I am also a half novice owner and if you remember back to when you were learning I bet you were all like me as well!   inquisitive but little argumentative

I can honestly say that I was never like that.  I learned lots of things from lots of people.  I had 19 dogs at one time.....it didn't make me an expert...it made me seek help and advice and learn from it.
I have had all those dogs.....and sometimes I still need the help that I get from people here, we all do.  You never stop learning.

I read this thread earlier and decided it wasn't for me and that more than enough good advice based on sound experience had already been proffered but then it started to niggle (yeah, I'm only human ) :D

>A puppy will find something more intresting in you when outside and if they dont then I would say something is wrong with it as every puppy has there nose in everything and anything

Hate to burst your bubble on this Rach85 but young pups at the stage of having only very recently left their dam and siblings and, by that fact, having only just begun adjusting to their new and *very imporant* provider of food, comfort and protection have little or no instinctive confidence to wander far quite simply for their own protection / hard wired need for self preservation - that is a simple fact, whether you agree or not :)  Yes, admittedly as with everything, there will be the occasional pup where this most basic instinct is present to a lesser extent but this does not negate the fact that by and large puppies instinctively need the support of their owner :)

> everyone knows this its common knowledge so you muct have magic powers to make them stick to you like glue and not even wander off for a sniff or play

It seems to me from reading this thread that the above comment is more than a little exagerrated :rolleyes:  You've hardly enjoyed much support for most of your claims and while I dont doubt your belief in the methods you've used to date it may never the less be of benefit to you to embrace a little of the highly experienced advice on alternative means which have been offered politely and in good faith ;)

>Dont try and fob onto me the responsibilities of other dog trainers who read this post, everyone has theyre own minds to do what they like to do

Similar comments are regularly posted on the board under many categories for the simple reason that it IS important that those new to dog ownership and seeking help with whatever issues are steered in the direction of the most commonly experienced and recommended *successful* methods of husbandy that apply :)  Nobody is trying to "fob off" anyone else - merely to help new owners/forum members get "a feel" for what is most commonly regarded as "best practice". 

None of us know everything there is to know about anything and most of us accept that dog ownership is a life long learning curve - so please try and stay a little more open minded and avoid taking personal offence at opinions differing from your own :)

regards, Teri 

Having trained springers, pointers, gwps and a bonkers setter (all working lines), I use the method of letting them off when they are young.  They do feel insecure when too far away from you, although having said that, one pointer wasn't overly bothered but if you ran the other way, she soon got a little scared.  I would say I've got a reasonable recall, certainly enough for them to be out working.  My setter (first experience of one) is going through her adolescence phase (at over 2 years!), and has done the odd bunk but all in all, she isn't as bad as she could be.

I am of the opinion, whatever works for you.  All you can do is go on your own experiences (or others that you trust) and if they work, great.  It's when problems arise and you are determined not to alter your methods, you are on a slippery slope.

Helen

I let my CKCS off lead at ten weeks old. Never had to out & out "teach" a recall, as such, as it was imprinted in her mind from letting her off so young!

I never post must either but feel moved to on this one.

Apart from family dogs as a child, I've had 3 dogs of my own as an adult. The 1st one I lived/worked on a farm & from 8 weeks old my puppy was out with me off lead for his excercise- just doddering about doing his thing but never any further than about 3-4 feet away from me at most. Throughout his life he had an absolutely fabulous rock solid recall.Even in the most trying of circumstances for him I always knew he would not have left my side, in fact I could control him inc. speed by pointing a finger   -he would never ever pass in front of a pointed index finger! Bear in mind I was a young daft thing & never did any formal or indeed real training so I half thought that dogs were just made that way.
Cue dog no 2. Different circumstances of home & work & while he came to work with me it was not gated &  near country lane - as was home with no enclosed garden & it was middle of winter- dark cold horrible, so he was on lead most of the time. By the time I let off in the field prob about 12 - 13 weeks he was off- & has not stopped going off ever since! The worst thing I ever did, now at 5 he still can't be trusted with recall especially if he sees another dog.
Things changed with my latest puppy - I let her off right away every time & surprise surprise she never left my side. Now at the obnoxious adloescent stage her recall is the only reliable thing about her!
So in my rather limited experience I would never keep a puppy on a lead again.
BTW thse were all the same breed.

I think maybe Jetstone Jewel has a point as when I read his/her thread it made me realise we did have it really easy with Mitz.
She picked up everything really quickly and didnt take alot to train considering, but then Ive heard the SBT love to be taught things and realish in the training.
I think it was my paranoia of her running away and her being my first dog to call my own as it were made me extra protective.....hmmm think im on to something here....

With our new boy thats up and coming I can only hope that he is as good as Mitz, but I still find the idea of letting him off so young scary, and fear we may lose him which would be so devastating.
Even tho I argue my method I still do see the sense in what you say and it would be an easier way of teaching a puppy to stay close, but the notion is still scary and daunting.
Maybe in the field we use we should give it a go.....but its still daunting and thats the only reason I didnt do it before.

So to clear up exactly, we are going to be getting our pup at about 10 weeks old, is that too old?

I am eating humble pie as I realise the error of my ways as last night I had a think about all this last night and checked some books we have, but I dont regret it as such, as she was our first dog and we did pretty well first time round. And like you say it is a constant learning curve. Sorry everyone I will try and listen more in the future

To be fair those of us living in cities with only public land to use where all the dogs go we do not often have the opportunity to do it this way, as our pups do not get to go to a large enough safe area until after their vaccinations by which time this natural duckling staying close stage may be less strong, especially in the naturally independent breeds like mine, but in other less adventurous breeds will last long enough to be useful. 

Most pups of under 4 months can be easily caught up with my a human should they leg it.  I have to admit with my current youngster, with my country park being 20 minutes walk each way from em, I have not had the opportunity to let her off lead until much later, but which time she would be too big to allow uncontrolled off lead, as she would take off and want to play with other dogs and not listen, so long line for her.  with her Mum I was lucky as a friend drove us for nice walks from the word go.

Have to admit I have also been rather lazy.  With not driving I have not wanted to go such a long way with a pup on her own, and then have to go all the way home to get the others.  Training a pup to recall while the others are off lead is sabotaging my own efforts as her attention is all over the place with them.  Having them around makes her feel confident, so hiding wouldn't work, she would find one of them instead.  So I have a 12 month old pup who is tall for her sex, who really is not reliably trained off lead. 

As a result I do far more road walking than I used to as it is simply easier for me, as when I go to the park I need to keep her and her grandmother Jozi on a long line and/or Flexi.  My arms feel like the nutty professors and the two good girls get to do far too much their own thing. :D

To be honest off lead walking has just been a lot less of a pleasure since I had Jozi back 7 years ago, as despite lots of training she just will do her own thing regardless, often after a period of being very good.  This has undermined my confidence with the dogs off lead.  When her daughter was a pup I kept her on lead and the pup and the others off and pup was very good.

Over the last 2 years Jozi's selective hearing has got worse off lead since the recycling boxes and kitchen waste bins came in.  Some of the new houses backing onto the country park are not dog proof, having stiles into the park.  She has worked out that there is access to food cans and often the kitchen waste when people don't shut the lids down and will make a beeline for the rubbish bins in the park.  She then plays keep away from me.  I have had to dive after her under a bush in someones garden where she was chomping on chicken carcase.  That is without all the food waste in the park bins that have to be raided, so letting her off has become a nightmare I find myself less and less willing to face.

In the last year instead of daily off lead exercise it is hours of pavement pounding with just the odd trip off lead, as it seems just not worth the hassle.

The closest enclosed walking place is by a college and is absolutely littered with take away left overs, so another place I now avoid.  As with the recreation ground opposite my house that has gardens backing onto it, now have the worry of them going through the hedges to get to food or food cans left out.  this has only become an issue since the recycling.  Yes you have guessed it my dogs are always starving.  I tried muzzling but they just get them off, rather expensive as they return without them.

I used to so enjoy the relaxed walks with three or four dogs that I had trained as young pups, each having learnt the ropes before the next arrived, all coming back to check on Mum as soon as they had gone any distance etc.  Not only is Jozi herself frustrating, but I think her disobedience rubs off, or just means I am too distracted so the others are not quite as good as they were or might be.

I successfully got a strong recall & caught no viruses in Manchester City Centre. It can be done!

Does anyone else have a problem with scavenging and the amount of food rubbish left around that encourages the behaviour.  Very difficult to be more interesting or have better treats than the Kentucky left overs.

Mine are crafty so and so's they wait until I am pickign up poo from one of the others before headign off on a bin raid.  Mouldy bread is another problem, thrown out for the birds.

I have that problem in our own backyard because the crows throw stuff out of the compost bin.  :)  As one of the lucky ones who has acres and acres of public forest for recreation in, let me assure you it is not without it's problems.  Jet once accompanied me home with a whole deer foreleg in her mouth and another time found about a 5 lb. prime rib roast of beef, frozen and still in the wrapper.  Hunters, mushroom pickers, snowmobilers and ATVers all leave their garbage too.

No. I have a sensitive dog, she would always respond to a firm "no" as a puppy & immediate stop & follow me. I was pretty much able to keep her off other people's driveways & away from chewing gum, bones etc. with the word alone.

Lord Jozi wouldn't know sensitive if it ran her over, she is bull headed and has a skin as thick as an elephant.  disaproval etc just water of a ducks back, nothing rocks her jovial mood.  rules don't apply to her you know

Yes, my American cocker is a terrible scavenger, I'm constantly amazed he's never ended up at the vet with a blockage. Bread, KFC, rotten fish, curries, meat pies, and of course large amount of dog poo all disappear before I can shout 'leave'! :rolleyes:

Really makes walks a pleasure doesn't it

Mitz has thankfully never been intrested in rubbish enough to want too eat it.
If someone has left some leftover takeaway on the street from say a Friday night she may well lick it! UGH!

I have to say this is the only area that we found difficult with our boy. We got him a little older than usual and he hadn't had any jabs so when we finally took him outside and started his recall he was a terror and to be honest he always has been unreliable. We now live on a property that has lots of fields beyond our garden and the rabbits are always coming into our garden and when they are there he will not come back for ANY treats!

For this reason and because he is so friendly with other dogs we choose not to let him off the lead, although our garden now is so huge (and enclosed) that he is able to have free roaming time here.

I know I am a bit of a scaredy cat but I would hate to loose him!