sadly i recently heard from a friend of mine that one of her breeding bitches was diagnosed with a grade 2 heart murmur caused by a trauma of some sort, basically they are unsure what has caused it they just came home to find her collapsed and panting rapidly etc.
they took her to the vet who gave them the prognosis.
I was just wondering if people think she could still be bred from. At the time she was pregnant ( only about 1 wk to go ) she absorbed all but 1 puppy. she seemed to cope ok for the next week until whelp and ok during the whelp other than the pup getting stuck.
Obviously breeding from her if its going to be a risk to her or future puppies isnt what we want, but because of the low grade of murmur and the fact it was not inherited i'm interested to know people thoughts on the matter.
thanks.
rosemary

A 2 is not low enough to breed from  breeding dogs should be a 1 at most, and preferably show no signs of a murmur.  There is no real way to know that it wasn't inherited.  Ifher lines are very valuable to the breed what about the pup?  It may be a bette option to heat test teh puppy and breed from it if it is god enough and the lines need to be retained.

It could well be the other way round rather than a "trauma" the bitch collapsed because she already had the murmur & couldn't cope with being pregnant. There's no way that a bitch with a heart murmur should be bred from

Quite agree, unless the prior heart status was known you cannot say it was caused by pregnancy trauma.  A healthy strong bitch should not develop heart problems as a result of pregnancy and that would rule her out as breeding material for me. 

You need to encourage vigour in your lines and there is no place for poor doers as eventually this trait may be bred in unwittingly, especially is the animal concerned was a very good one.

This is why I like to know my puppies apart from birth, as any that are unthrifty shoudl nto be future breedign candidates.

Having Cavaliers I am very heart murmur aware & TBH even when I bred my GSDs & Beardies I had the bitches fully health checked for fitness, including the heart as well as the usual hips, eyes etc

Jessie, my current girl, is having all the DNA tests done & then the clinical ones & only then will I make the decision whether to spay or let her have a litter, supposing of course that she ever comes in season ;-) If I decide to breed she too will have a general health check beforehand(she had one in )October when I collected her & before Wukee comes home he'll be having a vet check by his breeders vet. He's having his eyes tested tomorrow

Breeding should only be done as you say Barbara from healthy animals.

she is nearly 5 yrs old and comes from a long line of heart clear dogs, she's had a litter before and all these puppies are heart clear in fact the breeder has one of her grand daughters and she is also clear and delivered a litter 2 days ago. the vet was very sure that it was not something she'd inherited, sadly just one of those things that happens.
of course neither of us would even consider it if we thought there was any chance what so ever that the bitch had the problem lying dormant and its just reared it's head.
does this shed anymore light?
any further opinions would be much appreciated.
i guess i feel torn, i agree any heart murmurs that a dog may have inherited i'd be de-sexing straight away, but i guess its like a dog having an accident and losing a leg, obviously it wasnt born that way therefore isnt going to pass it on to any future pups ( not that i'd recommend breeding from a 3 legged dog he he )
thanks guys.

sorry i also meant to add that sadly the pup cannot be used as he was very big being the only surviver from the trauma and he got stuck, by the time the vet got him out he was dead and  could not be revived.
: (
she has wonderful lines ( import UK ) which is why we're even thinking about it.

If she is almost 5 years old now, under normal circumstances, were she mine, I would be leaving 18 months between this whelping and any other.   But these circumstances are not normal, and in 18 months time she will be nearer 6 and a half, and that heart murmer could be more pronounced.   I certainly would not contemplate another litter, however good the lines.   Why not go back to a litter sister?

Margot

Quote: "......in fact the breeder has one of her grand daughters and she is also clear and delivered a litter 2 days ago....."

I simply would not risk another litter in case it harmed the bitch further.  If she has clear offspring then the line can be taken forward through them.

she is nearly 5 yrs old and comes from a long line of heart clear dogs, she's had a litter before and all these puppies are heart clear in fact the breeder has one of her grand daughters and she is also clear and delivered a litter 2 days ago.

But what's to say the daughter won't develop a murmur at the same age that the mum did? I had a stud cat once (well actually have still got him), a Champion that had sired a lot of kittens for me, that developed a murmur aged 5. I neutered him immediately, and then sat down and waited for his offspring to turn 5. None of them developed murmurs, in fact most of them are now around 8-9 and clear. So now I can feel fairly certain it was a one off, but back then, before the offspring was the same age as the dad when he developed it, I couldn't.

Edited to say: granddaughter I see now it was, not daughter.

I personally think you should simply re read this whole thread as the answer in my opinion is there before you.  :-)

It is very rare for a bitch to lose a litter at 8 weeks in whelp. The heart nurmour alone would put the bitch at risk especially considering she has had a bad collapse already and lost the last litter.  This is not a common occurance for a healthy bitch.

From what I have read most heart murmours that are not picked up in puppyhood are caused by degenerative valvular disorders, if it was a trauma it would I imagine it to have been a considerable large trauma, like a human in a car crash.  Would the breeder remember if she had sustined such a trauma.  Either way inherant or through trauma for me she isn't fit enough.

She has the grand daughter so has the lines. Keep two bitch from her litter or a future one, she has just had one recently so what is in that? If she is the grand daughter she must be fairly young compared to the grand-mother so a future litter should be possible.

It is easy to get caught up in line sentiment but trauma like that is not paticular good or nice for the bitch.  ( I mean the lose pups etc)

It only comes back and bites you in the bum I think later on. 

If theyre is any signs of illness you shoudnt really breed from the bitch, let alone with something as serious as a heart murmur is what Im thinking.
Who could say if she could even carry the litter for the full term with her bad heart? And then you would risk losing another litter and possibly your girl as well, :( that thought alone would put me right off.

Its one of those situations where a perfect bitch is brought for breeding and then turns out to be infertile, or the perfect stud dog who turns out to be producing not fit young, those breeders just accept the fact they have a stunning dog that they cant breed from but they would never get rid of it so have to live with it, tough times but you have to do what is best for your individual dog and not try to save those lines for the whole of the breed at the serious risk of your dogs health, puppies health and possible loss of life as well :(