Hi.

I had a litter of 7 pups born on Monday morning, they all seemed perfectly healthy. First pup arrived at 9.30 am, the last at 1.40pm, roughly 4 hours between first and last.
The last pup to be born seemed very tired, wasn't realy interested in sucking. I spent hours trying to get her to feed from her mother as it's so important in the first 24 hours. I eventually gave her some Royal Canine puppy milk from a dropper as i thought it was about time she got something into her. Two hours later i tried her on her mother and she got going right away, i was delighted.

I have crated the pups, they are in a box under a heat lamp. Their dam can lean in and wash them whenever she wants. These are a large heavy breed that can be quite clumsy at the best of times so crating is the safest option to avoid a pup getting crushed.

The pups are put on their mother to feed every 2 hours, round the clock.

Everything was going perfectly, they were all strong, sturdy pups. Tuesday night i finished a feed with at 3am, all had fed fine and were sound asleep in their box with mum lying next to it.
When i next checked them at 5am, one was dead. No idea why or how it happened, this was a big strong pup that was feeeding great. I tried everything but couldn't revive him, gutted.

That was Tuesday night, i was afraid to take my eyes off the rest of the pups all day yesterday.

Again, every 2 hours they were put on their mother to feed, all seemed fine. They finished a feed at 4.15 this morning,all had full bellies and were sleeping soundly, with mother sleeping next to their box. When i checked them at 6.30 this morning i found another one dead, couldn't revive her. It was the one that was slow to feed when she was first born.

I'm realy gutted at the moment, this was / is a smashing litter, i realy liked every single pup.

I'm going to contact the vet to see if i can get a PM done, i need to know what's happening to them.

I have no experience of fading puppy syndrome, so if anyone out there thinks that this sounds like FPS please let me know. If anyone has any other ideas, please let me hear them. I have to get to the bottom of this, i have 5 little beauties left and i've no intention of losing any more.

Thanks for reading, looking forward to your replies

"I have crated the pups, they are in a box under a heat lamp. Their dam can lean in and wash them whenever she wants. These are a large heavy breed that can be quite clumsy at the best of times so crating is the safest option to avoid a pup getting crushed.

The pups are put on their mother to feed every 2 hours, round the clock."

How does the bitch react to this as mine would be going frantic if they couldn't constantly have their pups with them.

In my experience the pups in the first three days need the stimulation that this gives them physically and they suckle almost constantly not as little as every two hours.  That way they get they colostrum they need and I assume get Mums milk going.

My appologies if this is not your first litter and if this regime works i your breed, then I have no answers.

FPS is largely guesswork as regarding cause, but often an infection of some kind.

and they suckle almost constantly not as little as every two hours.  That way they get they colostrum they need and I assume get Mums milk going.


I too am totally puzzled as to how this works, I've hand reared a litter myself and every two hours via bottle is fine, but when a pup is to mother there is no way to judge how much feed is being taken and I quite agree pups will suckle almost continually, colostrum from teat can come out faster or slower than bottle feed, a pup may take a large fast flow and need to rest for a while it does not mean it is full but digesting ready for more some 20 mins later. Or a pup may feed with little flow and become tired and then try for more some minutes later. Every 2 hours is for bottle feeding new borns, not teat fed.

When you have to seperate pups from mother for illness, no milk, or poorley pup it is understandable but to interfere with nature otherwise is something I don't understand.

And as for warmth there is nothing more acurate than the mothers own temperature and siblings bodies.

FPS can be many things as already said, but temperature, feed and infection are generally the cause of most frequent causes.

These pups should be with their mother, sorry to repeat again, but I don't understand this way of breeding at all. :-(

Hi,

She reacts fine, she's happy to sleep beside the crate as long as she can see them. It's her first litter, she knows no different.

Believe it or not i know loads of people who use this method with large breeds. The barrier around the whelping box isn't much use when you have a 10 stone bitch lying on a 2lb puppy, the damage is done in seconds.

They suckle every 2 hours for approximately 1 to 1 1/2 hours, i would say that's as constant as any other pup who's with it's dam full time. The pup is only removed from the dam when it falls asleep, and yes she can still stimulate the pups, she can lean in and and lick /clean them whenever she wants.

No it's not my first litter.

Please be very careful with heat lamps they were designed to keep barns warm for chicks therefore they is a big hot spot and then the heat filters out,in a box
your puppies can not get away from the heat.
Can you not use a heat pad designed for muscle ache from Argos etc,Ive found the brilliant,I put newspaper,heatpad,then vet bed then the pups and then drape a towel over the box (but not touching the pups).
Ive got a litter at the moment and they are great being raised this way.

Are you also stimulating the pups to go the toilet?

Sorry if you already know this but if its no help to you it may help someone else.
Good luck with the rest, but watch that heat.

I've never heard of seperating pups from mum no matter what size of breed, they don't need seperating. Even large bears can rear their cubs, nothing bigger or clumsier than them, we all have to watch out for the Dam sitting on pups it is part of being a breeder, which is why for the first 2 weeks we sleep near them.

It is not just about putting them together for feeding, the Dam will wash and clean her pups constantly stimulating toileting this may be a problem being caused also bonding etc, put them back with their mother and hopefully no others will be lost.

The OP is in Ireland I think I was thinking they were in the US/Canada where it is quite common in some breeds.

It's quite common in a lot more places than Canada and the US, i know loads of people who use this method with large breeds.

It is not just about putting them together for feeding, the Dam will wash and clean her pups constantly stimulating toileting this may be a problem being caused also bonding etc,----- I know all that! The pups still get all that.

I've never heard of seperating pups from mum no matter what size of breed, they don't need seperating----- As i've said in previous replies, a lot of breeders use this method, i know loads of them, just cause you haven't heard of it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It's tried and trusted by a lot of breeders all over the world.

which is why for the first 2 weeks we sleep near them----- And if a 10 or 12 stone dog sat on your puppy while you were sleeping near it, it could well be killed instantly or severely injured wouldn't matter where you were sleeping, it would only take a split second.

put them back with their mother and hopefully no others will be lost----- With all due respect Carrington, what works for some breeds doesn't always work for others. You may not like, agree or understand it but it's a method that is widely used, so some breeders are obviously happy with it.

Then it is extremely sad that natural mothering should be subverted in this way.  I wonder if it has come to the point that breeds cannot mother their own pups or give birth without human interference then things have gone too far. 

By doing this you will be eliminating good mothering traits from your breed.  With my bitches I can't even weigh a pup without Mum taking it back from me, and have to wait until the next pup is being born and washed to be able to do it. 

I have had two bitches a bit bemused by the birthing process and take a few minutes to a few hours to get the hang of things, and have lost one pup due to crushing due to a long labour exhausting me and the bitch, but to interfere with a bitches litter to this extent is just going to far in my opinion.

Good mothering, easy whelping, natural mating behaviour are all traits to select for along with al the others.

For some reason I wasn't going to reply to this maybe it was my Xmas week thoughts of only positive posts :-)

I honestly think it is wrong to restrict a bitch like this in this manner , mine would never put up with it  , the little souls would be frantic. I have some that are frantic about someone elses puppies

:-)    I personally think it irelevant how many breeders the Poster knows who does it, it isn't right IMHO . It is not natural at all and would not have happened in the natural world.  No wonder breeders get a bad name for altering natures way so much. If a mother cannot look after her puppies without crushing them all I would not be breeding from her. ( in the natural world they may crush a pup by accident or lose a pup but we have to accept nature to and work with it)

This comment about a 10 stone pup to a 2 lb pup ( 70 times the weight of the pup)  is not quite thought out,   Proportionally most breeds of dogs will be a similar x % heavier and bigger than their pups and they don't regularly crush their pups for example.  An average westie would be 1.30 stone but pups of 0.35 lb ( 52 times the weight of the pup)

My first question would be could the whelping area possibly not big enough for this size of breed.

A friend used to breed Newfies & never lost one to being crushed/squashed by their mother. Like all responsible breeders her bitch & litter were never left alone for the first three/four weeks, she had several grown up children who helped out & I did her shopping along with other friends. IMHO if you cannot do this then you shouldn't be breeding at all no matter how big/small your bitch is

From what I understand of FPS, this isn't it - the behaviour of the pups is totally unlike the usual symptoms. There are many possibilities (internal congenital abnormalities, genetic problems etc) but I don't think keeping the dam away from them is helping them at all I'm afraid. Newborn pups need to suckle almost constantly for the first few days to get the maximum colostrum from the dam and to encourage a good supply of milk. Can you not rig up the usual pig-rail in the whelping box to help protect them from being crushed, then they can be with the dam 24/7?

I agree totally.Pups should be kept with mum.My bitch wouldn't leave the whelping bed for a wee for almost 24 hrs.She loves raw chicken wings and not even these could coax her away
Jeangenie is right they do seem to be constantly suckling for the first couple of days.I felt sorry for my bitch cos it was like they were glued on lol.
I would put the remainder of the pups in with mum and keep a very watchful eye on them.I slept on the floor next to the whelping box on a blow up mattress for a fortnight
I aged 2 years in 2 weeks lol :D

See my reply to carrington. They do suckle almost constantly. Pig rail is fine if a pup goes behind her, not much use if a pup gets stuck under mums belly, these dogs can weigh a lot, it would be like a fully gown human lying on the pup.

A lot of people use this method with giant breeds, i know some people won't agree with it, but that's life.

just wondering why you would ask for advise keiko and then not listen to it and argue it. if you know what your doing why ask? i would think a pm is the only sure way to know why they died so suddenly.

Fading puppy syndrome symptoms. From your description this isn't what caused your puppies' deaths.