hi everyone,
im going to be buying a puppy soon and want some advice on what to look out for?

i'm just having the dog as a pet and not going to be showing her or anything I'm getting a female) and not going to be breeding.  is it worth getting a KC registered pup and can someone tell me what this means as have a vague idea.  ive read that its not worth the paper its written on but is this true as have heard conflicting ideas?:rolleyes:

Also is it worth getting a pedigree and can someone also tell me exactly what this means?!!how do you notice if somewhere is a puppy farm and what other things shall i look for in a breeder?

my dog of choice is a bichon frise and the absoloute maximum i can pay is £600 which ive seen can get a puppy for and is not the cheapest as some are going for £375 in wales although ive aso heard this is where majority of puppy farms are?!is this true?

Thank you in advance for any help!!

I would contact the breed club to see about getting a list of reputable breeders. A reputable breeder will make sure that both the sire and Dam are of excellent temperaments and will have all the relevant health checks the breed has recommended.

http://www.bichonfriseclubofgb.info/

At least with  pedigree you can trace the puppies descendants which again ensures the quality and health. Not having a pedigree means you have no guaranntee of whether the puppy comes from.

so what exactly does pedigree mean?!that the family is traceable??im going to see a puppy after xmas so want to know what to look out for?i contacted the club and i had a reply and the puppies were £750 and £600 is my absoloute max!!

A pedigree, in the most basic terms, is a chart of the dog's predecessors - parents, grandparents and so on, usually back to 5 generations.  It has the predecessor's registered names (KC names), which should allow you to look back and check your pup's breeding.  It also states which dogs were show champions (both UK and abroad).

I would steer clear of £350 pups in Wales - sounds dodgy to me.  I'd steer clear of £350 pups anywhere TBH - my dobermann boy was £400 (supposedly low because he was an accident, but I don't believe that), and he is very badly bred.

Have you researched the breed?  The club can help with that, you need to know what health tests should be done and pick your breeder accordingly.  I have no idea what tests are needed for bichons (too small and fluffy for me :D), sorry.  But a good breeder will have done all the relevant tests, and be able to show you certificates to prove that.  And they'll ask you a ton of questions!

If you find a breeder who ticks all the right boxes - good quality breeding stock, all the tests done, pups raised in excellent conditions, asking loads of questions, etc, etc, then TBH I would consider saving up a little more to meet that slightly higher price - it's well worth it for peace of mind.  My boy may have been cheap, but he is not registered, and has no printed pedigree; his aprents were registered but had no tests to the best of my knowledge.  So I've no idea of his ancestry, which dogs died of what, what his parents' hips and thyroids were like, or their hearts or bleed status (all important in dobes).  It worries me a lot.

Have you considered rescue?  I would imagine with the popularity of bichons growing there would be some needing homes.

Yes you will be able to trace back all the puppies decendants :)

When you are looking at the pup you need to make sure you see both the dam and sire if possible and see how they are around the pups and thier environment. You would want to see a confident happy freindly dog. It is always preferable to get a puppy from a breeder who believes in well socialised home reared puppies as they will be more suited to pet homes. Never be put of by a breeder that asks you lots of questions about your experience with any other dogs/pets, your family,your home and working circumstance.Beware if they don't ask you any or few questions as it means they don't really care where the puppies go to and so would not be be a caring reputable breeder.

The only "guarantee" that you will get what you are told you are getting is with a Kennel Club registered puppy.   As Lucy says, you will be able to trace back all the puppy's parents, grandparents and g/g grandparents.

Anyone can make up a pedigree - and, sad to say, many do:rolleyes:.    The Kennel Club is the ONLY registration body that does check!

You may not want to show, or breed - but you do want the best possible puppy that you can get - and if you go through the Breed Society guidelines, you will see what questions you should be asking about health-checks that the parents should have had (and I don't mean a once-over by the local vet!) .

You will be spending money on acquiring a member of your family who will be with you for many many years, hopefully - so its really important that you get the best!

Good luck!

Margot

To be honest cutting corners on cost now is shortsighted, better to wait a few monts to save up the goign rate for a well bred pup than spending hundreds of pounds at the Vets for a poorly one.

its only a couple ive seen for £750 to £800, the majority are between £350 to £600.

Contact the breed club and ask what the normal price range is in the breed for well bred pups.  the chaeper ones will probably have had huge corners cut in their rearing and breeding standards.

Have a look at this thread http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/101247.html#fp and also the  second and third post on the breeding forum, those will tell you what a good breeder should be doing when breeding, and those are the things you should expect.

You should expect to get a pup that has been bred to be a typical (the breeder should have been aiming at outstanding) example of it;s breed.  the parents should have impeccable temperament and health and have been through the health tests that are available in the breed to help as far as is possible to breed healthy pups with the lowest risk of hereditary health issues.

You may not be planning on showing and breeding, but any breeder who aims to produce pups that are not the quality to be shown, worked or bred from are only producing pups to sell, not for the love of the breed and to ensure the qualities required in the breed.  Why should you not have as a pet a dog that if you wanted to show it could be a champion in the showing or if appropriate in the field?  Often peopel decide to sdo more with their dog after they get it.

If it's compliance to a breed standard is of so little importance then why have a pedigree dog at all?  The reason for having a pedigree is that within given parameters you should be able to predict what you are getting re looks and behavioural tendencies and drives, if the breeder does not select for typical traits then you are taking pot luck.

Going through a breed club or checking the breeder out through a breed club increases your chances of gettign a well bred pup hugely.

well thats what i was wondering if its worth getting a pedigree? i just need to make sure he/shes a pure breed due to allergies to other dogs.what kinda questions should i ask a breeder and what should i look out for in the puppies?

im going to see some puppies just after xmas.  they will be kc registered, had 1st jab, deflead and wormed and i can see both the mum and dad.hat should i look out for when go round there?

Thanks

All breed clubs will have A code of Ethics, which will vary in soem details from one breed to another regarding age for breeding, number of litters in a lifetime.  They will vary far less on the side of responsibilities of the breeer.  An example for my breed is here: http://groups.msn.com/NECGB-NorwegianElkhoundClubofGreatBritain/ethics.msnw so you can use such a code to ask your breeder questions and they shoudl adher to thes principles agree within their breed as best practice.

If you read the links you will see why a breeder should be breeding so asking along those lines as to why they are breeding, but maybe not quite that bluntly.  A real enthusiast will tell you what they were aiming to accomplish by breeding a particular litter.

Depending on the breed you will need to ask what health screening has been done and the results.

With living creatures nothing is guaranteed, but the whole purpose of pedigree breeding is as far as is possible to get what you are aiming for.  the importance of the pedigree (the ancestors) is their traits.  A breeder looks at the parents traits when deciding to mate a bitch to a certain dog, but as you know you don't just inherit your characteristics from your parents, you may have granddads nose, great grandmas varicose veins.  Your Great Uncle Pete may have had Heart trouble and some of his children too, maybe you are carrying that trait in your genes and if you marry someone with that problem in the family your children may be a t risk.

These are all things both physical , health and temperament wise that a breeder is looking at when breeding pup hoping for that perfect pup who has it';s ancestors outstanding point and none of their weaker ones.  Of course some pups may just be nice and typical rather than outstanding as maybe their ears are a little larger than ideal or they are a bit longer in back or nose, but these are really minimal differences that you probably wouldn't notice unless your judging them against each other with an ideal in mind.

What you don't want and have probably seen plenty of are Yorkies the size of a Cairn or Westie, a Cavalier King Charles the size of a Springer  spaniel.  A breed with great floppy ears when they should be upstanding.

Even worse you don't want dogs with timid or vicious temperament that are the result of a breeder who doesn't care if the parents had good natures their only reason for being bred from is that they could reproduce, and as this breeder will have forgotten about the pup and you as soon as your out the door and your money is in their pocket, what do they care if your dog grows up to be a nervous wreck going to the vet with one ailment after another.

With an unverifiabel pedigree or non pedigree yu are simply takeing piot luck, but you can guaranteee nothign ahs been doen to maxmise your chances of getting what you hoped.

Please keep away from places that say that the dogs are registered with other companies, they will tell you that its the same as Kennel Club, its not, its only puppy farms that use this registration, also be aware of people saying they can deliver, without you going to see the pups with the mum first, always ask to see the mum with the pups, if someone brings a puppy to the door, or, gate and tells you this is the pup, walk away, no reputable breeder would treat you this way.

Most good breeders let you see the pups from round about 4wks of age, and another point if they need to advertise, they have no contacts in what we would call "in my breed, the westie world" so it would be "the bichon world", its all word of mouth, breeders will let each other know if they have, or are having puppys.So be prepared to wait for a litter being born, that way you get to know the breeder and they get to know you.  Wait till you have spoken to some breeders and another tip for you is don't ask at first "how much are your pups" this will put off some breeders talking to you, wait and ask , and do what the others have suggested contact the breed club they can help you more than you will realise.

Start saving the extra money it will be worth it in the end.

Hope this helps.

Hi Gemma - it really is well worthwhile saving a little more money and buying a well-bred puppy from a breeder who's taken a lot of care to ensure that the puppies are all as healthy as possible. 'Cheap' puppies are usually cheap for a reason - they might not be bred from healthy parents, and without good care and nutrition as they grow, so that the new owner has a lifetime of very expensive vet bills.

Avoid any registration other than Kennel Club registration - the others are only used by puppy farmers.

It's not usually a good sign if the breeder has both mother and father of the litter. This often means that they've used the cheapest and most convenient dog rather than the one that will give the healthiest puppies.

thanks for the advice people.  well the breeder doesn't have both.  she has 2 females and one male of her own and the father of these pups her dad owns which is a stud dog (so i assume other breeders use him?) and he was a pup of the other mother a while back.  he just offered for me to see him as well as thats how i got in contact with the breeder.do you think that's ok as things ive looked at have said try to see both parents?

That sounds very much like they are not responsible breeders TBH. They give a dog to their father & then breed it to their own bitch, hm that's almost like owning both the parents & using them for convenience. There are responsible breeders who use their own stud dogs, but se are usually people who work or show their dogs & have either bought one of the parents in or have two distinct lines.

The words barge & pole spring to mind sorry

ok thanks.  im not sure if they show their dogs, i'll check.

A gogod question to ask is about food.  Bichons are intolerent to beef but I am absolutely amazed how many Bichon owners don't know this.  Ask about food recommendations and if there is any food that should be avoided.  If they don't mention beef they don't know their breed. 

Knowing this doesn't guarantee that they are good breeders so you will have to take all other factors into account but don't evern consider buying from anyone who doesn't know this. 

Good luck

Andrea

Andrea, I am sorry to disagree, but I can't see that using this as the only criterea for turning away from a breeder is a good idea,

I would also question the accuracy of the statement.    I am advised that, although it's never been proven, beef (and in fact gluten) are not recommended as a food for bichons as they contribute towards tear staining - it not a medical intolerance and not a reason not to feed it.  I know of several which enjoy beef occasionally - and in the show ring have beef liver cake

Average price for a bichon from show bred litter but for a pet puppy will be between £600 - £1000 depending on the breeder. 

Infomation from a friend who has had bichons for over 20 years, shows them and is on the committee of NOrth and Midland Bichon Club.

Kate

Both mine and my sisters Bichons eat beef occasionally and have no problems at all and both dogs have no tear staining at all.  I have often wondered why they are meant to be intollerant to beef.  I was wondering if it meant that it upsets their tummies or something but my Bichon will be 4 in March and has never had diarrhoea yet - he seems to have a cast iron stomach. lol

Kate

If you re read my post, I quite clearly say that all other factors also need to be taken into account.  Nor do I mention tear stains.  Beef products can cause hot spots.

And my information is also from very well respected show breeders of many years standing and from having Bichons myself.

Andrea

not necessarily (though i'd be very twitchy about it myself), check out what the lines of the bitch and dog are- potentially the owners have been a family that have been breeding for a while. if the parents wanted to keep a quality dog their child bred its not totally unlikely that the breeder bought in a new bitch, saw how she got on and wanted a pup from her and her parents dog. its obviously a red flag and i'd be suspicious myself but jumping to conclusions could mean that the op could miss out on a really well bred, quality dog, i say check it out and ask a lot of questions- take a list with you so you don't forget something, a good breeder won't mind one bit that you've prepared yourself in advance

Also ask the breed club if they know of the breeder, not only will they know who breed members and people 'in the breed' are abut also some of the cowboys to keep away from, because when these let the owners down the breed club and breed rescue are often those picking up the pieces.

Even if you dont want a dog for breeding still get a well bred one from a KC registered breeder who has been lovingly raising puppies for years. :)

Not only for the purpose of a good puppy, but incase you need any aftercare advice and KC breeders are usually more then willing to help, people who advertise in newspapers just want rid of the puppies, money in theyre hand and you will have no aftercare :(

I have to add here that just because a breeder advertises does not mean they are not Good breeders as there may well be a puppy or two not spoken for because of imbalance of sexes compared to bookings, a larger litter or people changing their minds.  Generally good breeders don't need to advertise other than being listed with their breed club and canine websites etc, but that is not always the case.

Personally I feel more good breeders should advertise in the local press where people are looking for litters if for nothing else than to contrast with all the bad breeders, but of course advertising is expensive and you have to vet heavily from such adverts so good breeders do not find this avenue as being a good cost effective one for finding the ideal homes.

As I have said no matter where you hear about a litter check the breeders reputation with the relevant national and/or regional breed club.

Good points there Brainless that one should have made! ;)

Its just that when our girls breeder advertised in the press she recieved calls from people wanting all the bitches in one go, or all the dogs in one go, :( worryingly she said they were of the 'traveller' sort (this was a litter of SBT'S) and people who she wouldnt leave a toy with let alone a puppy.

Like you say you need to heavily vet these people as they havent nesscarily checked anything about the breed, or prepared finacially for a puppy, justy glanced in the local paper said ''oo a puppy for sale'' and thats the extent of theyre research, but a good judge of character should be a mandatory trait of a good breeder!! :)

I don't know if anyone agrees with me here, but I'm always vary of adverts that state the puppies have been "de-fleaed". I've never bred any pup that had fleas, and my adults don't have fleas so any pups don't get them. Why the need to mention the pups have been flea treated, did they actually have fleas and if so, why? It's just one of these niggling little things that the back yard breeders seem to mention all the time but that good breeders take for granted -well reared pups don't have fleas, full stop.

no i dont think it meant they had fleas.  when i called the vet a while ago to ask about new pups im sure they said they should be deflead regularly and protected from them at certain points and regularly not just when they have fleas or i may be getting this confused about worming!will check again!all things ive seen about new pups mention defleaing.

Thanks for all the advice.  the way i found this breeder was  i searched for breeders and her dads stud dogs contact details came up and then he told me about the daughters dogs and puppies.

thanks for the advice.  could you recommend what questions to ask please? ive just emailed asking if either of the parents are show dogs and if they are pedigree so can check the history like you said but i know they are KC registered which is good!

Do Bichon's suffer from any of the 'toy' dog problems like slipping patellas etc?  Inherited eye conditions, its always worth checking out what health testing is applicable to the breed and then asking if the sire & dam are tested.

Sorry for the long post, but these are some of the reasons why it's a good idea to contact the breed club and make sure you're getting a well bred, healthy pup.

'Only a pet' needs a good, sound temperament to cope with living in a family with the various personalities, foibles and attitudes of the different members and their friends (not to mention their children and their friends) and the different animals they will live with and meet.  In addition they need to be able to cope with all the different situations they will meet.

'Only a Pet' needs good health to cope with the stresses of living with their family and all that this entails.  A sick/ill dog is a drain on family finances which, sadly, may not be able to cope.

'Only a Pet' requires good construction in order to live a fit and active pain-free life with their family.

'Only a Pet' doesn't get a day or even an afternoon off, they are on duty 24/7 diligently doing what a dog does best.

The majority of show dogs, regardless of successes or failiures, are first and last family pets.  Even if shown every week (in UK) this still leaves 312 days of being 'Only a Pet'  The breeders of these dogs usually charge no more (and often a good deal less) than puppies from a pet supermarket or puppy farm.  

And what about those puppies? - don't they deserve the best start in life possible? with health-tested parents of good temperament and sound construction to pass on to them?  Surely they deserve to be fed an appropriate diet and brought up in a way which enables them to move on to their permanent new homes with confidence and trust?

And what about the owner of 'only a pet'??  Do they honestly believe that a dog doesn't need to be fit for the job of being a pet?  Don't they realise that pups cannot be produced to order unless large numbers of dogs are being bred and that to raise a litter properly is time consuming and not possible in large numbers?   Doesn't the owner of 'Only a Pet' deserve a pup bred responsibly by a breeder who doesn't just have money as a motive??

Hope this helps

Great post, Dill.

M.

Your post reminded me of this article...

http://www.boxerunderground.com/apr_bu_99/justapet.htm

That's why I like to work my dogs (when I can afford it! :p) - they are "just pets" but still capable to doing what specially bred working dogs can do.  Maybe not as well but still good!  Even my rescue 'mare Soli loves to do agility and is bright as a button - and even Remy, who despite being purebred is very badly bred, loves it too and was quite good before his injury.  I look forward to being able to show them off, one day, in a competition and make a point of telling people that they are pets first and foremost and were not bred or chosen with agility in mind.  And that littlun, when/if she starts agility, will be neutered when the time's right and not bred to get another agility dog - even if she turns out to be fantastic (fingers crossed).  But I'm digressing a bit!

People that say things like "oh, it's just a pet" or "just a dog" really do get on my wick.  I bet they'd want their kids to have the best start possible, and the best health, so why should a dog get a bum deal?

i'd ask about family health issues eg, any recurring probs? and (morbid as it is) what members of the pups line died of and when their probs started- i've always found it means you can (probably) pretty much predict the age that the dog will start to have physical probs and what they are, in which case you can keep an eye out for them. if you intend at any point to breed and its a bitch find out how the mum got on with it (folk might disagree but with our families bitches they tend to take after their mums in this respect). research about the kennels of the dogs in the line, what kind of dogs (physically and temprement ) they had if you can. ask about the temprements of the parents normally (the bitch may be stand offish with you since she has babies to protect, not often a big prob but best to ask i think). ask about their food regime and why they have what they have... god i know theres other stuff but can't think at the mo... remember you'll be being quizzed to, be prepared!

Hi
We have a Bichon. Another thing to consider is - Do you have the time and extra money to keep up the grooming much needed in Bichons. Do the breeders live near to you and if they do will they trim him or know a good groomer in your area. They need to be brushed every day and are also not a dog to be left alone for long periods of time, many suffer from seperation anxiety.
Deb