I know there is a "window of opportunity" for socialising dogs but what happens if that window is missed?

For instance, if you had a  9 month old  dog which was friendly, had never been mistreated, but had spent its life in kennels, never lived in a home and never been "out and about", then is that dog doomed to be forever nervous, or could it still be socialised, with time and patience?

As im going to look at a puppy tommorrow this will help me too :)

I think it depends on the temperament the dog has inherited.

Three friends and I imported a pup at 9 weeks who spent 6 months in solitary confinement in quarantine yet 3 days after his release he was a at a large open show and was friend to every dog or person he met.  the only socialisation he had was with his breeder to 9 1/2 weeks.  the only lasting effect is that he has never really liked the car, but has travelled thousands of miles anyway.

Last year I helped with the rehabilitation of 3 bitches from late puppyhood to around two years of age.  they had never been off their owner breeders property and had lived as a pack.

None had been in a house or on lead or seen hardly any people other than those who fed them.

Initially they were rigid with fear and it took about 6 weeks for the first to be happy on walks ans trusting with people, though never a problem with other dogs.  The second was strong enough to want to defend herself if pushed into a corner, and inclined to attach herself and become a little possessive of her people to the exclusion of others, she came to me from her first foster home which was too quiet and allowing her to do this.  With me she had to deal with a much busier environment and started to see other people as a positive.

The last was the most timid of the bunch and she was one scared little thing who, didn't feel comfortable with adolescents and young men and would make threatening gestures before trying to hide.  Even after living with us several weeks she would pee or poo herself with fright if my then 14 year old son looked directly at her.  In the house she was very introverted and would not interact by choice.  Strangely once she was going out and we would stop to chat with people she would accept and ask for attention if it came after we had chatted a bit.  It helped that my own dogs would push for attention first so that no-one petted her until she was comfortable, but at home her choice would be to be introverted.  Her final home is with a retired couple that she dotes on and gets lots of coastal walks.

My breed is naturally sociable and bold.  There are three reactions to extreme stress or fear, fight flight or Freeze,a and fortunately these all showed mainly the freeze option, with just a lip curl or so denoting fight.  People in other breeds tell me that had these been guarding breeds then they might not have been able to be rehabilitated ad their natural reaction may have been fight.  Yet another breed would tend to flee.

I personally believe that most behavioural issues that are a result of poor nurturting (on the part of the breeder) can be overcome - much more so than issues resulting from a poor base temperament (i.e. inherited weak/nervous nature from parents)

There are quite literally 1000s of dogs rehomed through rescue centres and organisations that can have nervous traits turned around provided they are following a program which doesn't make an already anxious or unsure dog feel over pressurised :)

Never having seen the outside of a kennel (or barn/shed as with many puppy farmers) doesn't necessarily mean that a youngster will have a poor character (much as it really pains me to say it :rolleyes: ).  For example, my neice bought a massly over produced breed from an exceptionally dubious source  (yep, family ties dont cover all eventualities!) yet the character of this dog is exemplary, despite never having seen or heard any of the normal day to day things that IMO all pups MUST be introduced to - IOW despite her appalling lack of *nurture*/ socialisation, her *base* nature/temperament was superb :)

Windows of opportunity are there IMO for guidelines only - and to be very seriously considered and practised guidelines of course - but not to the extent that otherwise healthy happy dogs should be viewed as hopeless cases!  Most responsible breeders, behaviourists and rescue societies acknowledge (and even embrace) that ethos so if you are having specific difficulties please be encouraged that help and advice are to hand :)

In order to be more specific, can you say if this is your own/family or friend's dog? or a hypothetical situation?

Teri

It's a friend of a friend who has met this dog (a bitch actually) and is thinking of whether to consider homing it.... not sure of all the circs. All I know is that it is very friendly, although timid, but made huge strides in even the week following it leaving the kennels where it was bred. It went from staying in its crate to coming out eagerly (tail still between legs but the tip wagging, eager expression apparently) to greet people, and once it had greeted someone and trusted them, was VERY eager to have fuss and cuddles :)

Hi again KateC,

hopefully your friend wil have some info (preferably experience) on the pup's dam, sire, siblings etc to guage whether this is a nature or nurture scenario :)  From the little detail provided this sounds like a promising youngster if in the right hands and being carefully socialised just as would an 8 week puppy.  You probably know the drill but little and often to habituate with day to day sights and sounds, NO pressure - anything that seems to upset  this puppy calls for a backward step by the owner to a "comfort zone" stage and gently moving forward at the pup's own pace :)

At this age and having not been passed from home to home, hopefully nothing has actually as yet truly spooked this youngster more a case of her environment has been too limited and lacking in "normality" for the average family pet.  Introducing new things, although not flooding with too many at the beginning, should be done with careful thought and positive behaviours / responses lavished with lots of gentle (not excited!) praise :)

HTH and that it works out well for all. Regards, Teri

 

Thanks all :)

She does sound a nice dog - not hand shy at all and shows no signs of aggression - just very timid but eager to make friends :)

Our youngest rescue - a terrier cross - was around 5 months old when we got him in July. He was very nervous of traffic, barked at everything and anything and had no manners on his lead or in many other situations. He spent nearly a month in rescue and doesn't seem to have been out and about in the big wide world prior to his rehoming.

He is hard work but now he is quite happy to walk along the pavement (still working on the pulling but so much better than when we first had him).
He now stops barking when told to at home, out and about or in the car it is still work in progress :) He has very good recall but tends to range a fair way from you. He does come back when called but you have to watch him all the time as he is very quick and can disappear into the undergrowth in the blink of an eye and just keeps going until he hears you calling him (this is one time when the barking comes in handy as you can hear him in the distance).

He sits and waits for his food and won't touch it until told wheras when we first had him he jumped up at you all the time and barked his head off. He used to bark at other dogs as soon as he saw them but now only barks if they do.

As I say he is very hard work, though I think our other dog spoiled us as he is very quick and eager to learn, but late socialisation can be done but it takes a lot of time and patience.

Our Chow X Rottie came to us at 6 months and had known only the 4 walls of a back yard since leaving his littermates.  He had been owned by a single mother with two children and alhough their contact with him was minimal beyond the first few weeks, he retains an affinity for women and children.  However, he is wary ofstrangers, in particular men...I don't know if this comes from a lack of socialisation or from his combination of breeds (both of whom would be known to be wary to some extent). He had never been walked or worn a collar.

We got him out and about off lead immediately (rightly or wrongly) and he took most things in his stride. He is a pretty well adjusted adult now, albeit with the lasting wariness around strangers;  most of whom he comes round to over time but some of whom he refuses to accept...as it turn out, the people he won't accept are ones that I prefer not to spend a lot of time with myself so I consider him to simply be a good judge of character ;) :D

He is exceptionally good around other dogs of all sizes and is trustworthy off lead in most situations although it did take some time to adequately socialise him around joggers and cyclists as his initial instinct was to chase everything that moved quickly.  Now he reserves that for cats and squirrels :rolleyes:

I had a cavalier (breed known to be very friendly) who wasn't able to go for walks until 9 months old as he had health problems. He grew up to hate dogs he didn't know, would try to attack any dog he was unfamiliar with. The biggest he ever went after was a Great Dane. He stayed like this for life despite training classes etc.

Marianne B, extremely interested to read your post.  My Border Terrier was 4 when I got him, trained to do shows (and win) but apparently not socialised and I've not been able to socialise him since I've had him.  Hates other dogs big time, goes for yorkie to dane.  And I do believe despite my best efforts he will always be like this.  I know that's why probably a well bred pedigree was in rescue in the first place but that's surely a good reason for more information for the uninformed on how to deal with dogs when they first get them as pups.  Should the breeder check how much research a prospective owner has done on the breed or should the breeder provide more advice?  Maybe there's no cure if it goes on too long?

CG

find a training class near by, i know alot of rescue dogs come into ours but they can't do alot at first and us with the pups are given guide lines as to what not to do with them, your natural instinct is to stroke them or let your pup sniff but we arn't allowed at first. I know you can train most dogs but the older they are the more work you have to put in and it is alot harder, you will feel like pulling your hair out at times and giving up but they get there eventually. If you go to training classes they will help you all the way. Good Luck.

Depends, I think!

My pup didn't get into that window as I would have liked. The training class started weeks after (she was four or five months old by the time she went) & I settled for it as it was the only "local" one (sadly, it turned out to be a bad class). Because it was late, she hadn't really met many dogs. I don't know anyone with a dog & it was just the dogs at the park if there were any when we went. The dogs in the class were horrible (praised when attacking - you know the sort) & she became very afraid as opposed to wary.

However, recently I have noticed a change. Where she used to cower behind my legs away from the nosey dog at the park, she now is curious too! Today she played with an adult dog for the first time since that class but only on her terms, she walked back to me when he started showing an interest in playing with her, heh. So I think it can happen at a later stage.

I once had a GSD who because of circumstances was kenneled in a remote stable from the day they were born. (The place he came from suddenly developed Parvo a couple of weeks after Mum had been mated, they lost 50% of their extremely well bred stock, hence I was really keen and had waited a long time for the particular blood line.) On vets advice the bitch was cared for as far away from the kennels as possible and she was fine as were the pups. They were immunized with mums antibodies made from Mums blood (Not sure how I was a raw novice then!) He was wary of people from the start and having developed severe HD before 4 months (Mum and Dad both low scorers he was an unfortunate throwback...never did get the chance to use him on my bitches!!!)and advised by Vet to keep him on NO exercise for 6 moths he was never properly socialized. (I have to say this was in the early 80's and I would do things very differently now!!)  He was an absolute nightmare with strangers and had to be very well contained in certain circumstances. However we did eventually get him safe to be around people as long as they did not make any sudden moves towards me. He would completely ignore other dogs (Lived with 6 other GSD'S who he also ignored in favour of me) and would ignore visitors when told to. He lived to 14 years old and was cranky for the whole of his life. I think in the wrong hands he could have been a very dangerous dog but luckily I got the better of him enough to control him. I loved him to bits but would never want another like him! I lived on my nerves with him for 14 years, but on the plus side he never ever bit a soul.
So some will cope and adjust to lack of socialization and some never ever will. Depends on the dog I think
Aileen.
PS Just to say he was castrated at six months and was always the first to notice a bitch in season and would mate anything that let him....he was really handy for telling me when my girls were ready to stand...and he only fired blanks!¬!¬

As others have said, a lot depends on the individual dog - and the circumstances of their initial raising by the breeder.

I have a 6yr old dobe bitch who came to me almost a year ago (end of this month), with fear aggression to dogs caused by lack of socialisation.  To the best of my knowledge, she didn't socialise Soli at all - there may have been one or two puppy classes, but her old owner said that Soli never came out from under the chair so she didn't go back.  After that she was basically isolated, kept away from kids "just in case" and dogs (except for her litter brother who her old owner's ex had (bought at the same time)).

In the year I've had her she's come on leaps and bounds - sometimes she can meet other dogs, she is always edgy but improving.  And she';s much, much better with people now - she used to be iffy with kids and adults, but today she's been badgering people in PAH for fuss. :D

But underneath all that progress, she is still an unconfident dog - and I suspect she always will be.  I don't have many details of her first 8 weeks at the breeders, but from what I understand she was raised in a barn - so possibly not much socialisation.  Of course that's speculation on my part; at some point I'll get around to calling her breeder (got the number recently) then I can find out a lot more - such as those first weeks, her parents' temperaments and so on.

My brother, on the other hand, rehomed a 2/3yr old crossbreed bitch (most likely dobe X rottie X staff), who'd been in kennels from about 6 months old and was stray before then.  She had seriosu fear aggression on-lead, and terrible social skills off it, but still made good progress when I last worked with her (she was 9 then and had a good 6/7 years of aggressive behaviour behind her).  She was fairly confident, which helped.  But now she's been on her own again for a year (was living with two of mine for a few years before I moved), and when I saw her in October with one of mine (her favourite) her social skills were atrocious - she's an outright bully now, and a very, very OTT one at that.  Opi wasn't ahppy at all, so persistence and consistence are big factors in helping these dogs, putting aside their individual histories.

I believe the inherited temperament will make all the difference, if that was impeccable the dog will adjust fine, but if it is poor it will have less chance, but that would have been true with optimum socialisation too.  Nurture can only do so much, and vice versa.

So if the pup that lacks socialisation comes from parents with bomb proof temperament was reared in ideal circumstances, but since has not been brought on as it should you should be able to rectify the situation.