Really, really got to sort this now - I've been putting it off for way too long (thinking I didn't walk the dogs in prey-ful unsafe areas - doh) but today has just seen such a close call that I'm still shaking from it.

I had the younger three dogs round my local common area, for the most part it's totally fenced in on all sides, but to get in there's an open end with a big field between the common and the road - which is fairly busy.  It also has lorries going in an out of my workplace opposite the field so not a good place for off-leading.  The dogs are usually on-lead across that field, then off once we reach the posts separating the field from the common.  Today I'd walked them round the common and got back to the posts, just past when a rabbit appeared - and headed straight for the road.  Of course the dogs took off after it before I could stop them.

The rabbit stopped halfway along the field and dived into a hole, but the stupid dogs just kept going - right to the road, round the corner and across it.  I was running for them by now but they came back, and carried on ignoring me completely.  I'm now upset and cursing myself a lot for being so stupid as to wait to re-leash them.  Well, hindsight and all that.

I've got a few tips and tricks for training recalls generally, and despite me being a bit slack lately their whistle recall is coming along very well - all four dogs are just at the longline stage, recall is excellent when other animals aren't around.  But it's the prey thing I've never managed to sort - they all have high prey drive and I've had trouble in the past getting them back, but always in safe areas.  I've never seen a rabbit along that field before, and the dogs have never shown the same interest as they do on the common where the holes are.

So, is there anything I can do short of leashing them until we're well onto the common (and well before we're off it)?  I have seen an article about careful training specifically for prey chasing, but it needed two people.  I only have me.  Ultimately they need off-lead running - littlun has been systematically destroying my house of late because she hasn't had enough.  Bigun I can walk on a flexi, but I can't manage three on flexis at the same time (and don't have the time or ability, long term, to walk them all separately).

Help!

No advice Nikita I'm afraid but I do sympathise. My borzois have excellent recalls, as long as they aren't chasing something, if they are then the only option is to wait for them to lose it or catch it then call them. However the collies can be called off a rabbit, deer or fox...one whistle for Meg and sometimes two whistles for the young one but they do come racing back. I haven't done anything different with their training, they just don't have such a high prey drive. Is that the only place you can walk them? With my zois I like to find fully fenced farmers fields for their free running, it's much safer :)

At the moment yes, my other options are the local woods or park.  The park isn't great for Soli because of her dog issues, and the lack of free running for her (and limited in where I can walk in it with her and the others as a 40mph road runs along the front of it), and the woods is 4 or 5 miles away - both need to be driven to and right now I can't afford the diesel to do two trips a day (because of having to walk Soli alone in daytime).

I'm going to have a look around for a field that I might be able to use, but at the moment the diesel cost would still be a problem, even very nearby as I'm just that skint!

I've been there too Nikita, where every penny really does count. Have a good look around at the places within walking distance, sometimes you may find somewhere that you hadn't previously considered that would be excellent. Anywhere that is fully fenced can be used for the zois, in the past I've let them run in 5-a-side football pitches, tennis courts, factory grounds etc. As long as you clear up any mess then you should be fine :)

Hiya,

They could all really do with some one to one time on walks even if it's only 15 mins each - I know you're sruggling at the moment, but I would really try and find a way that you can do that.  You need their recall to be incredibly responsive and as perfect as possible in all other situations before there's a chance that they'll recall from prey.  It basically needs to become so ingrained, that's it's an automatic almost involuntary response to turn when they hear the cue.  Ciara also has a very high prey drive and it's something I've struggled with with her - however coincidently today I managed to get her back from a deer, the deer was a good way off, but she was in full flight and returned.  It's still far from perfect but something I never thought I'd be able to do with her.  She's quite obsessive about chasing.  I've worked hard on her recall generally and it really is spot on 99.9% of the time in all other situations - if I stop working on it for a while you can tell.

The way I've done it with her is that she has a special treat that is for recalling away from chasing.  It can be anything but obviously it's got to be really high value.  If yours are toy addicts then get them obsessed about a particular toy that is only for chase recall. Or if they are foodies then take half a cow out with you :-) Whatever exciting treat you use it must only be used for chase recall!

I also worked on getting Ciara to recall from chasing a ball.  I worked hard on getting her hooked on a ball specially for this exercise.  She's not really that toy focussed, so it took a while.  It's a ball on a rope that we can play tuggy with and then I can throw for her, so she get's to chase.  I kept the sessions with the ball short so she never got the chance to get bored of it.  I started getting her to recall from the ball mid chase, to start with I got her to recall before she was too over excited so I didn't give her the chance to fail at recalling.  I then worked on getting her more and more excited about the chase and got her recalling at different stages of chasing the ball.  Obviously this isn't the same as prey but I do think it's really helped with her chase recall.

Some people find teaching a strong 'leave it' works better - so the dog doesn't need to turn and come straight back to you as long as it changes direction or stops.  This wouldn't work for Ciara but I know others who find it works better for their dogs.  It may also be worth using a word that you only use for chase recalling.

I would also maybe not let them all off together as one dog recalling from prey is one thing - three dogs all chasing together and they just feed off each other.

Good luck.

Thanks Karen.  You got the pack mentality right - that's partly why they were so bad today.  Remy is a sod for chasing anyway - never recalled from a rabbit in his life, not even when I went through a stage of using a remote spray collar on him.  I could get him off anything with that, so long as it wasn't small, furry and running away!

But River normally is very good, she won't recall from fleeing things (she's the worst for birds) but once they've gone she will - but today she just wouldn't respond, even once they were all back near me.  I really had to shout to snap her out of it, and of course that doesn't help!

I think what I'll have to try and do is two walk still, but walking three on lead then one by themselves so I can work on recall, and rotate it each time.  It's the only way I can see it working - I'd love to do each dog one after the other, I've got the energy for it, but my back won't take it. :(  I can't work with too short walks - River is destroying the house at the mo as it is, I've already had to up the exercise to try and counter that!

Remy I think is the same as Ciara was for toys - he really couldn't give a stuff.  Not one hoot!  But, if I'm doing recall work with him in the garden, he will chase a ball - and he will always recall from it for a whistle.  Opi will as well, and Soli 80% of the time - River still needs work (she's the most ball obsessed) but she's still learning what the whistle means.

I had to work hard to get Ciara excited about the ball outside but now she really can get quite frantic about it.  It helps that we also play tug with it aswell which she enjoys.  She wouldn't be the same if it was just a ball that I threw for her.  I also had to do quite a bit of 'do you want it, do ya doya' while dancing around like a wally and getting her generally excited :-D I only ever throw it a max of three times and a bit of tug in between and then it gets put away with her still wanting more - it's worth persevering with.  Try different tuggies, you could use a fake rabbit skin dummy, some dogs go nuts about those.

If River has a thing for birds she may love frisbies and you can practise getting her recalling from them.

I didn't mean just give them 15 mins a day each - I can't imagine what madam would be like with just that :-), but maybe if you could find somewhere safe and enclosed and could let them all out for a run together as well as short individuals.  Failing that I think your plan of keeping two on lead and practising recall with one off lead would be the best way to go.

I think it's important to find an outlet for them to chase some kind of alternative in a safe controlled way as dogs that have a high prey dirve do have a need to chase, and if they don't get that outlet else where it'll be hard to stop them finding it for themselves.  So finding some alternative for Remy especially will be really important in part of the training.  You'll get there :-)

Also just to add - I think I remember you saying that out of your lot Remy loves clicker training the most - you could actually clicker train him to play tuggy or ball and get him into it that way! Just a thought.

Hi
I take it it's Borzois you have?  Sorry, don't know the breed other than what I've read so this will probably be a daft idea but rather than continuing to call them away with a recall cue that is unreliable at a high distraction level why don't you start from the beginning and teach them a stop whistle as if they were gundogs?  Obviousy, this wouldn't be a quick fix as you would need to proof the cue in various environments and at all sorts of distraction levels before trying out around game.  Do you have access to a rabbit pen for training?  (May need long line to be on the safe side!!!)  One on one training will be vital before attempting to cue this behaviour as a pack.

Have been there and got the t-shirt though re dogs running into the road so you have my sympathy;  my then 12 month gsp did it after a rabbit about three years ago and only survived because there was a passing jogger who held up the traffic.  Otherwise he would have been history. :rolleyes: I posted about it on here at the time and got a bit of wake-up call from Tohme about teaching a reliable stop.   It really brought the need home to me though and it has proved invaluable since.  For whatever reason there are occasions and circumstances where he would still fail a recall whistle;  however, if I blow the stop whistle first, then the recall it works perfectly.  It's as if the few seconds of stop are enough to cut through the red mist of hunting when all the senses are focussed on the prey and bring him back into the real world. 

Also, I found that the acme whistle was crap for cutting through the red mist - I use a thunderer!  Much more effective!

Good luck.  

My dogs are two dobes (Remy and Soli), a rott mix (probably crossed with a border collie, Opi) and River, who's a lab X collie (50/50 but is almost entirely collie in behaviour and build).

I have started training them to a whistle, I've been doing it on and off for a long time - just never got to the distractions stage, much to my shame. :p I've not used it outside the house yet for fear of de-valuing it by them ignoring it.

I did start teaching a whistle stop a little while ago - I started with getting a good, quick Down and then adding a long pip as a cue for it.  The plan was to build that into an emergency stop, it just sort of didn't happen!  But I will go back to it.  I'll try the whistle you suggest as well - I do use an Acme at the moment, but perhaps I could use that for general recalls (low distraction) and a thunderer for more important recalls.

I know it's a long road ahead, especially given the self-reinforcement they've had to date chasing things.

Karen - I know you didn't mean only 15 minutes a day each, don't worry :) I meant that I'm not able to give each dog a 15 minute walk a day specifically for recalls in addition to their normal walks, so my plan is to walk three on lead one walk, then one on a longline in a second walk.  All four first thing in the morning still (on lead), that does help with River a bit.  I can train at home of course, I'm fortunate to have a big garden that they can run in.

I'll try clicker training Rem for the toys - I've pondered a few times if it might work (with the idea of getting him to run more as he's a podgy so-and-so), both for playing with toys and running more on walks.

Well, I guess this is all a wake-up call I needed - much as I'd rather have avoided it of course - I've been far too lazy about recall training for far too long, bout time I knuckled down and got on with it.

One last note - I was heartily relieved this morning to find out that no-one at work had seen me trying to run (I can't, it hurts and I'm very unfit!) across the field after the dogs, or heard me screaming like a banshee! :D

My dog isn't very interested in toys but he loves these squirrel things. Maybe yours will like it. (and believe me, my dog has tested every toy on the market!) I think I saw some in our local PAH but you can find them online all over the place.

Oh the boys love them too :D

Oooh Lori, fantastic idea!  I'd completely forgotten about those!  Remy used to have them a few years back and absolutely loved them.  I will go forth and buy one!

Well, that's his christmas pressie sorted as well :D

Yes, stick to the whistle training much more effective than shouting and calling.

Just wanted to say, don't worry too much, most of us with prey driven dogs have been there, got the T-Shirt etc, there is always one in the pack that wants to ignore and entices the others to do the same.

I've always whistled trained, (so can't comment on clicker though I guess just as good) just be constistant and I agree with the 15 mins a day with each dog to do this training, longer if poss, but if done every day, you won't believe the difference it will make.

I had a fox chase this afternoon, but one whislte and all the dogs were back, now imagine how hard it is for a dog to break from a chase of any prey but my good friend the whistle never lets me down. :-P

Just keep at it, they will make mistakes, they will test you and they will certainly want to chase prey, even though after years, I would say mine is 100% with whistle recall, I still would not take the chance near a road, no dog is ever a saint when it comes to prey just make sure that they are not off lead close to the road. :-)

Has a rather odd idea, and thought I'd run it past you peeps.

Once they're progressing well - i.e. some time down the line when their recalls are much better - would it be worth setting up some fake prey to start working on that side of things?  So that I could control the situation (and engineer training situations).

What I'm thinking is a little radio controlled car, made to look like a bunny - faux fur or even a rabbit pelt with little ears and all :p that way I could control it moving and stopping.  Would take a bit of coordination but I reckon it might help, what do you think?

Has a rather odd idea, and thought I'd run it past you peeps.



:-D  I like your thinking, infact I like the idea that you are thinking! :-)

Downside is the remote furry car just would not be fast enough, your dog would probably be on it before you had the chance to get your whistle to mouth, it may work if you had two people one at one end of the field and you there with whistle command to stop your dog, (one dog at a time) chasing. Without help, it may infact teach your dogs to chase more as with a catch it will be a reward.

Good points.  What I was thinking is to have the car run a little way then let the dog go, blow the whistle and stop the car - so that it isntantly becomes boring if they don't stop.  Would take some reflexes though!  I'd probably start on a 6ft lead or longline though, so they didn't get to catch it.

Try a bolting rabbit as they use in gundog training!  Basically a dummy covered in rabbit skin that is on a piece of eastic that is pegged at multiple points that you then release so that it pings along its course.  They are about £20.  http://www.scottcountry.co.uk/products_detail.asp?productID=1603 

Err....just seen the price on the Turner Richards weblink - £40!!  You CAN get them cheaper than that - honest!

Good idea Gunner, but, (correct me if I'm wrong) I think that Nikita is on a public area where she walks her dogs so may get into trouble using it this way. I know that you can't do things like this in parks and public walking areas anymore, only takes one person to complain. :-(

Hi
I would start by using the bolting rabbit in my own back garden before contemplating using it in a high distraction environment with real game around......at least the bunny huggers can't complain about that.....or can they??? :-D

Jan I'm shocked you could suggest such a thing...what about all the poor innocent bugs that will be squashed as a fake bunny pings about the garden followed by 4 large dogs and an out of breath, frantically whistling, Nikita :D

*snort* That's made my day Tigger, my sides are killing me :D :D

OMG....how inconsiderate of me!  :-D Gives self a hard slap on the wrists and makes mental note to erect bug runs in the garden that are GSP proof before anyone reports me to the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Bugs.  :-) 

Hi Nikita
Guess I didn't explain myself very clearly - nothing new there then!  :-)

I do use an Acme at the moment, but perhaps I could use that for general recalls (low distraction) and a thunderer for more important recalls.
I would suggest that you need one cue per behaviour and keep that regardless of location or distraction level.  Also, I think you will find the thunderer best as your stop  whistle and keep the acme for recall.  Listen to them both and decide for yourself which makes you jump out of your skin the most!  :-)

Finally, apologies if teaching grandmother to suck eggs (!) but you made the following comment:

I did start teaching a whistle stop a little while ago - I started with getting a good, quick Down and then adding a long pip as a cue for it.
Just checking that you are aware that the sequence you need is new whistle cue first, established down cue, get the behaviour and then reward.  Over time and with hundreds of repetitions the dog will start to anticipate and so you will be able to fade the established cue and you will get the down behaviour on your new whistle cue!!

Best of luck. 

Thanks for the tips.

> Just checking that you are aware that the sequence you need is...

Yep, I'm aware.  I did a lot of work on the Down first before starting to add the whitle cue, and it was as you suggest - new cue, old cue, behaiour, reward.  They were starting to get the hang of it before I got lazy.

I've ordered the thunderer, should get that in a day or two.

Excellent post Jan. Nikita will quite possibly be able to teach her dogs a stop whistle, being working dogs...if they were borzois I really don't think thats possible. I know some people will say every dog is trainable, and it's certainly something I subscribed too before I got my first zoi 20 odd years ago, as I'd done competitive obedience for years. I was convinced my borzoi would be unlike every other, and he was very good for the first year. He was walked with the collies, I didn't teach him close heelwork or a sit command as I wanted to show him, but he would down on command, stay, do a reasonable sendaway etc....however once his prey drive kicked in everything else was forgotten. Every borzoi I've owned has been well behaved in the sense they don't pull on the lead and will follow you everywhere, they'll come racing when called but no amount of training can make them stop, down or come back if they're chasing a bunny I'm afraid. Yes, borzois do compete in obedience, and I've trained one of my current ones in fun agility, but these are done in prey free zones :D

Hiya
You wrote: if they were borzois I really don't think thats possible

That's why I said early on in my post :  don't know the breed other than what I've read so this will probably be a daft idea   :-)

Sadly don't know any borzois 'close up & personal' so's to speak but have heard and read enough about them to be aware of their reputation!  Think they're beautiful dogs, but........ you must enjoy a challenge!!  :-)  Would love to see one doing obedience!

Cheers

> Also, I found that the acme whistle was crap for cutting through the red mist - I use a thunderer!  Much more effective!

What's a thunderer? Do you just use it for the stop?  I need to get whistle training sorted out but I just have an acme (well two actually).

http://www.reflog.co.uk/acatalog/Metal_Thunderer.html

Yes, I use it just for the stop.  It is a metal whistle with a pea in it that is VERY loud.  Keep the acme for recall,  change of direction or whatever else and use the thunderer for the stop only....the contrast in the two is amazing and helps to make the dog take notice!  Still no substitute for regular training though!  :-)

Thanks.

Totally sympathise Nikita, I'm at the same point with my collie/labx, he went onto a long line a couple of weeks ago after he actually caught a pheasant rather than just chasing them :rolleyes:.  I'm enjoying our walks more in a way though, although the line's a bit of a nuisance I can re-enforce all my commands and am working on his recall and not running off after dogs, plus his emergency downs.  He's just rolled in a load of fox poo and the house is reeking, just about to go and do a search on CD to see if there are any tips for getting rid of the smell.....

oh no just tried the tomato ketchup and his lovely white collie ruff has gone pink!!  :)  couldn't help laughing.  OH is supposed to be buying some shampoo so hopefully that will help get the pink out.  Reminded me of a woman on the Dog Whisperer the other night who had deliberately dyed her dog pink :rolleyes:

Heehee!  I always just wash it out with shampoo.  Takes 2 oe 3 goes normally.  I've often heard that ketchup works, but TBH honest I can't bring myself to try it - I can cope with fox poo, but ketchup makes me retch and the thought of vomit and fox muck combined is a sobering one!

It wasn't overly effective but maybe I didn't rub it in enough or leave it to 'soak' long enough.  Shampoo's got most of it off but he's still a bit whiffy and still looks slightly like I've tried to slit his throat :D

In California we don't use ketchup, we use tomato juice to rid our dogs of unpleasant smells (it's skunk back home). It's cheaper than tomato sauce and easy to rinse out.

> oh no just tried the tomato ketchup and his lovely white collie ruff has gone pink!!    couldn't help laughing.  OH is supposed to be buying some shampoo so hopefully that will help get the pink out.  Reminded me of a woman on the Dog Whisperer the other night who had deliberately dyed her dog pink 

Tried fruity sauce once (my mother had no ketchup :D ) and it worked fairly well, apart from the bits the dog licked off - black dog, no visible staining. Didn't get the same results the time I used ketchup - but didn't leave it on for long... 

And I saw the pink dog. :rolleyes: