Hello, I am new to this forum & looking for people's advice & expertise since it would seem, from what I have read, people seem to know a fair bit about breed sorts. Here's a bit of my background.

Currently, I am a student & I have a CKCS bitch who is coming up to ten months old. I was a bit hasty when buying her & didn't do as much research as I should have done, I admit this now, & am planning to go totally overboard with research for my next dog. She has luxating patella in one leg & isn't KC registered - stupid, I know! Otherwise she is a lovely & healthy dog. But I would like to get into showing, agility & possibly obedience. I could not do the first two with my current bitch so I may do obedience with her, as she is extremely quick at picking up new tricks & learning new lessons etc., in the not too distant future but I would like a second dog I could do the first two with.

My CKCS is my own first dog. My parents have had a of dog before, though. I do well with my CKCS, she has grasped a lot in a short space of time & would be faring better if I had access to the dog training I want to do with her (sadly, I do not drive). My point is, I think I am quite good at training dogs & possibly have a natural knack for it, if you can have one that is, but I am aware that her breed is a very easy first breed & so on.

I live with my OH in a flat at the moment but we intend to move within the next six months to a terrace house in the suburbs. I will be finishing university soon & will start work following on from that. Obviously, since I have one dog already, I am planning to go down the line of having either daycare or a dog walker come in for my CKCS & would do the same for dog number two. OH isn't entirely keen on dogs but accepts fully that I love dogs, always have, & that I want to show & do agility etc. in the future. He finds my CKCS a bit too needy for his liking, as she constantly demands (as CKCS do) attention & doesn't mind whether it is his or my attention she gets! As for herself, she is a very calm dog, especially for one so young. She loves nothing more than a snooze and/or a cuddle, adores every person she meets (especially children!) but isn't so keen on dogs following a very poor dog training class she went to (they allowed two big, loud, dog aggressive dogs in who attempted to fight each other & then all the other dogs) which has caused her to roll on her back & pee herself whenever she meets a dog. Obviously, I want to help this & I think a doggy companion may help her (as well as meet my own desires to show & compete).

What I am looking for is a dog that is bigger (medium to large) than my current dog, a possible "next step" on from a CKCS, that I can take to agility classes (at eighteen months onwards, obviously) & to ringcraft as well as to suit my CKCS. I have no preference regarding grooming, as I have a CKCS with long hair that I find all over the place at times. Something that is not too similar to her nor too far off. That wouldn't mind too much waiting for the dog walker to arrive at midday (worst case scenario) & that isn't needy. How vocal the dog is of some importance for when I move into a terrace (it will have a yard & will be near big open fields) & obviously needs to be okay with smaller dogs. Being friendly with strangers is of no great importance, however. As for children, I have none & have no plans for any but you never know (I would never ever rehome if I had any, though).

Breeds I had been thinking of were the setters & retrievers, except the labrador which I am not too fond of as they are a bit too boisterous for my CKCS. Terriers are a complete no go as far as I am concerned & I had sort of ruled out hounds as I like to be able to rely on a recall as I like to see my dog running free as exercise. I'm inclined to go for a second bitch too, I am not sure if that is ill advised or not.

Sorry, it's a bit long. I just want to get this spot on. I knew for a fact that CKCS was for me the first time round & I have a feeling I know what I want this time but I would like to have it confirmed by others given the facts.

Hi

I have two dogs - one being a CKCS and one being a Hungarian Puli.  Have a read up on them - they are absolutely fantastic to train - love agility - very adaptable to living conditions.  If you are at all interested I do know some people that you could talk to that show and train pulis.  Beware though - of all the Puli owners I know through the breed club I am the only one that so far has stuck to one - most of them have a gang!

best wishes

Maxine

PS dont be put off by the coat - he is actually easier to look after than the CKCS

My friend has a Cavalier and he believes himself to be a Golden Retriever as he has been walked with my lot since a puppy. The Goldens tend to take his size into consideration and are surprisingly careful with him when playing boisterously together.

Golden was what I was thinking of but I wasn't sure if they were too similar to my CKCS! Definitely a big contender though.

Neither of my goldens are velcro dogs. My dog will not sit on your lap for love nor sausage. Sometimes if he's really cuddly he'll rest his head in your lap if you sit next to him. My bitch is more affectionate when next to you but also keeps to herself a lot. Right now I'm in my office, my dog is asleep on our bed upstairs and my girl will either be asleep on the futon in the library or downstairs on the couch. That's pretty much status quo around here. If I go have lunch both will join me in the living room but not lap dogs.

Any dog can suffer from SA and neediness, any dog can also be taught that it's OK to be alone as well. That's something I started teaching mine at 8 weeks.

They're very quiet as well. No barking at doorbells or people passing on the street. Both of my dogs get on very well with CKCS's too, even the shy ones at the club like my dogs.

Hello - do I know you? :D
Welcome to Champdogs!

What about a nova scotia duck tolling retriever? Likes to be actuve and do agility etc but tend to have a fairly laid back attitude to life and are quite sociable. They are also not to big. Of course you could always go for another cav but from a better breeder this time?

Another Cavalier would not suit, sadly. OH has decided he doesn't like them as he finds their lapdog qualities a bit too strong! I like them but I am inclined to agree with him.

Also, would tollers be suitable, do you think? I get the impression that they are a bit more serious than a lot of other gundogs.

Yes, why, I think you do!

Setters are fabulous but not for everyone :)

Great characters and get on with any breed.

Need regular grooming/brushing.

Some are noisy they do need lots of exercise :)

They are trainable but need kind consistent methods.  I do agility with one of my Gordon and have done obedience and agility with my Irish.  The English are stubborn and also prone to ignoring recall and roaming but great companions!

One of the best things about the setter is they are super with children.

You mention the neediness - they are great people dogs and love to be in your company whatever you are doing!

I would suggest you try and meet as many of the breeds you are considering to gauge whether they are the right dog for you!

Where are you ?  Happy for you to meet my lot in Sussex :)

I'm afraid I am in the north west, but thanks for the offer!

Would you say the neediness is a rival to the neediness of a CKCS? I know mine would suffer SA if I let her which is entirely normal for a CKCS & I also know that all dogs, regardless, love company & would definitely prefer it. Just wondered where it was on that scale.

Exercise & grooming aren't an issue providing they don't need exercise akin to a Malamute!

LOL - at the exercise - they will go on and on if allowed!  But its no more/less than an average gundog!

No they don't suffer from SA if trained not to!

What would you say separates the three setters (four, if you include the Brittany, I guess) apart from appearance?

Sorry. Going to pick your brain as I have never met or spoken to anyone with experience of the three of them. :D

Think about the Puli again - they like to be with people but they are not lap dogs - like to sit near or close but not 'on' .....

One of these days I will convince somebody how lovely and versatile a Puli is!

Maxine

I have read that they are quite vocal, is this not true?

Pulis can be vocal but not for nothing if you can see what I mean.  When the door goes - definitely.  When we come home the first thing he wants to do is get into the garden and check the perimeters - barking as he does it - we call it his four point security check!  However, I am out of the house for 6 hours a day - he has access to the garden and my neighbours have said he is fine. He certainly doesnt nuisance bark in the house and quit often it is the CKCS that will bark first if something is heard outside.  The only time the neighbours hear the puli bark is if somebody is by the back fence and to be honest they are happy about that. 

One of the descriptions is 'wary of strangers' - this means that if a stranger goes to them they will bark - they prefer for the stranger to come so close and then wait for the 'puli approval'.

If you read posts on my puli at all he is a different case - rescued at 4 years old with who knows what happening to him so he is slightly more stranger wary.

I have met another 12 pulis and all have barked hello and then come to for strokes.

Maxine 

Ah, thanks. I will bare it in mind when I do have to decide. :D

Gordons - the clowns - but my fave (don't tell the English or Irish though), the most vocal and lively I would say - but VERY trainable as they love to please - I have boys - bond with one person in general.  Great great temperaments (goes without saying if from reputable breeder and bought up with families - but that goes for all dogs really). 

Irish - fabulous (I have only had a bitch) dog - very very special - again full of beans, very trainable and a joy to live with - she is very independant compared to the boys though - again love to please.

English - probably the hardest to train as they can be so so stubborn - they can do it they just choose if they want to :)  And if I am waiting for someone to come back when out walking its always my English - he is also the houdini of the bunch and will find any hole in a fence - will jump the fence - now have 10ft wall which finally contains the beast :)  But having said all that (if you are up for a challenge) he has many qualities - the most affectionate, loving boy you can get - a real softy.

All love birds and rabbits to chase - but this is overcome with training.

Feel free to pick away - happy to help in any way :)

Trying to think of anyone your way who you could visit!

>What would you say separates the three setters

Three? You've forgotten the red-and-white, which to my mind is the most attractive of the lot. :)

I keep forgetting about that one as it is an Irish..

I do agree they are the prettiest but temperament comes first!

The ones I've met at shows have very attractive personalities and temperaments as well. :)

Do you know how they compare to the main three setters?

I was a little bit weary of the Red & White as I thought they may possibly be a bit too much of a working dog given their breed history.

Where is Rox when you need her!!! 

Have a look here and see if this gives you some more info until Rox comes along!

http://www.irishredandwhitesetterclub.com/page.php?page_ID=13

With all the setters it depends on the 'lines' they come from as to their working dog instincts! :)

I have a Gordon too, a bitch now age 2 1/2 and she is a sweetheart, but.... very gobby ( the setter wooo woo wooooooo), will run forever, shakes slobber all over the place, gets over excited at the drop of a hat ( or a lead, or a biscuit, or rubbish ..... you get the idea lol), she is a bit of an escape artist and bin raker, but has excellent recall - except if there are birds around - ducks being a particular favourite to chase! She is the first gundog I have had and I love her to bits, in a lot of ways she is a very easy dog, she will run for miles and does about 20 times the distance of our Bernese on a walk, yet she will also cope quite happily with less exercise. She adores our bernese and snuggles up to her regularly and although she is quite submissive with other dogs she shows absolutely no aggression, but will happily steal chews from the bernese, who will let her :rolleyes: . She is really just settling down now, at nearly three after a hyper 2 years. I would visit a few shows or breeders if you can to find out which kind suits you and your OH. Good luck on your search. :D

I'm going to the gundog day at Crufts next year so hopefully I will get to see a few!

Likewise I've got 2 male gordons.  As said earlier they will run and run and run given half the chance.  The slobber is something to take into account.   My oldest dribbles like mad whereas the youngerst doesnt soo much BUT the youngster is worse after a drink!!  He seems to manage to drip in from one of the house to the other (and that is with their water bucket outside!!)  They're coats can take alot of work and if you want to show them, be prepared for weekly/fornightly bathing.  One of mine takes around 2 hours to bath and dry  (not including stripping or trimming)

I've found them to be a very sensitive breed and they need firm but kind handling.  Have a look at this link from the Gordon Setter Association website which describes them well.

http://www.gordon-setter-association.co.uk/the_gordon_setter_characteristics.htm

I would say though that they do need to run and need off lead exercise where they can run and let off steam.   

If you're going to crufts pop down and see us.  I'll be there and Rachel will probably be there too (YOU ARE GOING RACHEL!!!)

I'm in the south East as well but let us know whereabout you live and I am sure between us we might know someone round about with Gordons. 

the only word of warning is THEY ARE VERY COLLECTABLE!!

Jill

Thanks for this, I hadn't realised there were drool issues with the breed. I am not sure if my OH could deal with that! I could. I could deal with all that..

I really does vary from dog to dog and from what I can gather , generally only the Males that are the dribblers!!

Jill

RE: the drool - I can't say with my lot it is that bad - only if panting/sweaty!!!

And yes Jill I am going!  Only with the baby boy - think Angus needs more coat and to settle down a wee bit being the looney that we all love - I do love him honest :)

The ones I've met at shows have very attractive personalities and temperaments as well.

The ones (Bar one) I've met haven't JG and I know a lot!

You forgot the Irish Red and white which are much calmer than the Red.

I have a friend that has a CKCS that lives with Gordon Setters and Large Munsterlanders. The Munsters are like a black and white Setter in many ways being setter sized, with similar build and temperament. The Cavalier, being a black/tan, thinks it's a Gordon.

Your best bet would be to go to some shows and meet the breeds in person and take it from there. The Brittany is a Hunt Point Retrieve (HPR) breed, not a Setter, and is a lively breed that want nothing more than to work, or so I believe.

Someone needs to edit where the Brittany is on Wikipedia then.. :rolleyes:

Does the "" about the CKCS suggest that I would be letting myself in for something extreme? :D

>Does the about the CKCS suggest that I would be letting myself in for something extreme:-D?

LOLOLOLOL My cavaliers think they are GSDs & one thinks he is also a Border Terrier. Had my old lad for his vet check up this week & he has never been happy at being in the vets, so was sitting very miserably until a young GSDs dog came out of one of the consulting rooms, the change was instant tail wagging madly & trying to get to say hello to the GSD :-D , he really misses our GSD who died last year, he grew up with her, as his adoptive mum

As for JD he also believes he is a Border Terrier & will do anything to get to greet one

Bless them!

I wonder if I get another dog they will think they are a CKCS. :D

lol maybe, our bully bitch grew up with our mastiff and she's much more mastiffy than all the others (much more inclined to bark etc). breed traits are apparently transferable :rolleyes:

What are peoples opinions of all the retrievers? How do they differ amongst them (looks aside)?

Golden retrievers (prividing they are not the working type) tend to be quite laid back, than say a lab. My golden loves exercise and is quite trainable, but she has a very much take it or leave it attitude, she would be happiest just being a pet dog rather than go to training classes. Labs vary depending on whether they are working type or not. The tollers that i know are mainly all from a particular line, whom are all quite laid back, but equally up for anything if you want them too. My friend has one that does agility and flyball (and loads of tricks) but she is equally happy going for a walk or sleeping for most of the day. I wouldn't say she is particularly needy at all. THe line she came from are mainly breed for gundog work, so maybe different if you get one from agility bred lines as they tend to be a bit more collie ish. As far as serious gundogs are concerned they aren't most peoples first choice when choosing a gundog, most tend to go for a working lab or maybe a working retriever. Flatcoats seem to vary, my trainer has some very laid back ones whereas some i have met have been quite crazy. I don't have much experience of some of the other gundog breeds though.

Thank you!

I seem to be reading quite mixed things about the Toller & the Flat Coat, one minute they are crazy exercise hungry beasts & the next they are laid back loving ideal family dogs. I think these two are now pretty much what I am looking at the most but I can't find two writings on them that agree - I guess I need to see the dam & sire to know what I am letting myself in for as I assume a poorly bred or fed version of these dogs are why some people think they are "hyper" or crazy. I have heard that Tollers are Border Collies in disguise, even!

I just would like a dog that would be able to do any training I want to do (I am looking at any dog sports, really, agility just looks most common) as I would like to start it but I don't want to bring home a breed that wants to carry on for another ten miles (hyperbole, I know) after my CKCS has had enough. So something she could keep up with that would be content when she's had enough (since she's here first & she is the limit I have) & would be content with this & the training. I don't know if that is at all clear!

Some years ago I had an English Springer Spaniel. I met a man (who I later married) who had a CKCS. The two got on really well. After a year we got a Large Munsterlander. The Munster and the Springer ran circles round the CKCS, but then they also covered far more ground in that she stayed close whereas they would do more running about in the undergrowth. It was only in her latter years that she couldn't keep up. The problem we had with her was that once she got a scent it took ages to get her to catch up ;) She was definately into smells on walks. :)

Good luck in finding just the right breed for you.

Also expectations.  One persons idea of laid back is another persons idea of hyper.

I consider my breed very laid back, but then I also consider any dog should get a minimum of an hours walk a day.  Even when I am ill as at the moment with bronchitis they get a half hour road walk.  I am sure they would forgive me for the odd day with no walk, because they are an off and on dog, happy to be lazy at home and raring to go when out.  My first dog of a herding breed would go stir crazy if a walk was missed or when she was restricted to lead walks only while in season, but to be fair she died at 3 1/2 so had not reached a more mellow age.

I changed my breed because I wanted something less needy, yet when I said this to soemone in that breed they were surprised as to them my original breed don't seem needy at all.

One mans meat is another mans poison.

Very true about interpretation. I also guess that these things could, to an extent, be picked up from me or my current dog. My current dog will spend most of the day fast asleep & when she's not she will play a bit. To me that is ultra calm. I don't expect a gundog to be that calm whatsoever. More that I want a dog that after their daily exercise will happily sleep!

I live with 3 Flatcoats and all 3 have very different temperments, my oldest one (bitch) has always just been happy to settle down and was happy with whatever length of walk she got, my middle one (male) is always on the go and is up and about at every tiny movement you make (he is a half brother to my oldest yet so different), he would go all day if he was allowed - although he does have other issues. My youngest (bitch) is still really a baby and does have a very wild streak to her but she is also more than happy to settle down if there is nothing going on. She did however go through a little phase where she was bouncing off the walls even after a good long walk - although only lasted a couple weeks.

Training wise they are more than capable mine have all done obedience and agility (although only starting the youngest now), my oldest has also done flyball and many other ykc events.  Once you have totally worked out the personality they are great fun to train but get it slightly wrong and they can be very hard work, my youngest wont take any sort of firm handling, yet my boy worked far better for it. 

Thank you.

Do you think there are gender specific differences between your three or is it just general personality?

I have 2 Tollers and they'll both take as much exercise as I want to give them but in the house they're quite happy just to settle down, and they're both very affectionate. As for being serious, my older Toller in particular (now nearly 7) never takes anything seriously, life is a game to him. You say you've heard that Toller are Border Collies in disguise, well you missed a bit out, they're Border Collies in disguise with an 'off' switch :D . I also have a Border Collie and the Tollers have been a breeze to live with compared to him.

>Toller & the Flat Coat, one minute they are crazy exercise hungry beasts

This is exactly how i would describe the toller's i have met,not met many flatcoats.But the tollers are very bouncy and exercise needy,so be prepared

What brainless says is very true, it depends on what your expectations are. I love hyper dogs (as long as they are trained) - as i compete in agility and flyball. I live with a totally mad working sheep dog as well as too more laid back gundogs. To me all the tollers i have met seem quite laid back, but then it depends on your definition of laid back. My springer and goldie are almost too laid back for me sometimes, but most people would consider them mad! My friends toller seems very laid back in comparison. gets 2 walks a day off lead for about 45 mins each. Doesn't run around like a mad dog, just potters along sniffing. (whereas my two gundogs disappear into the undergrowth and run for miles!) DOes agility and flyball but rather than being a hyped up collie she does it calmly and nearly always goes clear. She loves doing tricks and things and is very trainable. Her termperament is fantastic. Shes good with other dogs and great with children, infact when she was a puppy she used to stay in the classroom whilst my friend taught. She loves kids. I may be lucky but the others i have met have always been similar. However, i would find a cav far too laid back for me, so its a very subjective thing.

Thank you for that.

I know that the calmness is subjective so I guess it is having a scale of it that helps. I agree on the Cavalier front. The fact you say a Toller is calmer than a Collie is essentially what I am looking for, I think.

I think you'll always get exceptions in any breed.   My breed are known for being very active and some can be quite headstrong, mine are pretty laid back my male even more so, you can't generalise a breed on meeting one or 2.

My sisters Cavalier can/will walk as far as my dogs do, although she doesn't hunt out as far as them however she can manage 3 hours of walking no problem, my sisters Pug on the other hand, I wouldn't dream of taking that far.