I've posted this on another forum too, as I want as many opinions as poss.....

Right, I need totally honest opinions please.

I went to see "my" litter today. They are three weeks old, utterly adorable and I have narrowed my choice down to two. No problems there.

BUT!

The breeder and I were chatting about the Mum. She is THE most gorgeous, gorgeous dog. Temperament second to none. I adore her and in fact was looking forward to seeing her again as much as I was looking forward to seeing the pups. She is 7, and the breeder said that since this will be her last litter, that she will be looking for a retirement home (the dog, not the breeder) and she then uttered the immortal words "If you choose a bitch, you can take T home with you too...."

So now of course I'm in a quandary. She is such a gorgeous dog. My DP, much as I thought he would be aghast at the very IDEA of having two dogs, is in fact fairly up for the idea... he fell for T too when we first went to look, and he isn't even a particularly "doggy" person. I think he's of the attitude "in for a penny in for a pound" lol!

So I need honest opinions. Would it be a really bad idea? Are two dogs hugely more work than one? I would NEVER get two puppies but I do like the idea of having two dogs as company for each other on the (very rare) occasions that we would go out without them. Can you have an older, ex-breeding bitch spayed? Why did the breeder say "if you get a bitch" etc.... can you not keep a mother/son combo?

Please post honest opinions - although I admit I am hoping you all go "Go For It!!" I really DO want honest opinions......

Hi

I'd love to know the breed....

I cant say about mother/daughter combos, heirarchies or anything like that I dont know enough.  I have two dogs and I think it is loads better than one and no more trouble effort wise - walking feeding etc.

The only place it does make a difference for me is with the vet - I recommend to anybody that before they take on a dog they reassure themselves about the health.  My second dog I love to pieces but learnt the expensive way - once I got him home and to the vet within a few days I found he had several problems which now cost me about £150 per month (averaged out over the year). 

Go for it - two dogs are better than one..

Maxine

I think alot will do on how the bitch has been bought up at the breeders. Is she a pet as well as a bitch that she breeds from. How many other does she have and is it normal practice she always rehome bitches after they are past their breeding life capabilities ?

If the bitch has been brought as as a family pet then it could work out very well as the bitch will be used to a family home environment a very good trainer for the pup ( you will of course be the no 1 trainer ;) ) if she has been trained well herself. Yes you can get the bitch spayed and would be recomended if you are getting a dog unless you are 100% sure you could keep them seperated when she is in season.

She is very much a house dog when not breeding :)

If I get a dog, I'll have it neutered anyway - would there be any more risk to having a 7 year old bitch spayed?? If so, I'll just have the dog neutered if I get a dog. If not, I'll have them both "done".

I wonder what would happen to some of the breeds if people didn't pet home some slightly older ones or ones that perhaps were not good enough in conformation quality for showing and breeding.  Does everyone thing ALL good breeders keep everything they have kept past 8 weeks..

I personally think there is a happy medium.  People outcry when they hear of breeders occasionally pet home the odd dog to a lovely exceptional home BUT is that not really more " Selfless" than keeping 6+ dogs when it is impossible to love, care , train, play, walk as well as a good home one to one.

There are many excellent people who have " saved" breeds that fall into this catogory. I have actually bought in a couple older ones myself. 

I have also let 3 youngsters that I decided to let go to a good home. Now these exceptional homes I am talking about, ( those of you who have done it will know exactly what I mean)   is not ones that come in everyday puppy enquiries, they come from ones that you just hit it off with , and you know they are probably the best owners in the world, perhaps retired etc these people can often give a dog a more one to one loving home that the breeder even though that breeder loves they dogs with all her heart, and will be broken hearted for months.   She may know she has to continue her lines to protect and promote the breed like good breeders should , she may be one that just will not go above 6 dogs but has 3 or 4 oldies that are still there.   To me this is far more selfless than selfish..  

Sometimes people need to sit back and be a bit more opened minded as to why people do things, no everyone does things for selfish or monetary reasons.  I pet homed a bitch at 2 years old who took pyometra, I still break my heart even though she comes for trimming every 2 months.  I pet homed our family labrador as she was fighting with one of my other bitches . My husband and I were upset for a long time.  Parting with animals doesn't mean you don't love them.

Anyone I know who has let slightly older ones go have had even tough criteria, such as local to the breeder so that he/she can still see the dog,   some stricter criteria like middle aged older semi retired.  Hey I would love to go live with these people :-)

That is exactly what I meant.  If the breeders in my breed which has few enough experienced long time breeders still around as it is didn't occasionally do this we would have lost them 20 years ago.  Sadly we are loosing more experienced folk than we are gaining their replacements.  Due to modern pressures we really need twice as many new good breeders as the ones we are losing as there are so few who will be able to keep as many dogs or breed as regularly as their predecessors.

That is exactly what I meant. 

Yip I knew that Barbara :-)  I was suprised you were the only one who could see outside the box.

Heaven help many breeds if people didnt let some go.  

On the flip of the coin look at how many breeders or big kennels are bursting at the seems with dogs. To me that isn't a life for a dog.  

Wonder how many people got their foundation bitch in these circumstances.  I bet a few.  A young bitch perhaps something like a year old, who is of very good quality BUT perhaps just not as good as the breeder wants, especially if she has had major success with others.

So many varying reasons.

I wish in retrospect that I had been able to have my foundation bitches mother after her litter, but she had been promised elsewhere and lived out her life as a much loved pet, shown on occasion in veteran as her owners decided to get one to show later.

If she was a well adjusted pet dog; used to household noises, used to traffic, well socialised with dogs and people, no aggression problems then I'd take her. I would always take any puppy out by itself so it learned to deal with the world independantly of my other dog(s) and I'd probably make even more of a point of doing this if a puppy was with its mother. You want to make sure your new little one is confident when on its own.

What a great deal! I'd love to have my puppy's mum. She's such a great dog. (well, of course or I wouldn't have one of her pups! :)) I like having two dogs so when I do leave them they usually have a companion. I do take them out separately as well.

The only question mark (and one I will be checking up on) is the traffic thing.... I very much doubt, tbh, that she goes out for  "walks"  much since the breeder has a lot of land and the dogs have such free access to exercise, plus they're out in the sticks a bit.

If that is the case, would it still be possible to acclimatise her to traffic etc, given her age? I would be perfectly willing to do any necessary training - in fact it would give me something to do while I'm waiting for the little one to have all his/her jabs and be big enough for longish walks! I would certainly train pup apart from mum, too :)

I guess another thing is that she might not be used to different BREEDS of dog, being as she is, part of a breeding kennel.... hmm....

In general I think it's a great idea. Dogs are much better in twos (or fours :D) and having mUm around will much improve pups doggy manners. I wonder if you could borrow her for a couple of days once the pups are weaned to see how she coped with traffic, other dogs on walks etc as it sounds like she's had quite an isolated life? Bear in mind when you have her on trial that she will be nervous in a strange home and may not listen to you the way she listens to her current owner but it should still be valuable to assess her. You don't want to have a bitch that requires a lot of training as your hands will be full with the pup.

Thanks Tigger that's great advice - especially about "borrowing" her :)

... and thanks to everyone for their input :D  xxx

Just out of interest will she be coming to you for free ? When you say she is from a breeding kennel how many breeding bitches do they have and how many litters has she had  ?

I have a breeder friend who does this very often, retires her bitches when they get to this age, she sees it as a good thing and always raves about what a lovely home they go to and how they are enjoying their retirement, I don't see it myself, don't think it's right but each to their own, she kennels her dogs which I've always thought is how she can do it as opposed to having them in the home and making them more family.

This friend of mine always spays her bitches first though, and she does sell them, (not sure how much) to suitable homes.

I would say go for it, you know the bitch, you like her, the breeder has passed you to have one of her pups so you must be ok for the breed. :-) The pup will have a role model, the age difference is good, it has more pluses than minuses.

Will she still have plenty of country walks, fields, large parkland, woodland etc to free run everyday? If that is what she is used to, hopefully the traffic thing is just a walk on the way to a nice open place, if not that would be my only worry, she may be happier in a home with free running.

Though the most important thing as always is a loving home, where she will be loved and cared for. 

Good luck, I hope this ex breeding bitch has a happy retirement home in you. Bless her she deserves it. :-)

i think my only concern would be would i actually WANT a puppy from someone who clearly treats her dogs as nothing more than brood bitches

think my only concern would be would i actually WANT a puppy from someone who clearly treats her dogs as nothing more than brood bitches

It is true what you say sam, but unfortunately many do breed like this, in defence as with my friend the bitches are well cared for and of good lines, temperaments and shown etc, good breeders who pass on bitches should spay also.

My only worry with this bitch in particular unless KateC does not have all the facts yet is that this bitch will be sold on un-spayed, imagine what could happen to her, how easily she could fall into unscrupulous hands and be used as a breeding bitch until she dies, uncared for and shut in a shed forever and a day.  Shame on any breeder who advertises unspayed ex-breeding bitches, but I see it all the time on free adds. :-(

I'm just thankful for this bitch whom KateC has actually met, may find a wonderful loving home and be cared for properly.

Oh blimey Carrington your post has just brought tears to my eyes.... ohhh my heart..... oh how can I not have her now???? Aaargh..... :D

Of course the other side of the coin is that some breeders like to have a regular turn over of new stock to take in the Ring and can keep quite a number of dogs, but the ones no longer being shown do not get as much attention as the breeder feels they deserve so homing them when relatively young (probably five years ahead of them or more) they see as their reward for services rendered, as they are ensuring they have a home where they will be one of only one or two canines.  After all if the bitch was home bred she will only be going to her first home from the breeder, same as if she were sold as a pup.

This is something my breeder tended to do, but she preferred they went after only one litter at say four, in a breed that lives an average of 12 years plus.  As she wanted to remain active breeding but was getting on in years she needed to keep no more than a couple of dogs,a and had a few pensioners and say two younger current breeding bitches, which she let go after a litter, and so on.  When she died she just had 4 dogs for her daughter and friends to find homes for.

If she had not taken this pragmatic view I would not have had my foundation bitch or the benefit of her guidance, and her knowledge would have been prematurely lost to the breed.

Most of the retired ones went to homes that already ha one of her dogs, or past puppy owners.

As yet I have never contemplated letting any of mine go from here, and am young enough and patient enough to wait several years between dogs.

There are certainly people who have had pups from me or in the breed who I would consider for one of mine if it was something I could do.  I never say never, but at this stage I couldn't retire one of my girls, but in 20 years I ma feel differently, if I really want to keep my finger on the pulse regarding my breeding plans ans still keep to manageable number of dogs.

Breeders are not just pet owners or exhibitors but also the best of them are the custodians of the breed.

hmmmm well glad to say that there are none doing it in my breed!!!

hmmmm well glad to say that there are none doing it in my breed!!!

What nobody in your breed has ever let a slightly older dog go to a fantasic pet home.   What is the numbers in your breed sam?  What do all of these people produce champions or show stoppers that are vital to the future of the breed everytime they run on a puppy.

Do you honestly thing that someone keeping say 10 dogs and are running at full capacity because they just morally think they shouldn't let the 12 month old bitch that just didn't quite turn out as the breeder hoped and turn away an absolutely fantastic home, one to one, on a 2 acre plot to a semi retired couple.  You think the breeder is the ethical and moral place for the 12 month old to stay.. ? wonder what the 12 month old would think!!!!!!!!! :-)

Blue im sure that i know several who have let the slightly older dog go that they have run on from a puppy and it didnt quite turn out......however....the OP was refering to someone who has had a few litters from the bitch...who is now no longer required and so is happy to get rid of her. That is what we are discussing and to what i am refering to!

Sam your last reply were not to comments from the OP but behind Brainless when she explained why some people rehome dogs.  You replied saying you are glad nobody doesn't it in your breed. That reply was not to the first post but after a valid explaination.

who is now no longer required and so is happy to get rid of her.

With all due respect I don't think the Op said the breeder was happy just to get " rid" of her. Perhaps the breeder hit it off with the OP and felt she was the ideal person to take on the bitch.

Whilst if there was a case of wrong doing then I would 100% agree with you BUT we do not know the breeder or the circumstances as to why this bitch would be avaliable.

I just think sometimes "we" are all a bit guilty of conviction with out full findings.  I have seen it a lot this week myself and I am pretty stern in my opinion about how dogs should kept, how good the should be before breeding etc. 

Yes - although we live on an estate we have a decent sized garden but most importantly we have LOADS of fields, woods and country parks within short walking distances :)

The most important question I guess is: in the event of me needing to, just how trainable are  "old"  dogs??

You can train any old dog but the difficulties will be only measurable with knowing the full background of the dog :)

just how trainable are  "old"  dogs??
:-)

IME dogs settle into a new enviroment very quickly, although ones with behavioural problems can be difficult and need behaviourists and training.

This one should just settle nicely with you, I know there is that saying, 'You can't teach old dogs new tricks' but I've never found this to be true, all dogs IME are trainable, it's the emotional damage that isn't, (sometimes) but as for new routines, new living arrangements, new commands............... no problem. :-)

It all seems very favourable so far and I'm beaming :D

I will ring the breeder tomorrow with a list of questions and go from there :D

Of course you could get her spayed, that is what most breeders so at this point and to be hones the ones that I know who re-home do this before the bitch goes when pups are about 12 weeks.

I know one lady in my breed who had a dog pup and then after a few weeks and he had settled his Mum too.

Of course I am assuming the Mum is well mannered with a good level of pet obedience.

I would say the best match would be the Mum spayed with her son. as there are very rarely any issues between the sexes, unless this is a breed where males are particularly domineering and strong minded and not advised for a novice..

Well reading all the above I can't see that you will come home without her. I believe that two dogs will keep each other company and pup will learn his/her lesson from her (don't agree with two pups sold together). Like Sam, I just don't believe that breeder is letting her bitch go but unfortunately some breeders do this. She will be a very lucky girl to have fallen on her feet going home with someone that already things she is wonderful.

Blimey.

My DP is now talking about laminating downstairs  "because the carpet will look awful with two dogs walking on it"  (it's sort of wheat coloured, which was a stupid colour to get with kids, I'm always shampooing it)....

This is the man who it has taken me 8 years to persuade to allow me to have a dog.... and now he's well up for two! But then he really did take to her.....

KateC

Just interested why you have ignored any of my questions ? :)

Lucy
xx

I got a 2 year old that was kenneled all his life. I went back to basics and he is now very good in the house. Where as my old girl, who went to the bridge yesterday was never 100% in the house in the 10 1/2 years I had her.
It is easier to rehbiliotate a dog in a new enviroment then in the same one. Only in my experience.
Lea.

She maybe doesn't know Lucy :-D :-)

Sorry Lucy - 'twasn't deliberate :)

The answers are - yes, don't know and don't know, although I'll ask a bit more tomorrow :)

Kate,

When the puppies are up a bit go over if possible and take the bitch out for a long walk , interact with her, take her to your home and see what she is like.

If the breed is genuine she will be fine with it all.

I have taken on older dogs one had been kennelled a lot and it took a while to get her lead confident passing cars etc, and the other was a bit of a barker but we re trained them.

I agree with Blue, I have had two rescue dogs, a Lhasa who was 4 and a current dog Biscuit a Labrador (2).  They both had their own issues when they arrived at my house.  I retrained the Lhasa to a very satisfactory level and the Lab although trained in obedience did not like other dogs at all, I took him to a behaviourist for a few weeks and to this day carry on with the training and we had ten years with Nell before she passed away and still train Biscuit daily especially taking him where other dogs are (not perfect but lots better).  When Nell was 10 we got a puppy (cocker spaniel) we trained him and Nell joined in you can most definately teach an old dog new tricks. 

havnt had time to read the whole thread but is it mother/daughter? this combo can be lethal and lead to fights later and one almost always has to be rehomed

Luckily I've never had that problem, having kept mother and daughter. :) People I know have had found two bitches of similar age to be far more problematical in that way than mother and daughter.

I have kept 6 generations of mother/daughters with never a problem, but the ones closest in age Mum had to put daughter in her place, but daughter had just come back as an adolescent.

A 7 year age gap isn't going to cause a problem.

I have kept mother and daughter and then from that daughter kept her daughter and never had any problems. I suppose there may be some breeds that you couldn't do it with but I would never expect mine to have any issues amongst themselves. Hope I never live to regret making that statement!

I had the odd spat between adolescent sisters when I had a pup back, while I was rehabilitating her and then she was re homed with a friend, but she has stayed with us and they have been the best of friends for years so I suspect that was just settling in.

our mother and daughter combo don't fight at all, Kismet lets Keeper away with everything up to a point, them Keeper totally yields to her mummy.  only one bitch i've ever met didn't get on with her bitch pups and thats out of several mother/daughter combos...surely its not correct that they usually end up fighting how would most breeders keep their line going? you can't keep dogs all the time, you'd never breed your own pups

I think the age gap of 6-7 years would make it hopefully trouble free. I have mother and daughter and they are a lot closer in age.. No problems.

I have had mother and daughter as well ( 3yr gap)and they got on very well but Min did let Mars do alot for her like wash her all over after a wet walk etc. Min was the Peter Pan of Labradors :)

I have my foundation bitch, two of her daughters and two grand-daughters and there is never a cross word between them.  Sometimes I almost wish there were as they could do their bit to sort out new puppies.  I'm sure most breeders at some stage keep one of their bitch puppies to continue their lines and therefore I find this comment quite strange!

No problem just want to make sure you have asked all the questions so you can make your mind up hopefully having all the facts in front of you :)

Sorted. We're having her :D :D :D

Spoke to the breeder who put my mind at rest over whether the dog is used to household noises etc  (she is)  and if she is housetrained  (she is)  and a few other questions.... there will be no charge for her, and the breeder is happy to pay for her to be spayed  :D

Can't wait to get her home and spoil her :D

Thank you all for your input xxx

A fabulous 'result'.

Karen ;-)

That sounds a lot more like it

Good luck with her and the pup and let us know how you get on :)