My dog whelped 16 days ago 10 puppies, I counted only 7 afterbirths, took bitch to the vets one day after the birth to have pups and bitched checkd and he said all ok.  Took them back day 3 for a scan and vet said nothing was left over she must have passed/eaten then without us noticing, he did say milk supply very low and we were unlikely to raise them all by hand so we made mad plans and managed to find a nursing bitch to foster 6 of pups.  Remaining 4 pups made brilliant progress with mum.  On Friday day 14, 3 pups started to have diarriah took to vets he said mum may have toxic milk advised take pups away from bith and hand rear, he took blood and smear from mum as she had clear discharge. he rang yesterday with results, blood OK, smear didn't seem bad although he has advised another scan on Monday with a view to hysterecotomy as he thinks maybe somethings brewing? Been hand rearing pups and last night the pup that had been clear of diarriah started with it 36 hours after coming off the bitch.  Can anyone help? Do you think I should agree to hysterecomy? Should I try pups back with the bitch? (who's going mad with grief from the separation) should I feed pups on formula, goats milk or water and honey?

What have you been feeding them with?  Also you have to remember not to give too much as this will upset their tummies.

Oh my word you poor thing.

Try to get the pups to feed from mum....never heard of toxic milk...what ever does it mean? If she has mastitis then her milk may have pus and blood in it, otherwise it should be fine.
None of this...speaking as a breeder and a midwife...sounds logical to me.

Actually thinking about this I would want my vet to give me some antibiotics for the pups. A small dose of synulox for 3 days should do the job.

Thanks for advice katypoo and sharon.  I'm really losing confidence in my vets, I think that he should have given her an injection anyway to check that she had delivered all afterbirths, and his advice about hand rearing the pups and not giving them anti biotics seems odd to me - he said that antibotics kill good bactaria as well as bad and that there might be a problem with the pups in later life.  Anyway put pups back with the mum 2 hours ago and although they still have the runs it doesn't seem as bad and the mum is so much more contented. 

A dollop of live yoghurt with friendly bacilli does the job of relining the gut after ABX.  The rest will come with mum's milk. Glad she looks better, Don't worry.

Toxic milk is a reality and will kill the whole litter. If your vet thinks this, then they need to be hand fed. The condition may be rare, but it does exist.

What do you mean by "toxic milk"?? never heard of it before. What does the milk contain?

I can understand infected milk if the bitch is ill, but not otherwise, bht bitch doesn't sound to be having such problems.  Of course anything that the bitch ahs goes through the milk, that includes the antibiotics that she is on.

This source tends to agree with the view I put foward http://www.gsdhelpline.com/puppyhood.htm

"Nursing from bitches with mastitis or with teats contaminated by uterine discharge may produce a rapidly fatal gastroenteritis characterized by foamy vomitus and liquid feces. Such pups often exhibit severe abdominal pain, rapidly dehydrate from the diarrhea, and usually cry continuously. An entire litter may die. Antibiotic and fluids treatment are often futile. Some breeders refer to "toxic milk" in such cases, but it has not been established that the milk is abnormal, even though some veterinarians may attribute the illness to milk toxins, metritis, or failure of the uterus to involute properly. "

Been using Whelpi, but this afternoon decided to put pups back with the mum as she seems fine and the vet said that as she's on antibiotics the pups should get some of that through her milk and that might help the diarriah. 

Pups far better off on mum's milk, no doubt about this at all. I am a bit non-plussed by your vet's advice. Puppies with diarrhoea need attention. Describing the scenario which you do, I would have thought it was most advisable to treat the pups too, just to be sure.

Also bitches will have bloody discharge sometimes for weeks after whelping.  Unless there is an unpleasant odour (other than what you would expect from blood) then there is no infection.

Also it takes several days for there to be much milk which is why for the first 3 or four days pups suck almost continuously to stimulate milk, and as long as pups are strong then enough should e made.  If for some reason pups are weak or it takes unusually long to get milk started then you may need to help out, weighing pups should tell you if this is needed if they loose more than an ounce or so.

A friend recently had to deal with litter where the bitch was thought to have a phantom and given Galastop to dry up milk.  She had none at all for a week, but because pups were allowed to suckle by a week the bitch was feeding the pups unaided.

A poster some time back had a bitch who reacted badly post whelping wanting to kill the pups, she too eventually accepted them and her milk came in nd they were able to be on Mum only after a few days.

Milk production is on a supply and demand basis.  Even a litter of 10 shouldn't be a big problem for a medium to large breed bitch as that is how many teats most have.

Some very Maternal bitches can come into milk when a litter is born to another bitch and they will feed them.

A lot of Vets know very Little about breeding beyond C sections.

Also just wanted to add I believe the idea of Toxic Milk is an old wives tale.  My Jozi had infected Mastitis last year at Christmas with congested milk blood and puss in the gland.  The puppies had the sense to avoid that gland and continued to suckle as normal from the others.  A good course of strong antibiotics safe for lactation was given to her and I had to express the gland (put me of tomato and then mushroom soup for months).  Once th gland was clear milk flowed as normal and pups barely had a hiccough in weight gain.  they were about 10 days at the time.

Thank again for the advice, I'm going to the vets tomorrow to ask for some synalux, and will try the yogart. Mabel and pups still seem ok, will keep you updated.

he said mum may have toxic milk advised take pups away from bith and hand rear, he took blood and smear from mum as she had clear discharge. he rang yesterday with results, blood OK, smear didn't seem bad although he has advised another scan on Monday with a view to hysterecotomy as he thinks maybe somethings brewing?

I know it is difficult when we are not there oursleves as sometimes a vets information is not relayed exactly as spoken, but from your post, if all is even 90% fact, it just makes no sense.

I don't understand why any of the pups were taken away in the first place to foster bitches, 10 pups to feed is fine by a mum who seemed to have no problems apart from you worrying she had not passed all her afterbirths, I'm sure that your bitch would have fed them just fine as already advised teats do not fill up properly until 2 weeks later, if the pups were loosing weight then the vet may mention hand raising????????????

The blood tests were fine............ why a hysterectomy? something brewing?????????? I don't get that either.

Go to another vet!!!  It would be terrible if this were all pure speculation, and a vet trying to make money from a new breeder who knows no different and a litter and it's mother were seperated for no reason.

Whatever he is giving the bitch may also be causing the diarrohea in the pups,

Go for a second opinion please. Your pups and bitches lives are too important.

I agree with Carrington,get a second opinion from a different vet,it couldnt hurt,and all this worry may be for nothing!

And thanks to Brainless for the graphic description of

>I had to express the gland (put me of tomato and then mushroom soup for months).

I wont ever view tom/mushroom soup the same way again :D

My hats off to all of you breeders,the worry,work and stress you guys go through regularly would turn me into a blithering mess.It truly does take a special person to do it right :)