Is it ever acceptable to use the same stud dog on the same bitch for 4-6 litters?  Under what circumstances (if any) would you feel this was acceptable?

None.  Even in breeds where singletons are the norm sooner or alter you shoudl get soemthing to keep long before that many attempts.  If lack of quality is the problem well repeating it over and over isn't likely to change that either.

Not in my book no!  Two, yes in some cases.  I wouldn't feel it's acceptable for a bitch to have 4 - 6 litters in the first place let alone to the same dog!

But that's JMO :d

Debs

4 Litters tops for my breed and then only if previous litters were not large.  Most breeders are more than happy with 1 to 3 litters from their bitches.  This having given them a choice of combinations to get that next generation.

I wouldn't have more than 3 litters from any bitch (maybe, possibly, 4 if each litter was with just 1 or 2 pups) but I can't see the point in using the same stud more than once. Twice if the first time didn't include what you wanted.

No. For a start that's more litters than my breed club allows from a bitch, and there's no point in limiting the gene pool so much when you could be expanding it by using other studs. A single repeat mating, if the first litter from the two was very high quality, is acceptable, but no more than that IMO.

No to so many litters and I wouldn't repeat the mating anyway. My previous litter produced two JW winners and one of them with a RCC. I was asked to repeat the mating, but for me it was no use having another daughter from that mating which is why I breed (to carry on a line).

You know J/G & Brainless, I wish my breed club had the same code of ethics for breeding from bitches as your's do.  But basically all our's say is bitches of no less than 20 months (Yes - bearing in mind this is a slow maturing - mentally & physically - gundog breed) and no older than 8 years old can be mated and they have to be hipscored & eye tested negative for HC.    There's bitches having 4 or 5 litters, back to back matings, puppies being homed at 5 weeks........shall I go on?   

My breed club says that no bitch should whelp before the age of 2 years (it used to be that they shouldn't be mated before the age of two, but the rule was relaxed :() or over the age of 8 (as per KC rules), and no bitch should be bred from more than 4 times. No bitch should whelp less than 12 months since the birth of her last litter. Both dog and bitch should be free of known inherited defects.

This is one reason why I prefer breed club membership for breeders rather than KC Accrediation. The club is stricter.

My breed club (another slow maturing gundog) says not breeding before bitch 2.5yrs old, no more than 3 litters per bitch, hip scoring & goniodysgenesis, if I remember correctly.

I personally think there is no reason in the world to breed a bitch that much full stop and that is before I ask how many top dogs/bitches arrived from the first one or two litters.

Even if you had two fantastic litters from a bitch to a particular dog , I would still say IF you had to have another litter use another exectionally good dog and hope to get something good from that litter two , this will help the gene pool of the breed to have a mix.

Yet again I'm another person who is totally and utterly against this.  As others have said why on earth would you breed from a bitch so often and even more so with the same dog every litter?

I would be against 6 litters from one bitch. 6 litters same sire and dam shows little thought to the 'where next' part of the breeding programme. Would I be right in thinking this stud dog is also owned by the litter breeder? Of all the males in the country this dog was the most suitable and 6 times.

So why ask the question :) I feel no as think 4 litters is too many for one bitch never mind the same stud dog :)

Lucy
xx

"So why ask the question"

I asked the question because I wanted to know if ANYONE here found it acceptable to breed 4-6 litters using the same stud dog and if they did, on what grounds :)  The Kennel Club do not have a problem with breeders breeding 6 litters from any one bitch and they do not have a problem with the same stud dog being used or if consecutive litters are involved. In the eyes of the KC, the breeder is doing no wrong. Thank you all for your replies and comments. Very interesting :)

That is interesting as must admit I didn't realise about the 6 litters point Has this ever been challenged with the KC ?

There never used to be any limits on number of litters or age.

This was changed some years ago to a maximum of 6 litters.  Except with special permission bitches whelping over 8 years old cannot have litters registered or if the bitch is mated before 1 year of age.

The Kennel club did ask breed clubs to draw up their own breed specific codes of ethics, and most have stricter limits than the general ones the kennel club use.

In this computer age I don't see why the KC couldn't use individual breed limits, as to litter numbers and ages.

If they reduced the numbers then would it not in some way deter puppy farms as one positive point besides stopping the bitch being used as a breeding machine :(

Doesn't stop puppy farmers now, they simply don't register with the kennel club.

In fact the breeding and sale of dogs act only allows 6 litters from a bitch and there has to be clear 12 months between litters for registered breeders.  So what it the point of that law when it is so easily flouted as there is no requirement for the pups to be registered, though records are required to be kept and inspected. 

You can have all the laws you like but if they are not enforced then what use are they.

I feel that is far to many litters for any bitch and why keep using the same dog. If you didn't get a decent pup to continue the line with in the first 2 litters then why keep doing it.

To me to have that many litters and especially to the same dog would in my opinion be a case of breeding for money.

I can only agree with everyone who's posted above. There is really nothing more to say that's not been mentioned already. In case the number of posts is important to Admin, add mine to the list :p

No, 2, perhaps 3 times if you were desperate for that particular cross and kept getting nothing but dogs and you wanted a bitch, or vice versa, but I too think 6 litters way too many for a bitch.

I don't breed, but can't imagine WHY you would want to use the same stud dog 6 times, or let a bitch have 6 litters, sounds a bit like puppy farming to me

Actually, that is a very good point, that I don't think any of us have challenged before, as to why in this day and age the KC do allow upto 6 litters from a bitch by the same stud.

I think that does need looking at now.

I think perhaps it is understandable with a new or rare breed with two top quality standard dogs in trying to create good lineage, temperaments, health etc, but even so 6 times even then is pushing it, the sons and daughters should be reared and bred from, perhaps to erradicate health problems in using the same Dam and Sire may also be relevant in the past.

But in this day and age, I don't think there are any breeds of dog that are so rare or new or so unhealthy that they need an Adam and Eve to help out the breed.

Or are there?

The point is that it woudln't help any breed to have all the dogs bred the same way.  Even the differ3ence of half brothers and sisters has to be preferable to nothing but full siblings.

I think one repeat of any combination unless the litters are tiny and say the two litters produced less than 6 pups, is plenty and that maybe the time has come for the kenenl club to look at this.

I suppose they'd quote the clause from their code of ethics:
"Owners agree not to breed from a bitch in any way which is deleterious to the bitch or the breed"
but I think they'd be on shaky ground.

I don't think any bitch, regardless of litter sizes, shoud be mated 6 times.  I would make it 3 maximum.  If you cannot produce good quality puppies in one or 2 litters (Changing stud dogs if necessary) then why continue mating your bitch on the off chance you get lucky?

In toy breeds with ones and two's and high mortality in pups I think in some circumstances you might have to go over four to get your pup.

I think the 4 litters as in my breed is fair enough as it allows for the odd occasion where litters are small.

I have had up to three litters from any of my girls so far with a maximum of 18 pups born to any bitch.  One had just two litters with 8 pups in total.

If I had huge litters I might choose to have fewer, but if I had say two litters with small litters and a great opportunity to use a particular male might stretch to a fourth.  A lot depends on the fitness and age of the bitch.

I generally don't breed until around 3 years of age, so there wouldn't usually be time for more than three litters, with sufficient rests between.

My Jozi a top winning bitch with Champ show Group placings and a champ stakes win had her first litter at nearly four, her second nearly two years later, and her last about 18 months after that a month after her 7th birthday.  I used two different males, one a US import the other a Norwegian one so that I could use her offspring from both in future breeding plans.

Someone write to the dog paper it normally gets the debate going on there at least it would be in the public eye. May make people check before buying. 

The problem with the KC is it is still money .

Don't foget that the KC are also quite happy to register pups from a bitch that has gone only 5 months between litters! (good sized litters). I think that says it all!.

that is true but only for breeders who arent licenced. licenced breeders have to abide by different rules

Except it would seem they aren't checking if the breeder requires a license even when it is clear they have registered more than the number of litters to require one.

> Don't foget that the KC are also quite happy to register pups from a bitch that has gone only 5 months between litters! (good sized litters). I think that says it all!.

Just what I was about to say.

IMO they need to have a set minimum amount of time between litters registered for one bitch, and a limit on total pups per bitch (eg in a breed with average litter sizes of 10, six litters would on average be 60 pups, which seems far too many for one bitch to be expected to produce! And while you can't calculate how many pups a bitch will have per litter, a limit of 40 pups registered per bitch would sound more than ample to me).

No - though I don't breed I wouldn't feel it was acceptable to have 4-6 litters out of one bitch, never mind the stud part. And I also can't see the point of using the same stud more than twice on one bitch - if you've not got what you wanted from two matings then you probably aint gunna! :) And it's important to keep genetic diversity within a breed and not have too many similar matings - imo.

>>>Is it ever acceptable to use the same stud dog on the same bitch for 4-6 litters?<<<<<<

why would it be acceptable to breed that many litters from a bitch? Not for me I must say but each to their own

Maybe just maybe if she had just singletons, but certainly not to same stud dog.