I'd be interested in your thoughts on the need to maintain high working drives in breeds that are now largely used as companions or show dogs .

I'm thinking specifically of those breeds that were bred traditionally to do a job of work ( herding/hunting/guarding etc) - how responsible is it to try and maintain these drives when most pups will not be able to fulfill them - should we not be aiming to produce dogs that fit more comfortably within a domestic home ?.

I have been in my breed ( BSD) for over 20 years - in that time I have noticed a distinct change in their temperament - they used to be  very wary of strangers - with a very marked  tendency to guard and very very active. ....my present generation are mostly super friendly, calm and easy going !....so much so that two of them work as Therapy dogs for disabled children. When judging the breed I have also noticed an 'improvement' in temperament the very shy dogs now being the exception rather than the rule.

BUT are we really  'improving' the  breed by breeding dogs with such easy going temperaments ...or are we  doing the breed a disservice by changing their innate personality ? ...certainly those with high drive working line bred BSD (mostly working bred Malinois ) would think so.....but just how responsible is it to continue to breed for 'awsome biting power' ? (seen in  a recent advert for working bred Malinois) ...and why is 'gameness still regarded as a valued trait in Staffys and other terriers. ?

In fact I think the dog owning public are voting with their feet ---look at the huge explosion in designer companion 'breeds' and the corresponding drop in ownership of almost all types of terriers apart from staffs, WHWT and Borders and the larger sight hounds.

Should we be responding to this by creating a temperament more suited to todays lifestyles ...or should we see the retention of the ability to do the work they were originally bred to do as vital ?

your thoughts ?

An interesting dilemma.

It's not even as easy as a modern lifestyle as opposed to a historical one. There's the city/country dichotomy too. There's really no need for herding breeds in cities, let alone those with a high drive to fulfil their original purpose, but in rural areas they're still essential. If the doom-mongers are to be believed, today's modern lifestyle will have to change and it might be that there's a need again for dogs to fulfil their original purposes.

as a breeder of one of these breeds (hunting) i am delighted to report that not only has the drive and instinct NOT decreased or been bred out.....responsible breeders  are breeding hounds that succeed in both the ring and the hunting field and it simply means that one has to screen and select potential owners with a great deal more care than perhaps some other breeds have to. I had one of my 4 month old pups come for a visit last week and we took him to the field to see how "instinctive" he was, and he hunted immediately, accurately and with enormous enthusiasm. The day anyone tries to stop me breeding hounds that lack hunting drive and instinct will be the day you can nail up my coffin!

An interesting topic.

My personal view having owned Border Collies for many years, is a working bred (as in herding) BC is a nightmare in the average pet home.   Yes, if you work them in obedience or agility it will help, but I still think they need a specialist home.  Most of the BC's passing through rescue are from working stock having being sold to a pet home.

The show bred BC tends to be far more laid back and several generations away from the farm bred collie, they fit into a pet home very well. The obedience & Agility bred BC will still usually be high drive, but the herding instinct will have been diluted from those breeders that understand the breed.  I just wish more obedience & agility breeders would health test and look at the conformation of the dogs they are breeding from.  I can't for the life of me understand why so few breeders in these activities don't at least see the importance of having the dogs hip scored.

I think overall it is far better for the BC to have the herding instinct removed as most will go into pet homes, where they have to fit into suburban life, some will say don't get a BC if you live in suburbia, but why deny people this unique and wonderful breed because they don't live on a farm.  The dog will be much happier without that drive if he can't use it anyway.  There are of course the trial and working bred collies available for the shepherd, which is how it should be.

JMHO, I will be interested if others view it differently.

I can see that many more breeds will split into two distinct types, just as labradors, cockers and springers have. In some ways that's good - but I'm not quite sure intellectually if there's really a point to a retriever with no interest in retrieving, for example. If someone just wants a 'pet', there are plenty of crossbreeds and mongrels that would fit the bill. Intellectually the pure breeds would be better kept fit for their original purpose.

...and why is 'gameness still regarded as a valued trait in Staffys and other terriers. ?

depends what you would class as 'gameness'...?

bold, fearless and totally reliable, courage and tenacity - as per the breed standard for a Stafford - then yes, I would aim for that personality wise....
'gameness' to me means spirit, having spirit and a zest for life... and that spark in the eye...that I personally feel every Stafford should have.

and the corresponding drop in ownership of almost all types of terriers apart from staffs
I'd be interested to know what you think the reason is for the continuing popularity of the breed...cos tough they might look, toward humans - tough they ain't!  Once again 'perception' comes into play I suppose...

Anyhow I guess I haven't really answered the question adequately, but I think to an extent many breeds have become 'fitting' to the domestic home anyway.. many people seem to choose a breed who's personality suits them and their home - if you see what I mean?
I would like to see pure breeds kept for their original purpose where possible I think...

I agree this is a very interesting debate.

It is also a difficult one, the Working dogs of today are still excellent working dogs I don't think that that has changed mainly because anyone wanting a dog to work will stick with their own kind and only buy from a breeder of good standing with good solid lines, anyone after a dog to work or train up for FT's knows exactly where to go and are very unlikely to go to a pet breeder. ;-)

IMO The fact that many Working breeds are now pets and being bred and bred again by pet breeders has to be put in the hands of those original Working breeders who allowed their dogs to go to a pet home without endorsements.

Personally I think many pet reared working dogs are not happy bunnies, their instincts are still there and are not going to be bred out, if mated with another pet working dog, just because they do not work. I'm not against working dogs being in pet homes, but specialist pet homes, where they will get the exercise they need and a good level of interlect stimulation for their needs. I also don't want to see many breeds die out quite a few Working breeds numbers have fallen over the years, many have shot up also:rolleyes: but some need to be kept in focus and if that means in some select pet homes that is a good thing as far as I am concerned.

But, as for those in the wrong types of homes, I believe this is why so many reared working dogs are overweight and 'naughty' perhaps even aggressive, they are not leading the life they were bred mentally and bodily to do, it is bound to make some sort of affect on them as much as they adapt they can not escape from who they are.

How many dog trainers see 'problem dogs' that are only displaying breed characteristics? You know the scenario..The owners chose a puppy almost entirely on looks and availability. Ignoring what traits the breed what was originaly developed for. Then some months later they come to class......
I've had springers that run off and chase birds,
Terriers that want to kill the kiddies guinea pig.
Collies that have obsessive compulsive problems... fixating on moving objects.
Keeshonds that bark when left in the garden.
Newfoundlands that wont stop jumping into muddy puddles.
Siberian Huskies owned by full time workers who cant understand why their dog doesn't sleep all day on a 10min walk twice a day.
AND dont start me off on the small man with the Huge dog syndrome.....The list goes on......often the one thing they dislike most about their own dog is the main purpose for which it was developed.  

Oh it's an interesting topic - and a difficult one. In my opinion the question about whether dogs should be able to do the job they were bred for depends on the job :D

Taking my two breeds as examples, many of you know I have a dog aggressive borzoi. He's fine with other borzois, even ones he's never met - and some similar looking sighthounds are accepted but anything else is prey to him. It's not easy to live with and something I've spent 6 years trying very hard to change. However, having read accounts of borzoi hunt kennels back in the days of the russian czars the dogs sound very much like him. They had to be fierce and courageous and tenacious to hunt wolves, not only did they hunt them, and hold them for hunters but often a live wolf would be captured and taken back to the kennels. A single borzoi would then be pitted against the wolf, to prove it's worth or to train young dogs. My dogs dam was a bit 'sharp' which is something I wish I'd paid more attention too. Now I think that in something borzoi sized a softer temperament is essential (note I'm not calling it the correct temp, because I'm not sure it is). Other zois I've owned with softer natures have still raced and lure coursed, I doubt very much they'd have caught a wolf though - but then I never wanted them too - I'd rather have a dog that could run around off lead with the neighbours gsd.

In my other breed, border collies I love the proper working temperament. I've only ever owned one show bred collie and he was thick as mince, very pretty, but slow and gormless :D No offence meant to anyone else, I'm well aware that there are many examples of dual purpose dogs but going on my own experience I'll never have another show bred one. All the rest of my collies have came from farms, some have been isds but most unregistered. They've all been fabulous dogs, really clever, really quick and really funny. Of course they're not for everyone, collies love to make up their own entertainment if you're not providing enough for them - and they like to think of ways to help you, even if you don't think that biting the borzois neck while his nails are being cut is helping :rolleyes:  The problem with collies is that farm bred dogs are usually cheap, so these are the ones that end up in the majority of pet homes. Show bred ones may be more suitable for a lot of people but are more expensive and joe public doesn't know the difference. I don't know what the answer is with collies. Working dogs will always be needed, and there will always be people like me that prefer them as pets too.

I agree that some working dogs will be needed ....but realistically only a handful out of any litter will actually do the job it was bred for - the overwhelming majority will end up in a domestic 'pet' situation.

Tigger2's post is a good analogy ....just WHY would breeders of Borzois continue breeding the type of temperament that can hunt and kill a wolf ........and then expect it to be happy in the average home.? .... whats wrong with adapting  breeds  so that the public can get what it wants ...the looks but not the nature ?.

Most ethical breeders now work to eradicate health problems within their breeds - should we also be working on temperament 'problems'  too -  to ensure  that the dogs we breed will not be living a life of frustration or ending up on rescue because they are simply not suited to todays lifestyles ?

In my own breed , breeders of working line BSD consider them the true representative of their breed - and indeed temperamentally they may be ....BUT sadly it is these high drive hyperactive, stranger and dog aggressive dogs that end up on our breed rescue and are simply unrehomable , with the inevitable consequences for the dog....and a knock on effect for the reputation of the breed as a whole.

With the introduction of breed specific legislation - just how responsible is it to continue to maintain the 'true ' nature of some breeds ?

Yvonne

Working dogs are still needed very much they have taken centuries to have the characters, athletic bodies and traits needed for their jobs bred into them, so there is no use in working breeders trying to change their temperaments just for any remaining litter to fit in with pet homes, the only answer would be very specific homes with endorsements or culling the remaining litter. :-( leaving pet dogs to come just from Show bred homes with the better temperament for a pet home.

It would take an awful lot of co-operation from breeders for this to work and people like Tigger2 would have to prove to a breeder they could offer a suitable home for a working trait dog.

Of course for every responsible breeder who is very careful about placement there are 10 more BYB's and Puppy farms to destroy all the hard work. :-(

Working dogs are still needed very much they have taken centuries to have the characters, athletic bodies and traits needed for their jobs bred into them, so there is no use in working breeders trying to change their temperaments just for any remaining litter to fit in with pet homes, the only answer would be very specific homes with endorsements or culling the remaining litter.

However in BSDs, when did a SHPEHERD's dog suddenly become a dog that must bite as hard as possible and be used for man work?

Whether they bite hard or not is immaterial, they can and do have superb temperaments, in fact most of the working Malinois I have encountered have had FAR better temperaments than the show/pet material I have met.

Perhaps I have just met the wrong ones......

Probably Tohme. :) You'll also have met the RIGHT working bred ones (or that should perhaps be the right OWNERS) and not the nightmares, because of the situations you meet them in.

In my own breed , breeders of working line BSD consider them the true representative of their breed - and indeed temperamentally they may be ....BUT sadly it is these high drive hyperactive, stranger and dog aggressive dogs that end up on our breed rescue and are simply unrehomable , with the inevitable consequences for the dog....and a knock on effect for the reputation of the breed as a whole.

Not to mention that the Malis don't even LOOK like their breed anymore........ Size, body, eyes, colour, even the coat is different. Pet peeve of mine as I'm sure you know :) when our friendly, outgoing family pets (although I say family pets as in "Energizer Bunnies" -not exactly Goldens!) are still capable of doing a day's work with the police if trained right. I do think certainly in Malinois it's money that guides most of the working breeders.(Personally I only know of ONE where they seem to have a better reason for breeding.) The great majority of them. I myself get plenty of enquiries from police forces asking if I could supply them REGULARLY with dogs. I'd imagine for people where money is the be all and end all (and again we know some get £3000 a pup) it's easy to fall into the trap of breeding. Don't know how to solve that problem though. :(

With the introduction of breed specific legislation - just how responsible is it to continue to maintain the 'true ' nature of some breeds ?

Eek, those terrifying three words!! 

Is there any point in having some breeds without their 'true' nature?  Why are certain temperaments thought of as a 'problem'?

Most breeds wouldn't be the breeds they are without their true nature and temperament...

Mankind as a whole have adapted breeds of dogs for generations, for working purposes and also domestic/home life (or the average 'pet' home if you'd prefer to call it that).....

I couldn't imagine having my dogs with just the look and not the 'nature'

far better in my opinion, to find the right homes that are suitable for a breed and its characteristics, than to try and redesign the breed to suit less suitable owners!!

far better in my opinion, to find the right homes that are suitable for a breed and its characteristics, than to try and redesign the breed to suit less suitable owners!!

You've said in one sentence Sam what I was trying to say in two whole posts! :-D

"The problem with collies is that farm bred dogs are usually cheap"  and the same for Springer Spaniels, I very rarely see a show bred pet one, they are usually of the working type though I sometimes doubt whether the parents have had a sniff of work and the litter bred entirely for the Pet market.

My own breeds reason for being is big game tracking and holding at bay, primarily Elk (moose).  Of course this is only in the hunting season a month of the year at most, so not only must they be good hunters, which can offer challenges regarding off lead training, but good all rounders and easy to get along with the farm stock, children etc for the rest of the year, as mot of their time will be spent amusing the children, keeping watch over the home etc.

I would hate to see the hunting ability bred out of my breed as I do not think this ability impacts one iota on their suitability as a companion.  I have been to Scandinavia as have Friends and they have found that nearly all the dogs have the most super easy going adaptable characters, they can mix with their own kind and lots of people in the same way that working Labradors would be expected to when in shooting parties here, and can even be loaned to other hunters as they are not attached to their owners to the exclusion of others.

We have had quite a few Norwegian Imports over the years from very strong hunting lines whose parents have been hunting champions, yet they have possessed the sweetest and in many cases most tractable characters, especially the dogs from Loshund (loose hunted) lines, I assume that a measure of tractability is needed as well as the Independence to work away from the hunter.

In my own breed the working traits are alive and well in the breed even after many generations removed from the hunting field.

A dog owned by a couple whose family are Swedish recently successfully hunted their British born dog, after the local dogs had failed.

What was interesting is that both his grandfathers were American where hunting the breed is not practised.  You have to go back to one of his great grandfathers parents to find actual hunting dogs.

We in the breed often stress the tendency to selective hearing, but it is no different than many other breeds that are not Velcro dogs, like Jack Russells etc.

I have met one or two of my breed who really have no brain at all, but only perhaps two ever, and I am afraid I would hate for the breed generally to be like this even if it makes them easy pets.  The whole appeal for me is the intelligence and having to gain the dogs respect, no automatic adoration.

Unfortunately in say the guarding breeds the traits that make for a great guard are self confidence and obedience, but with that self confidence can come a tendency to dominance, and owners need to channel and control the traits.  To breed  a Doberman who will allow any human onto their property without question to steal the silver would be to fail in maintaining the standard.

I am not for breeding a generic pet dog that simply varies in shape and size, and coat type, people need to shoose a breed that suits their character and lifestyle.  there are pletny of breeds I woudl not get along living with.

Some traits perhaps could usefully be toned down, and in fact the ones bred with an excess of what is wanted was not what was originally intended. This article gives a perspective on that one when it comes to Labs bred for trialling as opposed to just a workaday shooting companion. "3. Too Much Dog" is particularly relevant, bear in mind this is in USA.

My collies work for a living, one is a kc reg collie and one is an isds reg collie there is a mile of difference in them, size and conformation and temperament ,isds reg one has a lovely nature and would work all day kc one can be a bit temperamental and wouldnt go on all day although he is a grand worker  he just lacks stamina. Its horses for courses, if you want one for working go for working bred line there are alot of people who show and work  , all the collies came from working stock originally same as most breeds but alot depends on how they are bred, i know alot of people with wonderful isds collies as pets .
I think we should have more information for prospective buyers and careful vetting by breeders, ( i realise that responsible breeders will do this  ) but why get rid of wonderful working traits, with the countryside livelihoods /pursuits going the way they are these "working dogs "will be extinct before long .When alls said and done this is what they were originally bred for and thats what makes them have their individual characters.

I don't think I would enjoy my breed if they lost that character that makes them good hunting dogs, it is part of what makes them what I admire.  The dumb surfer dude types that I have fortunately only ever met two of would not appeal at all, lights on and no-one at home.

My favourite (shh don't tell the others) is my naughtiest, most independent with a mind of her own and she could do the job with aplomb given the chance I am sure.

The hunter who I took her daughter to for mating told me that she would make a hunting dog.  I asked how she could tell, and was told it was evident from her bearing confidence with tractability and her showing scenting when in the run with her mate (we were in the forest).  Shame I will never have the opportunity to find out.

out of interest Barbara.....would elks be suitable for training to hunt wounded (shot or RTA) deer? We have just trained up one of our hounds (there was an article about him in Dog Collection this week) fot this purpose, but I do wonder whether you could get yours doing some work in the UK

Very much so and have been used for this in the past and quite recently too.

In Scandinavia there are two methods of hunting, Loose and on harness.  The harnessed methods=d would probably be more appropriate for UK because of busy roads, unless you right in the wilds.

Going back about 8 or 10 years a gamekeeper bought a pup sired by a US import out of a Norwegian Imported bitch for deer stalking and sent in articles on how well he was doing for our club magazine.

This dog was used loose.

In the past members of the breed have been used for Mountain rescue too.

Also Historically they have been found when out with a hunt pack to be truer on the scent than the hounds and when the pack were moved onto the Elks line the elk had been right.

some have a feel for bird hunting as not all dislike water some make good water fowlers.  To be honest they are not unlike HPR breeds in their hunting methods, except of course large game is not easy to retrieve

My Tula would not retrieve in the normal course of events, but would regularly bring me live and dead birds and rodents when on walks, she could see the point of that :D  My Myka (11 month dtr of Finnish dual ch)found a Tennis ball yesterday and carried it a way.  She then put it down and it rolled down someones drive, so Mum retrieved it, so she promptly put it down to toll down the driveway again, so I left it

It is sad that in the UK they are not given much to do, apart from the odd dog competing in Obedience and Agility.

In the USA a lot of people compete in canine events other than showing,a s with the US system where dogs get made up young gives people something to do after the dogs get their title as few are good enough to special (go for BOB and Group wins).  Her in the UK with it taking so long if at all to get a dogs title people haven't the time to concentrate on more than one thing with their dogs.  With all our canine activities being so large they are divorced one from the other so little cross over between them.

I think that many pet owners want a dog that looks like a Formula 1 car and that behaves like a Robin Reliant.

Many people buy dogs on looks rather than what they were bred for or what they WANT them for.

I have two breeds both of which have been IMHO virtually changed due to the pet and/or show market.

Fortunately both of my individuals were purchased from working lines and fulfil their function.

Unfortunately many breeds have now developed two lines, one for pet and one for working as neither community would be suited to an individual from the other.

Same thing happens in horses, people want to ride animals that look like Desert ORchid but have all the get up and go of Hercules.

It is like my friend who runs are dog training class says, most pet owners want a really dumb dog.

Or as I say, a mobile pyjama case! :D

LOL Tohme, my breed were bred as lapdogs so that's more or less what I've got! But I would just say they are perfectly capable of long walks as well. :-)

Excellent post Tohme, you're so right :)

I have to admit to being guilty of that too, when I bought the school horse I'd been riding for years I took ages to get him superfit - then decided I liked him better beforehand :D

I have to say when breeds are split it's generally the working types I like - working sheepdogs (which are what I always thought of as border collies), working springers, working cockers.... just a sucker for punishment! :D And I like intelligent - can't bear thick. :D

Writing this without having read the rest of the thread yet. It's difficult - because in some ways it might be better for the dogs if they were 'easier' for the average pet home - less likely to be rehomed for being too energetic or for temperament reasons (but then if the breeder places correctly they shouldn't be anyway). I for one would be very sad to see working and\or dual purpose ability go. Like in my GSP - what causes him to hunt is part of him, what makes him who he is, and if you want one you have to manage that IMO. And I love the moments when you see the instincts come out - like when my granny sent me a toy capercaillie from the RSPB, which has an authentic call in a box inside - when I pressed it both dogs were instantly in front of me and alert - in a way they wouldn't be for a non game bird sound.

And what about the people that still want\ need the working dogs. If there were so few the gene pool would be very small and that would cause problems with risks of hereditary disease being bred in.