Can I ask for your experiences/opinions on this?  Whenever I have had a bitch needing a section, I have always taken her back for spaying after her litter has left home.  I recently visited a small show kennel, and a bitch had been given a Caesarian the previous day.  I was surprised to be told that she was spayed at the same time.  For some reason, I believed that spaying would dry up a bitches milk very quickly.  I am really interested to hear from anyone that has had both done at the same time.  Thanks.

Never had it done with a bitch, but have with queens several times. Spaying doesn't dry the milk up unless she is ill and loses it for that reason. I always reckon it's best to just have to go under anaesthetic and have surgery once rather than twice.

Spayed my girl straight after her C section as was planning to spy her after that litter anyway and didn't wnat her opened up twice in quick succession.  No trouble with the milk at all. 

My bitch was done at the same time 

bitches milk can dry up after a c section as this happened to a friend of mine she didnt realise the bitches milk had dried up and unfortunately the pups died

although if this happens when spaying i dont know

I would hazard a guess there may have been another reason for the bitches milk drying up.

I have experience of only two C sections one my own bitch where she was spayed and previous to this a bitch I whelped for a friend.  In both cases milk was slow to come in sure to the surgery and possibly the anaesthetic, so pups had to be put on more often to get things going (weak ones may need temporary topping up) and they lost some weight and regained it slowly, but soon made this up.  I have found other breeders have had the same experience after a C section a slight delay in things getting going.

The ovaries and uterus are nothing to do with the production of milk, which is governed by hormones produced from the pituitary gland if memory serves me right.

I would hazard a guess there may have been another reason for the bitches milk drying up.


I think so to, something the section is done before the milk is there and causes a delay rather than no milk, people jump too quickly to hand rear I often think, we read it so often on here and keep advising to keep putting the pups on..

If they keep at the bitch the milk would in most cases come. Sometimes it can take 24 hours.

You may all remember my cat who gave birth to kittens in July, one was dead and retained and she developed bad pyo, almost died, had to be spayed, only two kittens survived and one was the first example of his breed in that colour. She did lose her milk as she was so unwell, but it DID come back as the kittens kept suckling at her teats even though I bottlefed them, the stimulation did it, and after 14 days I was able to stop bottlefeeding them. They are now the biggest kittens I've ever had. :)

im not sure but i think the c section was done after a couple of pups were born the last one was delivered by c section as it was stuck but the milk was flowing b4 the operation

My friends bitch just had to have a c section & the vet discovered that her uterus had ruptured so she had to be spayed & she's has no problem feeding her babies

If the milk was there and then wasn't after c-section then something very wrong.

I always wonder how a bitch drying up could be missed. You think the pups would be screaming in hungar , if to the extend they died.

Were these puppies born in the house?  

yes but problem being she had 3 other litters of pups aswell and shes a very disorganised person.

What sort of responsible breeder has 3 litters of pups at once?  I have had two litters together due to extenuating circumstances, but would never choose to do so again, and friends who have had two litters close together say the same.

What sort of responsible breeder has 3 litters of pups at once?

Barbara you read that wrong , she had 3 OTHER litters meaning 4 :rolleyes:

Four litters at once? If I said what I really think I'd be banned.

it was only meant to be 3 litters one her dog got over the bitch and she didnt know she only had 1 pup. one there were 5 pups another there was 9 pups but the last litter all 3 died so she does only have 3 not 4

I was scared to say that I found it hard to believe a good breeder could miss puppies dying through starvation BUT I am not now.

That is very very sad.  Disorganised is not the word. :rolleyes:   Hayley you just rolled that off like you were saying she lost 3 pair of socks from having an untidy room.. not that puppies died from starvation..

dont start having ago again i know its bad im not saying thats its alright but what she does with her dogs has nothing to do with me

Keep this thread on topic please - what this breeder does or does not do has absolutely nothing to do with this thread

Thanks

One of my dogs was out of a bitch who had a caesarian and was spayed at the same time. She had no problems producing milk, but she was otherwise well. :)

My old Vet always used to delay speying at the same time as a C section because she was concerned about the blood loss and trauma.  Have only had to have 2 C sections, but the last one in October I agreed to have Mabel speyed at the same time, as this was her final litter anyway.  However, she had a massive blood loss in surgery and they struggled  with her, temp drop, lots of complications.  She did come round OK, and had a little (but not much) milk.  Took her back for an Oxytocin shot next day to make milk flow, which it did, a bit, so bottle supplemented pups anyway.  However, day after she was very ill indeed, high temperature, listless, not eating.  We had 2 weeks of anitbiotics and metacam (so not feeding pups anyway).  Of course, all these complications could be just because of the C section not the spey, but I woudl certianly hesitate to have them both done together again.
bye
Gwen

Our Purdey was spayed, 4 days after whelping, when we discovered that she still had 3 retained pups (obviously dead :( )  - and things were touch and go with her for 24 hours.  I would add that the vet had checked her and been happy with her within the first 24 hours it was when she produced a dead whelp 4 days later we realised we had problems.     She had 10 live pups, which we split into two "packs" - I kept 5 for hand-rearing, ny now-DiL took the other 5.   When Purdey came back from the vets, I had her, very sleepy, next to "my pack".   As I fed them, she became more and more anxious about them, so I let her clean them up.  After 48 hours, she was feeding those 5, and two days later we re-introduced the others to her - with absolutely no ill-effects.

Margot

Last year I had a bitch spayed at the same time as a section and everything went fine.

A number of years ago I had a bitch who had a section and was spayed once her pups were about 10 weeks old, she was sent home and the next morning as I got her out of bed the blood just started pouring out of her, out of the vulva and the scar. Straight to the vet but I nearly lost her due to the amount of blood lost. it turned out their had been problems during the spay with blood and the vet didn't tell me. As is to be expected that is the last time we went to that vet.

Many thanks to all of you for opinions and experiences.  While I hope not to have another bitch needing surgery, I think I would probably go for a spay at the same time if it happened again.  It is great to be able to get others experiences on here.  Much appreciated.

I have had a bitch C-sectioned and spayed at same time ,no problems with milk but her coat changed due to her hormones . I personly would wat to spay if it happened again with any of my other girls.

Am I reading this right?  Once a bitch has had a c-section she shouldnt have another litter of puppies again!!!!  If that is the case then I know more than one breeder who will let their bitches have litters after delivering by c-section.

Spettadog

No that is not right, it is up to the breeder and why the bitch had to have a section. My bitch had a section and was later spayed that was how I felt at the time and did not believe in breeding from a bitch after a section however I would perhaps do it in the future, the pup from my bitch was gorgeous and well put together and  wish I had bred her again.

I think that perhaps my reasons for spaying may have been misinterpreted a little.  I have had two girls with total inertia, and I had them spayed for purely ethical reasons.  Since there is a strong possibility that inertia is genetic, I don't think it would be responsible of me to breed from either of these girls again.  They have both been spayed, and are still with me, and part of the gang, but no chance of any unwanted pregnancies!  All girl pups went to pet homes, with an agreement that they would be spayed, and I found that people were quite happy to sign a contract to that effect.  I have however, experienced one other C-section (only in a larger breed.)  I had a girl self whelp 5 beautiful puppies, they suckled immediately, but Mum was still having very strong contractions.  It's always at night isn't it?  I phoned the out of hours vet, met her at the veterinary hospital, and she could feel "something".  A scan revealed a pup high under the ribcage.  The vet couldn't even see a head!  The C-section that followed, removed one dead pup, with it's head stuck under the ribcage, vet described it as bent backwards.  No deformity, or outward sign of a problem.  I asked to see the pup, and it looked like a normal pup.  I was pleased to see that they had put my girl back with her pups (I had taken them in a heated box) and she was suckling them.  At my bitches check up I was told that I had been really unfortunate, as 98% of sections are due to large pups, rather than malpresentations.  The vet told me that he would be entirely happy about the bitch having another litter.  As it happens, I do intend to mate her in March 2008.  But my decision was based on the knowledge that this bitch had been a very easy whelper, and reared the pups with devotion.  No reason why she can't self whelp again.  So, while I have always disgreed with folk that will let a bitch have 2 or 3 sections, I think we all have to make the decision that sits well with our own consciences.  I also own bitches that have been spayed without ever having had a litter. 

Hi Dogcrazy

But you would have the pup to breed from wouldnt you?  She might not have had such a beautiful litter the second time round.  Nature does funny things!!!!! 

We all wish we had done things differently in areas of our lives but at least you had her beautiful daughter as a result!!!!

Kind regards
Spettadog

Hi

I was very lucky I had 1 bitch and 3 dogs. I kept a dog who I had more or less promised to a show home before he was born. They would have been new to showing and right from the start there was something special and he never left. unfortunately due to an accident he ended up with a hip score of 17:4. The bitch was awful and I let her go, thank goodness they returned her at 2 yrs old and I had a litter with this gorgeous bitch who just got better and better as she matured.
So luck was on my side, she has just retired after 2 lovely litters. Due to illness her daughter is now in scotland with another breeder and winning well in the ring and her grand daughter is also in a show home winning well, so I can get the line back in time.

Hi again

It just goes to show that some dogs do get better with age doesnt it?  I wish you all the best and hope you get your line back soon.

Kind regards
Spettadog

>Am I reading this right?  Once a bitch has had a c-section she shouldnt have another litter of puppies again!!!!

If that were the case i think breeds like Bulldogs would die out quickly....

Of course KTee you are right, I didnt think down those lines!!!  Silly me!!! However, playing devil's a dvocate here.  If you did have to spey your bitch following a c-section, it might make the breeders of dogs that have features which are so exagerated they can't whelp naturally, actually start to breed for the health of the dog!!!

Kind regards
Spettadog

>it might make the breeders of dogs that have features which are so exagerated they can't whelp naturally, actually start to breed for the health of the dog!!!

Amen to that!!

I agree if every bitch were spayed after a C section natural whelping traits would figure more highly in selection of breeding stock.  I dso think though that in these breeds elective sections are doen because of the breed without even attempting a natural whelping.

As a VN I know that a lot of the vets where I work dont like doing the spay at the same time as a c-section because of the fragile state of the uterus and the possibilty of bleeding from the tying off of the stumps etc. So though it is not really reccomended - it can still be done without having an effect on the Bitches milk.