Hi to you all,i have just joined,i have just had my westies blood test back,all he is allowed to eat is Beef,Duck,Potatoe,Rice,White Fish,every other meat he has to stay off to stop him smelling of a yeast infection an biting his skin.Well he wont eat rice at all.We need help finding to find out if he is ok to live on beef potatoes and duck alone,oh he can eat root veg,just seems to me a sad diet for him.nooooooooooooo more treats!

Seems a fair variety of meat sources and two carbs, could be a lot worse.

Well you have all really helped me ,i had no idea all the type of food i can buy him,the food he has an allergy to Pork,Lamb Wheat,Chicken,Turkey,Soya Bean,Corn,Oats,Cows Milk,All Grasses,weed,bushes.The vet said in other words he needs to be kept in a box with a dish of water.Bless him he is only 4,but i am a carer so he is going to be looked after.I got him 2yrs ago from a rescue centre,he had sore skin so i think i took pity on him.I do agree with anyone about the Breed,over breading is the cause so i have been told.I had Bobbys dodos chopped,it is soooooooooooo sad to watch him sratching till he bleeds. Now with all your help i wont have to see him go through it again.Chris x

His intolorance of oats is unfortunately going to count the Burns foods out leaving you with the choice of Nature diet or James Wellbeloved

Not sure what the ingredients of the fish version of Arden GRange is, but another good food if the ingredient list is OK.

Here you are.  Arden Grange Adult Salmon & Rice.

The site says That salmon is one of the foods low in allergy Quote: Low antigenicity - low down on the list of potential triggers of food allergies and therefore unlikely to trigger an adverse food reaction), so worth checking with your vet to see if this fish is OK.

Ingredients

Fresh Salmon (min 26%), Whole Grain Rice (min 26%), Whole Grain Maize, Chicken Fat*, Chicken Meal*, Beet Pulp, Dried Brewers Yeast, Egg Powder, Fish Meal*, Linseed, Fish Oil*, Minerals, Vitamins, Nucleotides, Prebiotic FOS, Prebiotic MOS, Cranberry Extract, Chondroitin Sulphate, Glucosamine Sulphate, MSM, Yucca Extract. * Preserved with mixed tocopherols and rosemary extract.

Typical Analysis

Protein 25%, Oil 15%, Fibre 2.5%, Ash 7%, Moisture 8%, Omega6 3.89%, Omega3 0.95%, Vitamin A 20000 IU/kg, Vitamin D3 1500 IU/kg, Vitamin E 135 IU/kg, Calcium 1.2%, Phosphorous P 0.75%, Copper 20 mg/kg (as Cupric Sulphate).

I recommended this food to someone whose dog had a very dry coat and it was lovely within a few months.

I think most of the AG range has chicken in it.

Yep chicken fat in that one, as well as brewers yeast which dogs that get yeast infections can't tolerate and maize which some dogs react to.

I'm not sure how correct this is (if at all!) but I remember reading somewhere that even with an allergy to chicken, the dog should be ok with the fat as it's the protein they react to. The same article said that it's the same thing as with a peanut allergy in humans - the allergy is to the protein of the nut so people with a peanut allergy should be ok with peanut oil (again not sure if that is correct).

Chris please do not give him burns then as Burns has Oats in.

My dog can only eat one meat protein and that is Fish, potatoes, rice and Oats; I was horrified when told he was very ill constantly itching, skin lesions, stained coat, itchy ears, and constant diarrhoea and he was only a baby :(

:) But now he has a beautiful white coat his skin is perfect and only has an odd itch just like we all do be it dog or human.  You can turn his health around, it may take some time but it can be done :)

>finding to find out if he is ok to live on beef potatoes and duck alone,

Well it depends if he's also getting the >raw< bones from these meats aswell,otherwise you'll need to supplement with calcium,and probably a multi vitamin.I take it the vet went over all the nutrients etc with you? :)

If you can feed beef then hopefully you'll be able to feed tripe,Most dogs adore the stuff What about Naturediet,have you looked into that? They have a fish and a sensitive version,not sure if they contain any forbidden ingredients though.

Poor baby,you sure have your work cut out for you.How old is he? Have you looked into seeing a homeopathic vet,they may be able to help and perhaps eventually get him onto a more normal diet.Although i'm not at all sure how food allergies work...

Katie Re: homeopathic vet and allergies, I hope this helps.
I have been told by the homeopathic vet that we go to see that you can not make allergies disappear that you can only strengthen the immune system so that the allergic reaction is lesser. This I have found to be the truth.

There are plenty of foods that will fit him, just make sure to read the ingredients thoroughly, especially if you want to feed him dry food.   JWB does a duck food (they also have wet sachets of food now, but I am not sure of the varieties) and a fish one, there are any number of foods with fish as the protein source.  However, if he really can only eat white fish (? must it really be white???) you need to stay away from fish like salmon.  Again, inspect the ingredients with a microscope because oftentimes the protein source promoted on the front of the package is only one of many actually included.

Naturediet does a fish and rice food. 

I would be looking at James Wellbeloved as they do both a duck and rice food and an Ocean white fish and rice food, naturally preserved.

I was going to suggest Salmon and potato wafcol. Never used it but heard a few on here liking it. Was Salmon a no no?? . but on thinking about it and being honest I would forget the adding of supplements etc and would forget a complete kibble diet as you just don't get the whole ingredients even if you think you do..

until you get this little lad under control I personally would suggest 2 foods

Natures Menu  Tripe, with Veg and rice it is a complete meal and can be served raw or cooked. You can see it here with the full ingredients.  http://www.naturesmenu.co.uk/products/frozen/tripe/

Please note avoid the beef ones etc as it still contains chicken. It is only the Tripe one that is just beef tripe.

Second to this I would put him on Butchers tripe that is avalible anywhere .. I have seem superb results with this for skin problems. It is maybe not the working dog choice for sure but the main priority for me would be to settle this guys skin.

They don't need treats praise is more than enough for this wee chap. Treats are half the problem is sensitive dogs.

You could use pieces of apple or carrot for treats.

PS JWB seems to very unpopular with the sensitive skin dog owners I know.  As I say I would avoid all kibble diets just now.

Obviously your talking from breed experience Blue :) but on a personal note the Ocean White Fish and Rice diet from JWB has proved very benificial for my parents Cocker with skin trouble.

Yes Sorry Gillian should have said that.

Hi and welcome :) My dog (Westie) can only eat one meat protein it can be a little difficult trying to find a commercial food when high on allergies but I'll try to help you so that you can be less stressed.

Most dogs go nuts and eat every morsel off naturediet, it does have a small amount of rice and potatoes mind you but the amount in is so small that even the fussiest dog hardly turns this food down.

Naturediet Fish, Rice, Potatoes (wet food):
www.naturediet.net
INGREDIENTS:
Ocean fish Min 60%, Brown Rice Min 20%, Potato Min 8%, Natural Ground Bone, Kelp, Vitamins & Minerals

Wafcol (kibble) can get from pets at home (vets sometimes recommend this).
www.wafcol.co.uk
Salmon & Potato
INGREDIENTS:
Salmon 25% potato 20% potato starch, lupin, linseed, rapeseed oil, seaweed meal, vitamins and minerals.

Burns (kibble) Burns will send you a weeks worth of sample packets to try first.
www.burns-pet-nutrition.co.uk/dog_food.htm

Fish and brown rice
INGREDIENTS:
Contains: Brown Rice (min 63%), Fish (min18%), Oats, Peas, Fish Oil, Sunflower Oil, Seaweed, Minerals and Vitamins

Venison and brown rice
INGREDIENTS:
Contains: Brown Rice (min 50%), Venison (min 27%), Oats, Peas, Sunflower Oil, Seaweed, Minerals and Vitamins

Duck and brown rice
INGREDIENTS:
Contains: Brown Rice (min 65%), Duck meat meal (min 20%), Oats, Peas, Duck fat, Sunflower Oil, Seaweed, Minerals and Vitamins

Maybe consider raw feeding, there are many helpful people on this website who have more wealth of knowledge than I have on raw feeding. so I will leave telling you about raw feeding for more experience members to tell you.

Good luck :)

For treats
Burns
www.burns-pet-nutrition.co.uk
Ocean bites (dried fish skins)

Burns Training Treats
100% fish fillet.

Burns Venison Ears
Burns Venison Hearts

Fish 4 dogs (you can get from pets at home now)
www.fish4dogs.com

Sea Jerky
100% Fish Skin

Sea Jerky - Chunky Cubes
100% Fish Skin (brilliant for cleaning teeth)

Mixed Fish Roll
100% Fish Skin

Sea Jerky Fish Fingers
100% Fish Skin

Sea Jerky - Redfish Rolls
100% Fish Skin

Sea Biscuit Tiddlers
95% Cod and 5% rice - Gluten Free

Sea Biscuit Fish Fingers
95% Cod and 5% rice - Gluten Free

Sea Biscuits - Square
95% Cod and 5% rice - Gluten Free

James Wellbeloved (MiniJacks)
www.wellbeloved.com
Fresh Fish
Ingredients: Rice, fresh white fish, tomato, potato, olive oil, potato protein, fish oil, mixed herbs, D, L- methionine, lysine hydrochloride.
Contains: Minimum 55% Rice, min 14% fish, min 10% tomato.

Fresh Duck
Ingredients: Rice, fresh duck, duck fat, tomato, potato, potato protein, poultry protein, mixed herbs.
Contains: Minimum 55% rice, minimum 20% duck, minimum 10% tomato.

You can use fruit and vegetables as treats as well also you can make treats there is many recipes on this website you can change to suit your dogs diet.

Katt,

Do you use the Burns with your dog.

I think it is far far too high in Carbs and so little oil that this in itself would make a dog itch.      It is another one I have found quite unpopular.
The Ocean bites are very good though. :-)

Blue yes I have tried Burns and the food did not work for my dog, but I know of many that do use Burns and my friends have found it to be a good food for their dogs.

I prefer naturediet and have found a lot of westies (5 that I know off) who have food intolerance to do brilliant on the food.

That is  why I was going to advise against it. I think it is just a bag of carbs completely unsuitable IMHO.

:) It is very difficult to find a food that will work for food intolerant dogs it's all trial and error sometimes, what suits one animal may not suit another, as I said before some dogs seem to do fine on the food others do not. Can drive u round the bend sometimes but you got to try and hope for the best.

I should also add when you first change over the food it is best to try to only feed the food for more than six weeks, if you find this difficult then only give a treat that is similar to what is in the food your feeding.

I'll do an example to make it easier to understand:
Say you start feeding naturediet fish, rice and potatoes then only give say Burns training treat, Ocean bites, fish4dogs Sea Jerky - Chunky Cubes, sea jerky or the mixed fish rolls.

If you find all is well then you can start adding other foods slowly into the diet. It is a slow process but if you do this you will see much improvement. oh and I should warn you that all that fish in diet will make the coat grow faster so you will have to groom a lot more but small price to pay if your dog is returned to health. 

Having a dog myself who is high on allergies there is a lot of information you need to absorb, I hope your vet sits you down and explains all for you as well.
Good luck.

P.s Sorry for my numerous posts, you must be thinking crazy woman LOL.

you must be thinking crazy woman

No just thinking how sad it is that a breed of dog has become so il-equiped to lead a normal doggie life.... they cant eat meat for goodness sake. We humans have a lot to answer for.:rolleyes:

that a breed of dog has become so il-equiped to lead a normal doggie life Confused about this

I have the same breed and meat is 75% of their diet..

Dont you know of any westies with skin problems then?

% wise Negligible and never had any in my house.

The only senstive dog in my house is actually my boxer :-)

never had any in my house.
You are lucky.
Googleing WHW-skin problems shows quite another picture I'm afraid. I've had a lot of contact with all sorts of breeds over the years and I have to say WHWT has always been synonymous with itchy dog, in fact I know some.

Having said that ,I do know how annoying generalisations are when quoted at one.... I was walking some of my little breed in the local open space and a loud man called out to me " they've all got bad hearts they 'ave, ought not to be sold" charming I thought, especially since the dogs in questions clear  heart certificates were neatly tucked up in their file at home. But he did have a point; many of them do and I would be fooling myself if I didn't accept that and try accept that many other peoples dogs suffer.

Of course it is a breed that is hugely popular among puppy farmers and they don't care if they are producing dogs with skin problems, the same as the CKCS with atrocious hearts, responsible breeders are or have addressed the issues the others (sadly the majority) have not bothered.

As usual B an erudite  and considered response, thank you.

I agree Brainless.
I can only speak for myself, I found out you cannot trust some of the so called well respected breeders as some just do not care for the animals and will just breed different breeds for monetary gain yet keep one breed as a so called prized specimen. As long as those type of breeders and puppy farmers are allowed to do what the please we will get ill dogs sad to say :(

This website has a wealth of knowledge, I very much appreciate all the knowledge that has been shared here as it has help me make my dogs life a healthier one, I hope the information on this website helps Chris's dog to feel much better as well.

To be honest if that was all they were occasionally tarred with it would suit me. They don't seem to fall foul of all the other major issues in so many other breeds.   I am not saying that because no testing is required they are free from problems but the variety of problems are so small the breed doesn't actually have recommended or compulsary health tests.   There are some breeders who will test for things because they like to do so for example I eye tested my dog as I had used him at stud a few times.  My sister was getting her dog tested ( a breed that requires it) so I got mine done for the heck of it really.

I think you will find food is a bigger issue today that the breed. Well that and apart from the back yard breeders and puppy farmers breeding all these fluffy puppies.

You are lucky.


PS forgot to ask why I am lucky :-)

I bet it is a lot less that 1% with skin issues.  Selective breeding from healthy lines isn't luck I don't personally think ;-)

Tooolz i'm afraid i'm with you on this one :( I know more westies with skin and health problems then i do 100% healthy specimens.. I've got used to seeing brown/stained feet and bums on them!

As for the Burns 63% rice and 18-27% meat,that is just outrageous Mr B must be making a fortune! How any dog can live healthily LONGTERM on a diet like this,not to mention with such low fat and protein just boggles me

You must know mostly poorly bred ones. Unfortunatley when you look at how many are bred and how many actually come from Good breeders this is where the problem lies.    My vet tells me over and over again he has about 6 westies that come in for skin allergies but would recommend them over 75% of other breeds. That is the problem with health issues you always hear about the poorly ones.

I have them from all differently lines from all around the UK. Not ever had itchy dogs ..  I personally trim over a 4 month period about 30 dogs all westies. 2 of the 30 have had allergy issues but both controlled very easily with food control.  One is alergic to flea bites no problem since it was frontlined every 3 months.  I think most things can be sorted out with these type of things.

There are at least another 2 members of CDs that also have westies both a lot lot lot longer than I and I know both have never had skin issues. 

I think there is actually more westies unregistered than registered sadly so I reckon there are approx 15K bred a year. Honestly.    There can't be that many issues or their popularity wouldn't stay that high.

PS Ktee Brown stained feet doesn't always indicate health issues I can guarantee you that 100% their coats are very harsh ( well decent ones)  so it makes the hair on the feet porous,   I know as I am alway keeping my clean for shows. Concrete is the worse offender.

Also Ktee when you say Skin AND health problems can you expand?

You are a food orientated person.. SO many people recommend this rubbish for westies or any white coated breed would you not scratch if you ate this???     

One of our members who also has an interest in the breed will tell you any westies she has been in contact with where allergies was an issue and change of food and some small changes ie washing powder etc all had a huge impact on the recovery..

I had my boxer on Nutro recently ( stupidity )  as she has tummy troubles,  a week after being on the nutro she had dry skin and was scratching a little.  I put her onto Origen when it finally arrived and she is fine again.. IS This the BREED to blame or the food???

That is the problem with health issues you always hear about the poorly ones.

I agree but the OP has a poorly one and I am sympathising with her little dog and the many others in the same boat.

PS forgot to ask why I am lucky

I think you are lucky in having healthy dogs just like me( at the moment). Some say you make your own luck and you and I probably fall into that scenario.
I did a small straw poll last night when speaking to my two best mates, one vet nurse and one dog groomer and I'm afraid the consensus was that Chris's dog was the norm not the exception.
Skin problems may not be life threatening ( in an otherwise healthy dog) but can give dog and owner years of misery and expense, vets get rich on westie skin. Your vet may be seeing an unrepresentitive sample because of your healthy dogs. I hope that this can be the case in the future for all vets.

IS This the BREED to blame or the food???

Both I would say.Boxers often have bad guts but just because mine don't I would be naive to say that it's not a common problem in my breed.

I did a small straw poll last night when speaking to my two best mates, one vet nurse and one dog groomer and I'm afraid the consensus was that Chris's dog was the norm not the exception.

This is another generalisation really :-) the norm infact quite a disgraceful generalisation to say, I honestly think. Why would someone take a dog to the vet if it didn't have any problems other than for say vaccines??? so the nurse is going to see more with issues than not because the biggest % don't go to see her ;-) why would they?   and I suppose you grooming freind is one like so many who clip the pet westies she gets?  Come on hardly a balanced survey.  ;-)

Off the top of my head, one of my dogs is 4 years old has been to my vets once for his vaccines.  The vet nurse will have seen 10% of the dogs I have owned and that is only because she draws the blood for premate. That is the only reason she sees them. Not even for their vaccines.  Her opinion would hardly be balanced.

The breed clubs worldwide have recently done an extensive and published survey/study and I can assure you it is not the norm.

The public buying I am afraid speaks for itself.  I am active in the breed in various ways other than just showing and have many freinds that have been in the breed for years and years and have no problem whatsoever.

vets get rich on westie skin.   What is westie skin?  Interested to know?

Your vet may be seeing an unrepresentitive sample because of your healthy dogs. I hope that this can be the case in the future for all vets.

Another generalisation I think :-)  he doesnt see most of mine so he can't count them :-D :-D :-D   :rolleyes:  I live in Scotland and westies are everywhere.  My freind runs a groomng business with 2 people working for her , she could survive on westies alone in this area. I can assure you my vet sees MORE that his fair share of representation of the breed.  They are probably the largest practice in my large county. With 4 branches. 

It is life you always hear about the unhealthy dog in any breed because people look for help. You don't hear about the 8 dogs in my house with perfect skin and being honest they can eat anything BUT  I choose to feed them what I believe to be correctly. 

Just putting in into context, In the years I have been a member of CD's the people who have came seeking advise on westie problem skin is less than the amount of dogs I own so how can it be the norm????????

Defensive perhaps but I can't bare incorrect sweeping generalisations. :-)

Defensive perhaps but I can't bare incorrect sweeping generalisations

And on that note Blue I will bow out of this thread and indeed CD forum.

I've just reminded myself that this board's purpose is to offer help and perhaps empathy to the poster..It's easy to decend into point scoring and ego stoking whilst some innocent person is waiting for a helpful answer.I've seen posters ask a question then take no further part whilst the thread turns into a brawl. 
I have only been on Champdogs forum for a short time but long enough to observe that many threads veere off into soapbox opportunities. In fact I have found myself seduced into participating, goaded into declaring why I dared to express an opinion.
The anonymity this board offers seems to give an outlet for some who feel that their knowledge is somehow more worthy than anyones elses.
If you can't be open to re-examining fixed ideas then good luck.

"Make your words sweet and mild, you never know when you may be called upon to eat them"

ps Brainless, Thank you for the kind and measured way you have replyed to me and others during my visits to this forum.

I have at no time been personal to you and my reply certainly wasn't unkind. The only personal reply I see in the thread is this one.

You made a generalisation about a breed regardless whether it is mine and I defended it.   You then went on to continue with another generalisation. Am I wrong to defend it. ?????

I certainly did no such point scoring excerise. I think your 3 person survey claiming to be the concensious perhaps could have been the gauntlet ;-)  For me it was,  because of that I felt the need to reply a second time to correct the generalisation for the readers.

I certainly never use CDs as an outlet, I rarely every talk about my breed at all. Read my posts.  I have my own ideas about food etc but dont get into the real debates. 

I am very open minded and certainly do not have tunnel vision on my own breed, I am study genetics including genetic diseases just now.  

I certainly did no such point scoring excerise........I certainly never use CDs as an outlet

It's not all about you Blue,

Bye

I am really genuinely sorry you feel this way Tooolz. This forum needs knowledgeble people.

I agree but the OP has a poorly one and I am sympathising with her little dog and the many others in the same boat.

I completely sympathise with the OP hence the reason I have offered some advice.  She seems to be on the right track with her dog.  It guts me to hear problems.


On another note one of the problems in the past I have encounter and I know others have is often people want immediate fixes ( not the case with the poster)  but cannot connect poor diet, lack of flea protection etc to some of the issues. 

One person brought a dog that was bright pink to me, I recommended 3 things, 1 was a diet change and 2 enviromental ones, IE no bio etc  , the beautiful white re-growth on this dog 3 months later was startling.

I am the groomer Tooolz was referring to and no, I'm not the sort of groomer that clips off everything that walks through the door!! I get plenty of handstrip westies. They are a very popular breed but I have seen a steady decline in numbers (in this area) throughout my 15 years of grooming. Unfortunately I can indeed count on one hand the number of westies that have no skin problems. Yes other breeds have skin trouble too but westies do seem to suffer the most.

I have to say what an absolute terrible shame it is to lose Tooolz from the board. I am one of the few who actually knows who she is and knows her personally. Her advice and knowledge of dogs is absolutely outstanding. I wish I could convince her to stay! For the board to lose someone of her experience, knowledge and calibre is a crying shame. :( :(

I am the groomer Tooolz was referring to and no, I'm not the sort of groomer that clips off everything that walks through the door!! I get plenty of handstrip westies.

Excellent I am really pleased to hear. So many just zip the poor things off forgetting they are a double coat breed.

They are a very popular breed but I have seen a steady decline in numbers (in this area) throughout my 15 years of grooming. Unfortunately I can indeed count on one hand the number of westies that have no skin problems. Yes other breeds have skin trouble too but westies do seem to suffer the most. 

Interesting that only a handful are Ok in your area and also a decline. I wonder if there is possibly some envirnomental factor, are the westies that you particularly groom coming from the same area etc? 

I have to say what an absolute terrible shame it is to lose Tooolz from the board. I am one of the few who actually knows who she is and knows her personally. Her advice and knowledge of dogs is absolutely outstanding. I wish I could convince her to stay! For the board to lose someone of her experience, knowledge and calibre is a crying shame.  

I have said the same to her myself on and off the forum. This is up to Tooolz though. I told her deep breath, chin up and shoulders back.  :-)   I remember when I first was a member here I used be gobsmacked at some of the debates, I had a couple ding dongs with one poster in particular but I think it is why champdogs is a successful forum.   There is no frilly knickers you get what people believe is to the best of their knowledge the truth and because it is such a mix of people I think it allowa a bit more openess.

I am sure Tooolz will be back, after a week here it is addictive :-)