I would expect someone who shows, and breeds their dogs responsibly to have a working knowledge of 'terms' etc, and also the litter registration papers and not need to ask what 'endorse' means.

I was replying to Hayley, re champdogs not show dogs you can't get champions without some kind of showing, be that conformation, agility, field trials, obedience etc.

i would also like to add why on earth does everyone on here minus a few people feel that they all have the right to jump on the band wagon and have a go at me all the time

No-one is having a go at you, just more people disagree with the views you are putting forward than agree with you.  I don't know you or most anyone else on the board from Adam, but simply reply to the posts.

If I feel that your views unchallenged may encourage someone reading the posts to breed irresponsibly, or excuse such breeding, or let a potential puppy buyer think the breeder they have contacted is good when they are not, then I will answer the posts.

I assume the others who do so have similar reasons for doing so.

Some comments are likely to have a thread locked, and your last one is one of them :( so please be careful.

You do come across as being anti show, you obviously have your reasons for that, especially as you fail to rate the Crufts BIS judge, or any of the others that have made the dogs up to get there. of course, what you see and what you like is purely your opinion.

Perhaps it would be interesting to find out why you think it is not necessary to show your dog or have it assessed as being a good worker, if the intention is to breed? Perhaps you are yourself a judge of a/more than one breed, I don't know. maybe something has happened in your past on the show circut. I see showing as being a wonderful chance to have your dog assessed by experts, not as a elitist thing at all.

People here may talk a lot about showing, its the way they know their dogs are reaching the goals they breed for. Its also a good social event, and a chance to view possible future lines for your own dogs. To know that the breed standard is being acheived, or as near as is possible.

AND perhaps if you wish to reply you cease the silly PM messages, they serve no purpose :)

when i first came on to this site i thought it would be about pedigrees and people discussing champion dogs id hope to get info from this site to help me go further back in my pups pedigree i got a couple of names from some one that was extremely helpful but ive realised that all this aite is about is peoples opinions on how they think things should be done

It's a shame you should feel this way, because there are some damn good experienced people here who, if you listen to them, you would learn an awful lot from. your posts just seem to be disagreeing with everything put forward, yet you tell me by PM you show your dogs and spend an awful lot on showing and breeding. yet there are some simple facts you don't know, and some comments that make it seem you agree with BYB. Everyone has an opinion, its just difficult to work out why you are so anti presenting dogs for assesment when you say on one hand showing means nothing, yet on the other you say you both show and breed

when di i say showing means nothing? all i said was that showing is not the be all and end all of dogs

showers have ruined loads of breeds anyway

This comments, and your follow ups give the real impression of your opinions of the 'showers'

hayley123

ive realised that all this aite is about is peoples opinions on how they think things should be done
Like the little pearl of wisdom you shared with us recently; that all bitches should be mated on day 10.
Comming on here for advice is one thing but spraying inaccuracies around is quite another.

>everything thing is show show show

More like 'assess, assess, assess' - by independent, unbiased people. We all think our dogs are the best thing since sliced bread, so it's important for the good of the breed as a whole (which is what breeding is all about of course) that we take off our rose-tinted specs and have them assessed by an unbiased eye. It could be in the showring or it could be in the field (gundogs, teriers etc).

judges are not unbiased they are extremely biased i watch crufts every year and there is never a breed that i like in the line up for the overall winner

judges are not unbiased they are extremely biased i watch crufts every year and there is never a breed that i like in the line up for the overall winner

Oh dear. Well, in that case I would say don't watch ;)

Group and BIS judging is not what anyone here is talking about, that is most often  popularity or showmanship contest. 

You hardly see any actual breed judging at Crufts, which is where the assessment of a breed against it's standard occurs.

Group and BIS is just a bit of fun or ego trip, and to be honest anyone could judge that, as after all if the judges in the breeds are any good all the BOB's should be outstanding dogs, so just take your pick.

This is where individual performance and charisma come into it, the show part of showing dogs which is not the important part.  It is when this part takes priority with the emphasis on presentation and handling (which can be catered for in handling and grooming competitions), and judges overlook construction, type, and temperament in favour of glamour, is when things are all wrong.

Sadly it is only this side that the general public ever see once a year.  The important assessment and comparison in breed judging would make very poor TV, and frankly the nuances ans differences between what makes a good dog would be lost on the average man in the street, it take years when your immersed in a breed.

>i watch crufts every year and there is never a breed that i like in the line up for the overall winner

Then perhaps the BoB of the breeds that you like weren't as good as the other BoBs in their groups. That's got nothing to do with biased judging. The judges are the ones who check the bite of every dog, assess their movement and structure, etc. Nobody can seriously judge a dog from a TV picture.

From what I can tell there is alot of ignorance with the general public as to why people show dogs,they don't realise that it is essentialy to assess breeding stock and think there's something snobby or elitist about it (often byb's will state this too).If more people realised how essential showing is to preserve the very breeds they claim to love less people would buy from byb's ,puppy farms etc and less dogs would end up in rescue.
I don't show or breed but when looking for a pup I still wanted the best example I could find ,thankfully I'd done some research and realised the difference between a show breeder and a puppy producer.A good breeder that does everything right(including showing/working their dogs) will be alot more help to you in the long run than one that just churns out pups for the sake of it and the profit.I've yet to hear any other  decent reason for not showing/working any dog you want to breed.
My best friend runs a breed rescue and she's yet to see a well bred dog come through the rescue.

wouldnt own or breed a dog unless it was well bred our last spaniel had at least 32 ftch in her ped she was rytex bred and a good worker. my 10 moth old border pup has about 40 champions in 6 generations

yet none of these well bred dogs have breeders that endorse their registrations

tell me why you think its important to endorse registrations? what does it matter if people register pups produced by thier dogs? and why shouldnt people be allowed to register their dogs with a different kennel club?

1/ To help stop the puppies being used as breeding machines is one reason.

As to the rest,

what does it matter if people register pups produced by thier dogs? and why shouldnt people be allowed to register their dogs with a different kennel club?

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

let me ask you, why would someone breed pedigree dogs  without registering them? Why pay for a club that is linked to a puppy supermarket? That has no standing in the dog world?

let me ask you, why would someone breed pedigree dogs  without registering them? Why pay for a club that is linked to a puppy supermarket? That has no standing in the dog world?

And where health tests like hip scores and eye tests etc would NOT be printed on registration cetificates, and would not be part of any official scheme -that is if any were carried out at all, which is unlikely.......

well i didnt endorse my last litter one went to a friend cheap as their bitch i sold them got ran over and died t5hey wanted a pup for working. one person intends to stud out their dog i kept a pup for showing. the last bitch has been spayed and the other dog has been neutered so i had no need to endorse my litter

So you are absolutely sure the person who is going to 'stud out' their dog will only ahve the best bitches, that he will have the pup health tested and so will the bitches owners, and that they all will knwo what they are doing, and that they won't be tempted to use him even if he doesn't turn out well?

>why shouldnt people be allowed to register their dogs with a different kennel club?

Do you mean with the official Kennel Club of another country? If so, it's to prevent an unscrupulous person buying one of your puppies and shipping it abroad to possibly be used to churn out puppies for a foreign puppy farmer.

>and why shouldnt people be allowed to register their dogs with a different kennel club?

Possibly more to the point, why would anyone bother paying to 'register' their dog with another kennel club to produce a piece of paper that has no more value than a pedigree you made up and printed on your printer at home?

M.

showers have ruined loads of breeds anyway cus now half of em wont work. terriers were bred to kill foxes etc etc and before the ban came in you should have tried to find a dog that would do this cus not many would

Hayley I am a bit confused with you texting bare with me :-)  I have worked out cus means cause but not got a clue about showers..

I have terriers and they are all sleeping on the couch right now.  I can 100% assure you in full show coat a fox, mouse, rabbit passed my door they would get it and tear it to bits. They have done it and I have seen it.  4 terriers tearing a rabbit in pieces.

Not sure what terriers you have met but the ones I know would do the job day in day out still like they did 100 years ago. No problem.

My pups from 5 weeks old start the ratting motions with their dog bedding and toys. It is in them genetically.

like you say a rabbit two of my dogs tore up a rabbit aswell but i rabbit cant hurt or fight back but a fox can see my point

No not at all.  Foxes don't get in my garden. Heaven help them if they did. My breed is a smaller terrier but they will hunt anything given the chance.

and how about german shepards they arent meant to be like that sloping backs cow hocked hip dysplasia etc showers did that

You'll mainly find that back yard casual breeders did that.  Hip scores among thsoe who care have improved over the genrations but it is still rife in the man next doors litters.

>and how about german shepards they arent meant to be like that sloping backs cow hocked hip dysplasia etc showers did that

German Shepherds are a German breed & the dogs that are breed to work sheep & cattle(their original job BTW not showing or guarding anything other than stock)need to have the slope of back. Have you ever seen a stock working GSD ? I very much doubt it. GSDs have been developed with a slope from the withers so that when they gait around the stock keeping them in a designated area shown to them by their keeper they keep a level topline allowing them to cover more ground. A dog that has a"Straight/level"topline in stance will drop on forehand when gaiting, meaning the dog has to use more energy to move & thus reducing it ability to do it's job.

As for HD this was not bred in by people who show(the International type) or work their dogs & in fact these are the people who not breed from unscored dogs & who do all the health tests. Pet breeders rarely if ever do so

Cow hocked well the UK style GSD(whose breeders prefer to call Alsatians)are over angulated & over long in body-many of this type are what the pet & BYB & puppy farmers breed, not health tested by & large. These are the ones that are cow hocked because of their conformation.

We have at our club a pet breed GSD he comes from untested parents & was bought fairly cheaply. He has a temperament problem because for 6 months just just when she should have been socialising & being trained he was so ill with EPI the vets didn't know if he was going to live. When his owners went back to the "breeders"they were told that his father was just the same !!! & yes they had another litter bred the same way ! These "breeders"do not show or work their dogs just produce them for the pet market

I really do think you need to step back & evaluate well bred GSDs with super temperaments & sound conformation. The schutzhund working bred dogs are not a first owners dog, but they do have excellent temperaments(the tests they have to pass before being bred from see to that They are also sound physically as well otherwise they would not pass the breed survey before being bred from

You clearly put down all the health problems in dogs down to people who show & work their dogs & see pet breeders as the saviours of dogs. sadly this is not so, take Cavaliers-ask a pet breeder if they have all the health testing done & they will say yes my vet has said my dogs OK to breed from, they only this their GP vet has to listen to their dogs hearts to make them fit for breeding, forgetting the eye tests & MRI scanning required to make sure they don't breed from dogs with Syringomyelia Most will never even heard of SM & carry on breeding regardless, many vets are not aware of the symptoms of SM & therefore misdiagnose it. Saviours of the Cavalier ? pet breeders certainly are not that.

This article showing that 67% of all pedigree dogs in the USA are bred by these kinds of Pet/backyard breeders.  They are re unfortunately in the main reason why health and temperament is so much more of a lottery http://www.nopuppymillscanada.ca/back_yard_breeders.htm and that is without the puppy farmers.

I have no reason to believe statistics will be much different here in the UK.

What we want is for that small core of good breeders breeding to standard to work and show and who health test etc to be bigger and the other two to not be there at all. 

Probably puppies would be harder to obtain,, but then those that were available would e going to screened homes rather than just those who have a fancy and have the money. 

The breeders would be seeing about re-homing any coming unstuck themselves, and rescue centres would largely be redundant as far as pedigree dogs go at least, and very few people would breed mongrels, as there is no need even if an accidental mating occurs, a bitch can have the litter aborted or be spayed.

yes maybe a schutzhund dog has good health etc but that doesnt stop people breeding them to their show bitches for example two yrs ago we had to put to sleep our shepherd due to bad hips he couldnt even stand up he was 7 his sire was karado avax who is schutzhund 3 awarded his hip score is 0/0 he was put to a show bitch whos hips are 4/3 her sires hips are 8/9. my hubby had 3 reject pups from this litter and last yr we were offered one that came from the same line these dogs have far too much fire in them for the pet or show market you say schutzhund dogs have sound tempermants yes maybe for schutzhund trials but not as pets

How much more of the bitches side were hip scored though, if only the dam and her sire then you have a quarter or a pedigree with unknown status. 

Sadly though the occasional pup from good hip lines will still develop HD due to nutritional and environmental considerations as well as perhaps a bad mix of genes from further back than the scored dogs.  HD is not a simple inheritance.

What was your dogs hips score?

Regarding the temperament of the litter, how good and steady was the bitches character, high drive mated to a weak character would obviously cause problems.  High working drive has got to be allied to rock steady temperament.

we didnt get our dog hip scored as he was a security/guard dog and we never bred from him

So how so you know his problem was exclusively HD, could spondylosis have been a contributory factor?  Also what kind of environmental contributing factors might there have been, or injuries causing arthritis?

which form of spondylosis are you talking about?

wasn't being specific, but GSD's do have problems of the spine (see here: http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=spondylosis+in+German+shephered+dogs&meta=) etc also CDRM which will show in loss of hind limb function, which can lead to the assumption of HD, or make not so good hip status seem worse.

Hm He was 7 before he lost the use of his legs-sorry but that is NOT HD far more likely to be DM & no one knows what causes this despite a huge amount of research-I had one dog with it yet his litter sister didn't. They both had good hips. What breeding was the show bitch ? there is far more to breeding good GSDs that putting a dog bred from German imports into the UK from show lines to a show bitch.What was the bitches character like ? Bitches have far more influence over temperaments than than the sires as it is the bitches that raise the puppies not the dogs & if the bitch was sharp then odds on the puppies would be too. Did your dog gradually lose the use of his back legs ? Did your vet X ray him or simply diagnose HD because he was a GSD ?

The dog you mention is not a German dog But a UK dog that does schutzhund here from German show lines NOT schutzhund lines(just because dogs from Germany had the Sch H III doesn't mean they are working GSDs lots of show dogs have their Sch H III. The link will take you the dog's father who clearly is a show bred import not a schutzhund bred dog

My friend Petra breeds Schutzhund GSDs(in Germany) & her dogs like all the dogs I have met that do schutzhund in Germany live as pets but are trained to do Schutzhund. They HAVE to have good temperaments in Germany as they have to pass very strict tests for character & to fail means to deselected for breeding.

the dogs father is Sch H 3 awardedaswell  as is his sire

the dog isnt a uk dog it was an import from somewhere but not germany and the woman paid 16 thousand for the dog it was part ownership with two other people so im not sure if they all paid 16 thousand each or if that was the total altogether

That won't be £16,000 pounds BTW & he came from Germany(I looked up his son by mistake & is a show dog not a Schutzhund bred dog-he is from pure show lines. I know someone who claimed to have paid 16,000 for an all black import It was 16,000 but it was DM not GBP making one h*ll of a lot of different. He was a working bred GSD with not just Sch H III behind his name but also IPO 3 & he has been in many Schutzhund competitions-I know because I was there when he was paid for. I think the 16,000 that was paid for the dog that was the sire of your 7 year old would have come in to the UK before the Euro so it would  DMs as well

Please can we get this thread back on topic ;-) If you want to continue discussing this particular GSD, can you do it by PM please

Thanks

Ditto mine, Blue Hayley, what is the reason you want to breed the "perfect" dog if they are not shown or worked and how would anyone be aware of their quality.

i spoke to one of my pup owneras the other day they took their dog to a kc arranged show a few months back and the dog can 3rd out of 25 other dogs the dog would have been 6 or 7 months

Was this a championship show or an Open show?

If it was  a Companion/Exemption show where to be honest the judge may have very little knowledge of your breed, and serious breeders consider the results of little importance and their use is for show experience and raising money for good causes.

im not too sure i was more interested in the dogs temperment and health than what type of show it was soz

Well if they simply took him along on the day then it was likely to be a companion show, especially with 25 in the class, as I don't think you often get 25 puppy dogs in a class even at Breed club championship shows, even in the numerically strongest breeds.

But I am a bit concerned that the aim seems to be pups for the show ring only.

Why should or does that concern you? 

I don't think any real breed enthusiast puts the show ring first and foremost without temperament or health in equal importance BUT that is why they will be breeding the odd litter, for the show ring.

People have come back to me for a second or replacement dog when they have lost one I bred, because they trust that they will most likely get another good companion who will turn out to be a good example of the breed with low risk of health problems and most importantly a good temperament. If they wanted a 'show dog' I would recommend that they approached someone with currently winning dogs.


You have almost hit the nail on the head , I didn't expect it to come from you in your reply but being honest your reply almost fits my earlier comments.

I am going to be real honest with you with hand on my heart , the only people I have every heard saying that there is a concern that pups are being bred for the show ring or that health  or temperament etc is being put secondary ( which for 99% of good breeders is rubbish)  is people producing litters for pets only. I won't go into my own opinion on this whether for or against breeding for pets only.

What is interesting is you have said "it concerns you pups being bred for the ring only",  like that makes the reason for people to breed pet litters without the showring or working ability in mind a valid reason. I am sorry but you get all 3 from good honest breeders.  HEALTH, TEMPERAMENT AND TYPE.

Your comments almost suggest or could imply if you want a dog with good temperament and healthy buy from someone who breeds for the pet market only, and not from a show breeder as they are only focused on the show ring.

Most real genuine breed enthusiasts would be gutted if anyone thought they were like that.

You haven't said how often you breed or how many litters you have had. I can't comment on your own circumstance without knowing it. I am not sure if it is for me to comment.

One this is for sure, whether 5 or 40 years owning a breed I can't quite understand how people can measure the quality of their stock if they dont show the dogs or work them, and because of this I can't understand how someone can them say they are doing all they can for the breed.  The odd visit to a show I don't think can assist you that well.

Please please correct me if you think I am wrong and I am not trying to be personal honestly.

So I don't know whether you think that I meet any of the definitions given - back at  the very first question 'what makes a breeder experienced?'


If you ask me now with the bare in mind limited knowledge I have of you I would say you are experienced but, I am not sure I could at this stage say how knowledgable about your breed.   Certainly not in comparison to someone owning your breed the same length of time as you but who had been working , showing or even just taking part in breed activities.  

There are many people who for one reason or another don't continue showing but love the breed so much they do other things for it, sit on committees, help raise money for rescue and also run rescue, ( we have a top breeder who visits here that doesn't show much now and I don't think she breeds at all but does a brilliant job of rescue)

I am not sure what you want me to say :-)

>I try as we all do ,I hope, to breed to  the breed standard

The trouble is that it's all to easy to find your 'eye' fitting the standard to your dogs, rather than the other way around. Without the continual challenge to the eye of other good examples of your breed you become easy prey to kennel blindness - the curse of many an otherwise good breeder.