Della B
I hope, to breed to  the breed standard,  health test before breeding, home pups responsibly. Not one has ever been through breed rescue in all these years.

Snap !!!!

Actually I have a foot in both camps and slightly resent the inference that, because I don't tote my dogs all over the country anymore
(unlike 15-20years ago), they are in some way sub-standard. I actually think the quality of my dogs has improved since I've become less 'show oriented'. I'm less likely, I feel, to be taken down the fashionable route that is very tempting when the quest for 'the little card' is all. It's amazing what a fresh eye reveals after a year out of the show ring when a new stud dog is king.

Hi Tooolz,

How long did you drag your dogs all around the country for before you decided you bred better dogs away from the showring?

Just wondered if you had more or less show experience that in Della's example.

If you don't go to the shows and see what are available, and (more importantly) their progeny, how do you find the right stud dog for your bitch?

On the contrary, I go many shows, visit lots of breeders, see loads of puppies, accompany friends to matings, help deliver said ofspring, help in choosing their POL and even run classes to help them show them. Oh and I  judge them too! As I said on another thread, I do pop my dogs out to the odd show, get the obligitory Crufts qualification then .......
If I wake up and think S*d it I can't be bothered to go to that show today, and I dont.

I said Tote: (def: to carry) as in car  Not Drag : to pull across the floor (as in cruely against their will.)
My showing experience: first  ever class: Rutherglen open show 1977 cocker spaniel   1st puppy
Most recent : BOB local open show 2nd in group, big entry always is (40ish I think).My other bitch won her class too,  October this year.
Most recent trip to see decent dog: When I mated my bitch to a super dog  (and cuddled his champion mum)owned by our breed club secretary.Oh and yes went to my mates house to play with her 4 champion bitches and see her latest babies.
Does any of this count in my favour?

On the contrary, I go to lots of shows, visit lots of breeders, see loads of puppies, accompany friends to matings, help deliver said ofspring, help in choosing their POL and even run classes to help them show them. Oh and I  judge them too! As I said on another thread, I do pop my dogs out to the odd show, get the obligitory Crufts qualification then .......


Exactly :-)  this was my point of asking as I knew that you were not quite in the same boat. I asked so you would say it ;-) I know many breeders who have slogged their guts out for the breed for many years and then decide after x amount to take a back seat. I think that is perfectly fine and well earned :-)

Thank you for that Blue.
When I first read your reply my back went up and my answer may have sounded a little clipped. I apologise if it sounded so.
It's just the thought that I may have been accused of abusing my precious dogs  .... and somewhere in my heart, I do feel gulity about the time I've spent using them for my own ends.They have given me so much. Thats why I'm a little defensive about it I'm sure, my problem not yours.

If you don't go to the shows and see what are available, and (more importantly) their progeny, how do you find the right stud dog for your bitch?

I haven't shown as much over the past 2 years but I keep an eye on the showring however I know what exactly is out there in my breed.....yet my 7 year old Sh.Ch. bitch was never mated because I couldn't find what I wanted.

This has been a very interesting post.
My thoughts, well I do show and I do breed and I have certain criteria which I keep to. I will not compromise what I like for the latest FASHION statement, I show in order to keep a balanced view of the breed and for the opinions of others to keep me from becoming Kennel blind. However I do have a picture in my mind as to what I think my breed should be like, but it is very interesting to have a variety of opinions from others as well.
Unfortunately there are not many true Knowledgeable, experienced, CLEVER breeders out there who are breeding for  excellent temperament, healthy stock who are true to type, be it for the show ring or not, I like to think my pups could fit any bill, they are as healthy as I can make them, well adjusted true to the standard and I would like to think that they would suit show, pet or working homes. The breed standard asks for a dog that could do all three things and hopefully my puppies could, in the right homes.
I am not so dim as to think I know it all about my chosen breed and show to keep me focused and keep my sights up to date.
IMO an experienced breeder does ensure that they have pups who fulfill all the requirements for their breed. Repetition (As someone said) does not make for experience and knowledge comes with learning listening and keeping your opinions up to date, all this is helped by being around others who are like minded about what they do and this is best found around the show rings, in the breed clubs and at seminars specific to your breed, never mistake quantity for experience they are a whole different ball game!
Do not venture into BREEDING just for fun, a few quid, or because you LIKE it, one day your pups may come back to haunt you, there is so much more responsibility needed now with our litigative society, can you handle the flack if it comes your way?  Believe me the courts are not knowledgeable about dogs and hereditary illness, we all need to ensure that we have done the best for our new owners, BYB are taking a risk every time they breed from untested stock. (Yes I know the bigger picture is concern over the health of the pups but they don't care about that). And for what it's worth IMO every breeder should campaign their stock in order to keep a well adjusted picture and the opinion of others who may see things differentally.
Aileen

But you still use the experience from the show ring and the show world in order to be able to see the breed and how it is developing. 

The show ring and in some cases the working arenas are forums for comparing potential breeding stock. 

You need some method to do this, and you could not have done or learnt what you have without being part of that world even if you are not active in the actual competition you are watching the competition and what they produce. 

As you say you have seen fads come and go and seen improvements and in other areas things that have been allowed to slip.

You would not have been able to do this or breed sound typical stock by sitting at home with a pet bitch whose quality you had no way of evaluating and having nothing to do with other breeders, handlers or competitors.

                      touché

:D

I know what you are saying in many ways as you are a person involved in the show and breeding world, but perhaps are at a stage where the value of the judges opinion is less than your own knowledge and you find fewer and fewer judges whose opinions you value.

My own mentors in my breed were and are in this category, and both did not show that often, more because of disinclination but also due to age making travelling more difficult.

These people do not need to show every bitch to evaluate her quality, or wait until a dog has won well before they use him as they can rely largely on their own knowledge, but this was not always so.

Without regular contact with the show and field a breeder cannot evaluate what they and more importantly others are breeding.

You need to have an eye to the breed as a whole to even decide what faults have to be given immediate attention or not tolerated, and what can safely be left a while. 

For arguments sake you have a beautiful bitch, except she has poor ears, but ears are good throughout the breed, you would still use her but try to select for improvement in ears which should';t be hared as they a re in the majority. 

Lets say ears are universally bad, your breeding decisions will be different you will not only be looking for a good match, but you will be specifically looking for good ears and checking that the dogs ancestors also had great ears.  In the resulting litter your bias between pups will be to keep the one with the improved ears,a nd you hope you haven't lost anything vital in the process.

To breed for improvement you have to know not only where your going but where the rest of the breed is going.  If you strongly believe the breed is going off course then as an experienced person in the bred you are placed to sound a cautionary note, which hopefully the breed and judges will heed, and the course can be rectified before going off too far.

I think it is no wonder that in some breeds the dogs have changed dramatically when perhaps they a re a popular breed and have a large turn over in breeders and exhibitors, there are few people who notice the changes before they are too late.

This is where breed clubs really must not neglect breed elders when they become less active in the breeds, perhaps not being able to get out to shows or to have the dogs they once had.  these retired breed experts knowledge needs to be treasured.

I have only been in my current breed some 15 years and it makes me sad to see that so few people new to a breed look back into the breeds history. 

They don't even know the lines their dogs are based on, and when the elders in a breed come to a club show they don't even know who they are or take the trouble to engage them in conversation, (as perhaps they are not the current winning breeders) and take the opportunity to soak up the knowledge.

My breeder has been dead now some 5 years, and her contemporaries are getting thin on the ground, but I can and could sit with them and when taking my foundation bitches pedigree back, was able to find out what these dogs were like what they tended to produce in virtues and faults, what they were like to live with.

I am now into the 6th generation of my own breeding and except for imports where knowledge of ancestors will be second hand find knowing so many of the dogs in a pedigree in person, little quirks in personality and looks that all come through sometimes after a couple of generations is fascinating, and helpful.

perhaps are at a stage where the value of the judges opinion is less than your own knowledge and you find fewer and fewer judges whose opinions you value.
God no!  I think I'm just ambitionless now B or perhaps bone idle.
I think I just see the bigger picture now not just todays fads.
15 years ago if you wanted to win in my breed your chances were considerably increased by using a certain FAMOUS stud dog who was very small but his puppies were gorgeous and he produced many champions (I had one with 1 cc and 1rcc)... but a champion bitch the size of a welsh springer!!!
Then an Aust import brought us the over the angulation/ no second thigh  thingy.... now almost entirely the norm.
I think in breeds where the entry is touching 300 at most ch shows, you really do need to have a bit of the fitting in and playing the game mentality..... or maybe it's natural evolution.

Oh I totally get the not having the cut throat ambition, and bone idle tendencies.  It is sometimes more amusing to watch others do it.

What an interesting thread this is and alot of varying opinions so i felt id like to add my piece too. I have only been showing my dogs for a couple of years so not experienced as you might say  although i have had puppies and have homes organised before they were born but must admit ive had my eyes opened, there are most definately well known kennels and breeders who i would say are experienced, they are helpful and have a genuine interest in the breed and  give the wealth of their experience to novices and i have come across others who are supposed to be experienced got Champions and names for themselves yet constantly breed for looks and not temperament.I had bought a pup from a breeder who was doing this i went to her as she had a "wealth of experience" in the breed  i returned the pup .
What id like to know is have all the people that show their dogs  had a pet dog  to start with , even when they were kids  I dont necessarily agree with people breeding pets but why then do show people let their stud dogs out to people with pets who arent up to standard.  I know alot wont and good on them sticking by their standards but i know a few who do, and these people give genuine people a bad name .  surely this is just as bad and is just profiting in my book.Often i see adverts in papers like ad trader for pups from registered litters from breeders who cant get homes for their pups, but still charge the same as a pup that is of a better standard why?.
I think there must be a distinction made between people like Hayley123 and unscrupulous breeders (show or pet ) and i would say she had experience of whelping and rearing which doesnt mean the same as breeding for looks or profit we all know if we breed responsibly you dont make a profit.and how do we know that a pet bred dog cant become a champion anyway?im sure there must be some.My latest pup came from a pet breeder and have had her looked at by breed specialists and shes a lovely example.

how do we know that a pet bred dog cant become a champion anyway?
To my knowledge,in the breeds that I've had, this has never happened ( at least in the last 3 decades). We have breed records going back with all champions and their pedigrees listed. There are always recognisable parents and/or g.parents.

Known plenty of dogs bought purely for a pet to become champions in my breed and most others I woudl guwss when the owners have decided to try their hand (bred and sold one like that myself, and had one back that was my first one), but you will not find any dog without good breeding further back than grandparents coming up with such quality by pure chance.

Any breeder in their first or second generation is largely capitalising on the knowledge of the breeders of the foundation stock.

> how do we know that a pet bred dog cant become a champion anyway?

The Bassett Hound that lives across the road from me is pet bred, is an Irish Champion, GB Champion and he took BOB at Crufts this year.  Probably the exception rather than the rule I would have thought but it obviously does happen from time to time.

Yes but I bet he at least has excellent grandparents, all pet breeding for more than the first two or three generations and you just are not going to get a top class example by fluke.

A friend of mine got a pet bred dobe bitch free to good home from the paper, she had been given to a man in the pub and been badly treated at only five months old. 

Both her parents were by different influential prepotent sires, and she was good enough to be shown winning a puppy class in the early 90's at Bath, but she matured into rather a doggy girl, super nature and lived to 13 years, but had hypothyroidism most of her life.

"but why then do show people let their stud dogs out to people with pets who aren't up to standard."

this shouldn't happen.  A stud dog owner should be looking at the bitch in the same way as they would when choosing a potential mate for their bitch, and be looking for them complementing each other to produce typical quality pups.  After all A breeder who cares about the reputation of their dog will not want ti mated to rubbish as the dog will get the reputation for producing poor stock.

Sadly there are some greedy folk, especially in the commercially exploited breeds who may be tempted to take the stud fee knowing full well those pups will never see the light of day, but with the not for showing endorsement done away with they could well find themselves embarrassed by someone showing one.  Worse still of course is that their famous dog may well end up being the grand sire of lots of puppy farm fodder.

I have a relative who paid nearly full puppy price for a 10 month old monorchid Samoyed dog for a pet.

He had one famous dog at the top of the fifth generation of his pedigree. 

he was huge, long in body and looked more like a white GSD than a Samoyed.  The breeder of the famous ancestor would have been horrified at the poor example bred down from him, but of course at that point their dog was only just over 3% of the pedigree.

This is one reason breeders endorse their pups "progeny not for registration", but this has to continue down the lines.

Trouble is pet owners dont always endorse their pups when theyve used a champ stud Its a good way to ensure lines are kept good though. Just thought i dont want anyone to take any of my comments  personally, unfortunately this is what ive come across and it dosnt look to0 good for genuine people, i suppose you get to sniff them out through time (excuse the pun ) !!!

>how do we know that a pet bred dog cant become a champion anyway?

In my breed the current CC breed record holder is the daughter of the previous breed CC record holder. And he was bought from a well-bred litter to be a family pet, but his quality was so good that they entered him in a show to keep his breeder happy ... Although he was bought as a pet, he wasn't from a 'pet-bred' litter. There's a huge difference.

Mostly when you buy a registered  pup it has champs somewhere in the lines and if it is then bred to a champion is this still classed as a pet bred dog?. where is the line drawn,? years ago a friend of mine bred a registered litter for working ,5 out of 6 excelled, the same mating 2 years later produced 1 of any use for working this will happen with show stock also and just because 2 good dogs are mated doesnt mean that the pups will be good too, i admit it bumps up the chances but it can also work the other way around.

I ahve only ever repeated a mating once and the second litter were quite different to the first, though both litters contained top drawer individuals.

As for whether the pet bred bitch mated to a champuion sire woudl be considered pet bred woudl depend on the quality of the bitch the compatibility of the two parents and the knowledge and skill of the breeder.

Some breeders have the knack of finding something promising in inexpereinced breeders or owners litters, and bought them in with success, but they have usually known the lines behind the pet bitch, so it isn't too far back.  Sometimes lines that have disapeeared from the gene pool can be recovered by finding such a dog or bitch, and breeders have recovered a line almost lost that way.

I hope this thread isn't locked but I've a feeling that the original question is now being lost in a show dogs -v- not show dogs discussion and the question was principally about what makes a breeder experienced.

What about the other part of my original posting, does someone who's only owned males/never bred a litter but has had the same breed for over 20 years be more/less knowledgabel than someone 2-3 years in a breed and having bred 1 litter?

Sorry but I am going to lock this thread now - it's going off at various tangents despite a request to keep things on topic and is getting very hard to follow.