hi
just read your post and no i dont think that not being very interested in showing makes you an undesireable breeder, like you say you try to breed to the breed standard, you health test ,and home pups responsibly, which IMO i think makes you a desireable breeder, as lots of people out there arent bothered by the things you are. showing isnt for everyone. someone earlier in this topic said something along the lines of you shouldnt breed your bitch unless shes been proven in the show ring or field. i personally dont agree with this as showing or working isnt the be all and end all of dogs.

What is the be all and end all in dogs, IYO, hayley123?

i personally dont agree with this as showing or working isnt the be all and end all of dogs.

Well why breed then?  What is the purpose of continued breeding? How can you assess your dogs meet the breed standard or can do the work intended

Just intested in the replies.

well whats wrong with just having dogs and pets

well whats wrong with just having dogs and pets

Nothing at all but why breed from your pets and put them through a risky period unless you have some real goal other than keeping the pet market in pets.  If I stopped showing there would not be another litter bred in my house.   I could buy a good quality pet surplus to a good show breeders requirement quite easily for a good quality, healthy happy pet.

Someone won't like it but ............

what about breeding to keep a pup for yourself that you dont intend to show whats wrong with that or how about breeding because its something you enjoy doing

what about breeding to keep a pup for yourself that you dont intend to show whats wrong with that or how about breeding because its something you enjoy doing

It depends how often you do it, but if you rear a litter correctly select the best stud for your bitch you would have been far cheaper buying a decent one in from the same lines.

Breeding bitches because YOU enjoy it is a ridiculous reason for breeding.  If you enjoy it that much then you have them :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: Can't believe someone said that

i didnt mean Me i meant you as in people in general

Hayley,

I know you didn't mean you personally and I didn't either :-)  BUT   I was stressing that just because "you" meaning ( anyone who thinks it) does it because they enjoy is rediculous.

tell me how you rear a litter correctly then? best stud for bitch, healthy parents, no heriditary problems reared on good food, vet checked, innoculated, microchipped what else? all that is easy

tell me how you rear a litter correctly then? best stud for bitch, healthy parents, no heriditary problems reared on good food, vet checked, innoculated, microchipped what else? all that is easy

Is it, very interesting.   How much do you take for whelping a litter ;-)

  Never heard any hard working breed enthusiast ever say that.

Edited to add my comments about how much Haley takes for whelping a litter was tougue in cheek meaning if she doesn't it for a reasonable amount and so well I will pay her to do mine ;-) :-D because I don't find it easy at all.

.

what do you mean how much do you take for whelping a litter

can i ask why you dont find it easy? i find it easy because im a kept woman and have lots of spare time on my hands

[ttcan i ask why you dont find it easy? i find it easy because im a kept woman and have lots of spare time on my hands ]

Interesting. What do you do for your breed then with all this free time :-))   Surely you just don't breed them :-)

no occasionally i show, i work my dogs, i reasearch the breed and my dogs pedigrees, i groom them my self, walk all four 3 times a day aswell as clean up after them, play with them and train them all my self

One thing I have never heard said is that breeding dogs is easy In fact, the opposite.........just the whelping time itself is long hours, mostly at least one overnight, eyes like sacks, and thats just me being the 'spare set of hands' and tea maker. :rolleyes: I would say that anyone who makes that comment is either very inexperienced or has never been there at a long, prolonged, drawn out and maybe difficult whelping, or has never correctly raised a litter of squelling, dirty, noisy, bitey, scratchy puppies, who need constant cleaning up after day and night, who need to be played with and socialised every day including independantly, regardless of size of litter and any other life/home commitments, then there are the countless phone calls and emails from the excited potential new owners, the visits, all very welcome but its tiring when at full stretch to be totally hospitable when you feel totally shattered. The possibility of ten emails a day to be replied to, with in some cases pictures which have to be taken, cropped and presented to send, as well as all the things needed for bitch and puppy care, and attempting to keep the house spotless and tidy for the visitors, iorning done, meals cooked, how can anyone say breeding a litter is easy

You forgot the knees being worn out and painful :D

if you find it so extremely hard to breed and rear why do it

you find it so extremely hard to breed and rear why do it

if you read back over the posts here you will see why :) No point repeating things on such a long thread. :)

if you find it so extremely hard to breed and rear why do it

If a breeder is doing everything properly then it is very hard,it's the ones sticking two dogs together then counting the profit that find it easy.

http://www.geocities.com/~olelo/shelties/whatisabreeder.html

http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/breeder.html

None of that sounds easy to me.

Plus the agony of letting the pups go.My dogs breeder cried her eyes out when we left as she does with all of them.It made me feel so guilty! I know I couldn't do it.

If I just want a pet I'll get a mismark or similar from someone else's top-bred litter - I wouldn't buy one from a litter where the breeder wasn't hoping for perfection.

we all hope for perfection doesnt mean you have to show or work your dog though

we all hope for perfection doesnt mean you have to show or work your dog though

Well you will have a lot greater chance of getting perfection if you get that dog in the ring or work it.. that sitting at home breeding them because you enjoy it. 

why will you have a greater chance of perfection cus of showing or working?

It depends what perfection you are looking for :-)

we all hope for perfection doesnt mean you have to show or work your dog though

well whats wrong with just having dogs and pets

Hayley,you've just covered points 5 and 10 of this list...

http://www.heroswaggintrain.com/bybreed_pm_book.htm

i did not say that its not important to have show champions or working certificates i wouldnt own or breed a dog unless it was well bred our last spaniel had at least 32 ftch in her ped she was rytex bred and a good worker. my 10 moth old border pup has about 40 champions in 6 generations if i went back further i could find more

But that wouldn't mean they are well bred unless the breeder understood how and whether those lines fitted to gether to in probability produce good dogs.

You can have soemone start out with littermates, mate them to dogs of the sem family, but through selection end up with totally different dogs in two generatiosn.

I can think of two relatively recent breeders in my own breed whose stock looks nothing like the others yet they are based and using mostly the same bloodlines, but their selection criteria are different. 

Of course to the casual observer all of the breed look alike.

i can understand what you are saying but the person who my two and a half yr old border bitch came from does understand lines and all his dogs look like each other but on the other hand i have a friend who breeds russels and not one of them looks like each other

I am not sure if an inexperienced person can tell type that easily.

I have a freind who had a litter and was running on two pups, she told me they were completely opposites.  when I saw them I thought the exact opposite what I could see if one was of better quality that the other,  one had poorer angulation front and back,, which made her looks short in neck due to upright shoulders, long in the back due to up right angulation ..BUT had the one with poor angulation have good angulation they would have been peas in a pod.

what i mean is some are 10 -12 in and others are 12-14 in she used to have a stud dog that was huge it must have been 16 in and extremely well built none of them have the same head shape either i also saw a pup that she bred it was 5 months old and bigger than my older border bitches and both of those are 13 i was absolutely gobsmacked

Ah, but can they be spanned? That's important in a border.

the dogs i was talking about are parson russells and no the big ones couldnt be spanned my borders are all spannable as is my russell

Parson Russell standard says:

Body
.........capable of being spanned behind the shoulders by average size hands. ......

Size
Most importantly a working terrier should be capable of being spanned behind the shoulders by average sized hands. Ideal height at withers: dogs 36 cms (14 ins.), bitches 33 cms (13 ins.) It is recognised that smaller terriers are required for work in certain areas and lower heights are therefore quite acceptable provided that soundness and balance are maintained.

So being spannable is stressed in two places in the standard.

the reason behind terriers being spannable is cus if they arent able to be they wouldnt be able to get down a fox hole

Yep my point exactly so the person breeding these terriers should be breeding in accordance with the standard, if not then they aren't much cop as a breeder.

i know what you mean but she doesnt work her terriers so it doesnt matter to her how big they are however she has got rid of the huge dog and now her stuff seems more reasonable. she shows at local shows and does very well and also at open/kc shows im sure her pup is qualified for crufts

So showing her dogs has helped her to realise what the breed SHOULD be like. You have therefore disproved your own point that you dont need to show to breed better dogs.

Agree, and if she had worked them she would also have realised she was on the wrong tack.

How long does it take to breed out faults in a line? if this 'big stud dog' has been used and was making the puppies big, surely it would take more than one or two generations to remove the size? And therefore make a puppy capable of Crufts qualification, or high places in open shows?

as for breeding out the size thats not relevant to her she didnt keep any of the pups the one i saw was one shed sold to someone

I see :rolleyes:

no cus she was showing b4 she bred all these big so showing didnt help her realise how dogs should be did it. and also what is it with you people everything thing is show show show

I would disagree, its not all 'show show show' Its conformation to the breed standard as described by the KC. which is what everyone who breeds dogs that are pure bred and Kc reg should be attempting to achieve. there should be no wandering from that, deliberate or not. Showing is simply to exhibit the dog you have, to be judged by experts in that breed, and confirm independantly that the puppies being produced are correct to the breed standard, and have recognition of that by placings. Where else other than a showground can you have such experts?(except of course in the working field ) Such wealth of knowledge and understanding of breed lines and standard? Its not 'showing for the glory' but to have the dogs assessed, of course its wonderful to have a high placing, and owners/breeders must be excited and happy when one of their babies gets a CC or even their first red rosette. But, its also to know that others value what they are producing (or not of course!)

no cus she was showing b4 she bred all these big so showing didnt help her realise how dogs should be did it. and also what is it with you people everything thing is show show show

The show world can only help those who want it.    Maybe she just doesn't care who knows.

Your arguement Hayley is not working in favour of anti-showing I am afraid :-)  probably quite the opposite.  A lot of people DO need the education.!!!!

i dont support the anti showers if theyre are any. i show my dogs im just fed up that all everyone goes on about on here is showing. ANTI SHOWING? PMSL

Well the site is called champdogs   Not anyhow bred dogs.

like you just stated CHAPM DOGS not SHOW dogs

and how does a dog become a champion?