How old should my dogs be before I breed them? We are very exsited to have puppys.

Are the KC registered? Are their registrations endorsed? Have they passed all the breed-relevant tests for hereditary conditions? Have they done well in the show ring or the hunting field? Are they good examples of the breed?

These are all vital before they're bred from.

Age is not the main determining factor as to whether your dogs should be bred from at all. 

Only about 10% of those puppies born are of the quality to be considered for breeding.  You will need to show and/or work your dogs to prove their quality.

You would also have to be extremely lucky to happen to own the best mate for your bitch in your own dog.

That is just the dogs, next is your education in your breed, and the art of breeding.  You should start by joining your local breed club, and attend club events and shows so you can start learning.

Please read the first three posts on the breeding board.

Larsen4,

That's a nice name....is it Danish by any chance?

I'm not completely in agreement that a dog needs to be shown to be bred.  I agree that mainly quality dogs should be bred or that breeding should be to better the breed or the line of that bitch, but showing is not the be all and end all for the decision to breed a dog.  There are many breeders who do not need to show their bitches to be able to know if it is a quality bitch which should be used in the breed or if it is a bitch who could produce quality puppies.  There are many breeders who breed their bitches to use and to improve the qualities of that particular bitch.  I have in the past seen stud dogs used who improve bitches in an immense way.  I have also seen top quality show bitches who produce very poor quality pups after being bred to top quality show studs (even after research into the lines etc.).  The breeding of any animal can produce the same results.

I used to have horses also.  A top quality stallion and some not too bad mares.  But this stallion produced fantastic foals with these mares.  A friend of mine also with mares of the same breed(which he showed and she was very successful) used my top quality stallion and had a poor result with two of the mares.  The lines had been researched and the results should have been good but the quality of the foals was poor.

I know of many people in the dog world also who have dogs who do not like to show, but they are top quality dogs.  So they do not show them.  But they have had excellent results in the breeding of the dogs also using good studs on non quality bitches.  I would say that it is a question of improving the line of that particular bitch.  I saw one litter from a friends use of a good quality stud on a very poor quality bitch.  The result was FANTASTIC.

Basically what I am saying is that I don't understand why every reply to a novice breeder on this site is "Have they done well in the show ring or the hunting field ?" "You will need to show and/or work your dogs to prove their quality"   It is not always necessary.

For Larsen4 - have them checked on hip scores etc by your vet.  Make research into the lines of your two dogs.  If you do not know how to do this then ask for some help from another breeder of this particular breed.  Do a lot of reading about the breeding of dogs and I mean a lot because firstly it is risky and secondly it is a lot and I mean a lot of hard work for a minimum of 4 months if not more.  This is only some of the things which you should do but you will learn a lot more the more you read.

The advantage of a good show or working record means that the animals have been assessed by (as near as can be) unbiased outsiders, and proved themselves. We all think our dogs are the best thing that ever happened in the breed but when we take off our rose-tinted specs they're usually only 'pretty good' at best! It's a very unusual person who can recognise a genuinely good dog when they first start out in a breed. Kennel blindness can be very dangerous! ;)

Kennel blindness can be very dangerous!

Too True!!

I agree that it is an advantage but all the same this doesn't necessarily mean that as a breeding dog they will produce results.  As I said to Larsen, I would ask for some good advice from someone with a lot of experience in the breed.

There are lots of dogs out there that are titled - so have in effect have been assessed as being 'ideal' specimens of their breed by at least 3 separate judges but who never produce a winner in their life no matter what dogs they mate or are mated too.

Toooo True !!!  Christine.  I think there are too many replies on this forum which say "YOU WILL NEED TO SHOW" to assess the suitability of your dogs for breeding.  Who needs to show ?  There are MANY ways to assess the suitability of your dogs for breeding not just shows.  

Now you have in my opinion went too far the other way Spugsy - if the breeder never shows they they can't possibly know if the dog or bitch they have is worth breeding from. I was almost agreeing with your first post, there may be the odd dog that for some reason can't be shown but may be valuable to a blood line, but if the breeder doesn't show at all they can't recognise this.

The reason that the standard reply to such messages is you must show or work your dog is it's a great way to weed out backyard breeders just breeding form their pets for profit - surely you're not advocating this? We don't know anything about the original poster but lets say that the two dogs are pets, it's unlikely that any breeder would sell top quality show potential pups as pets - but it does happen (Doesn't it Barbara ;) ) So possibly this person has great dogs but doesn't show them. From their short post it appears that they don't know an awful lot about breeding their dogs - instead of encouraging them to leap right in lets encourage them to attend some dog shows, they are a great way to learn more about your breed :)

The fact that the OP states that s/he has both bitch and dog raises alarm bells .....breeding is not just a case of putting two KC registered dogs together to get quality pedigree pups.

How does the OP know that the dog is the best dog that there is out there for their bitch?    If they've owned them both since puppyhood, unless they were experienced breeders - which from the original post we know they are not - are they aware of each dog's shortcomings?   Will the other dog's strengths overcome these?   Quite probably not.

I own both dogs and bitches, but I would always look outside for a better dog (or bitch) than my own in order to improve upon what I have = not that I have any plans to breed in the foreseeable future.:rolleyes:

Larsen - you ask for help in breeding your dogs - my suggestion is the same as others - look to your breeders to be your mentors.   If they are unwilling to do so, then join the breed society, and find people who will help you look at your own dogs dispassionately, score their good points and their bad points.   Do your background homework - check upon problems in your breed, ensure that both dogs have all the necessary health checks for your breed - and this does not mean that your vet gives them a quick physical!

Good luck!

Hi Tigger !!  I don't agree !!  There are many dogs out there who aren't shown but who in my opinion would be good for the breed.  I have for example one friend with a fantastic bitch which she keeps as a Pet.  In my opinion the dog would be fantastic in the show ring and she has also been seen by  many other people who know about this breed in particular.  I would advise that owner to breed the bitch after helping her to research the line.  Its not true that you can't possibly know if they are worth breeding from if they don't show.  How many times have you been to a show where the 1st place goes to an example who is not the same standard as the second place.  Or where a good animal finishes last in the class ?  I have seen it many times and don't just say this to help my friends in the breed.  I have also seen dogs placed after those of my friends and would say that the second place is better than the first.

I agree that novice breeders need a lot of information and help but it is not always through the shows that one can find out if you have a good breeding dog or not.  A good breeder with a lot of knowledge of the breed can also advise if a dog is of breeding quality or not.  And no I am not advocating that people breed for profit.  As I said in one of my first posts, breeding should be for improving.

I will give you an example Tigger.  I recently bred from one of my females who is not of top quality.  She was a pretty puppy, nothing special but she was my favourite of the litter and I decided to keep her.  She is a little thinner than others in her breed.   She is a little too long..  She has never been shown...  But I considered that I could better her line.  I bred her to a quality stud dog and the result is amazing...   Actually better than I could have imagined...  This is basically why I am saying that showing is not always the answer as this female would never have done well in the showring.

Also regarding selling top quality show potential pups.  Not all of these pups grow up to be top quality show potential adults.

I am just trying to be a bit easier on the posters here because I have read too many posts which are somewhat harsh.  I think we need to be a little kinder to the people who are posting here.  They are asking for advice !!!!  And they don't want to have replies which are like "Telling them off" as so many are.

Like I said, the answer isn't always SHOW SHOW SHOW.  The answer could also be "Why don't you try to see what a good breeder of the breed thinks !!"  Don't you agree ??  :rolleyes:

>In my opinion the dog would be fantastic in the show ring

Then why doesn't she show her and prove it? At the moment her 'quality' has only been assessed by people who could well be too polite to point out her faults (and all animals have them!).

>I have also seen dogs placed after those of my friends and would say that the second place is better than the first.

This is the problem with 'ringside judges' who don't actually go over the dogs in the ring - they haven't checked the bite, for example.

Then why doesn't she show her and prove it? At the moment her 'quality' has only been assessed by people who could well be too polite to point out her faults (and all animals have them!).

Why does she need to show her ?  She is not interested in showing her !!  Jeangenie  not everyone wants to show their dog !!  I agree that all animals have faults by why should a championship judge tell her that the quality of the dog is very high when he sees her outside of the ring ?????  It has nothing to do with people being too polite. 

The question on ringside judges is very questionable.  There are many very experienced breeders outside of the ring.  And I personally do not think that for example a dog who has huge patches coming out of his coat can be placed before a dog who has a perfect coat.  This dog with the huge patches coming out of his coat has to be considered as not to standard I think !!!  When I speak about coming second place to a dog which is inferior I think I know what I am talking about !

Personally I would think conformation comes before coat Spugsy - and that is the sort of thing you'll better be able to judge by getting your hands on the dog. You've just proven Jeangenies statement about ringside judges with this comment :)

Anyway we're going off topic by talking about specific cases.

I think you should have seen this dog tigger.  The one in second place was not mine nor from any friend of mine.  When I talk about patches on the coat, I mean patches completely missing from the coat...  No one would have placed this animal in front of the second place. But !!!!!!  You're right though we'regoing off topic...

>She is not interested in showing her !!

How disappointing for the bitch's breeder. :( What a compliment your friend could pay if she showed the dog even two or three times and did well. (I'm assuming the bitch's breeder shows her dogs so that at least your friend knows that the parents at least had been independently assessed by experts.) And of course whatever the bitch's outward qualities, there are all the tests for hereditary conditions to be passed as well.

>When I speak about coming second place to a dog which is inferior I think I know what I am talking about !

You're passed to judge at championship level in your breed, are you?

Don't think that I ever said that I was a Championship judge in any post which I have made.   I indicated that a Championship judge commented on the quality of the bitch.  I do think I know my breed well Jeangenie !!!  I think you just proved my point for answering to this post in the first instance.  I think there is not enough simple and positive "ADVICE" given to novice breeders in this part of the forum.  Some of the replies are much too agressive !!

> I do think I know my breed well Jeangenie !!!

If you're advising people to breed their pets then I certainly hope you do! My point was that a someone passed to judge a breed at Championship level should know what they're talking about. However a specialist in another breed, however highly qualified, wouldn't necessarily know the finer points of a breed for their opinion to given much weight. ;)

No one spoke about this either !!

Was it not you who said:

>I would advise that owner to breed the bitch after helping her to research the line.

???

And why should a top quality bitch not be used in breeding ?  Who am I to tell the owner if she should show the dog, breed the dog, keep the dog on her knee etc etc etc ??  Let's not bugpick so much !!  Who is anyone to tell them that ?  Now let me clarify that before someone jumps in my hair again !!  Once again I say let's not be so agressive with these people !!

Unfortunately there are far too many litters bred by people who have neither the knowledge or welfare of their breed as a whole at heart, or even realise the implications of their actions on the dam, the pups, their owners, and the rescue statistics.  Is their any wonder that people on the forum are not overjoyed at the prospect of yet another ill considered litter.  the very basic nature of the questions asked tells us that it should not happen.

I have a numerically small breed and really want to encourage any potential new breeder in my breed if they have the dedication and responsibility to join the ranks of breed custodians.  Sadly for the breed there are few people that are in a position to breed and take the responsibility for the lifelong welfare of the pups bred.

Sadly in our throw away society with marriage breakdowns being 50% even the best new owners circumstances change and force re-homing.  At the same time potential and existing breeders are also subject to the same social forces, few now have land and property to keep many dogs,a nd having to take back dogs for re-homing may be beyond their means.  I know full well that if I had to take back a male it would have to be castrated right away, and that I need to keep spare capacity in my home for looking after a returned dog or bitch.  If they are disagreeable or poorly socialised this could cause huge disruptions to my life and that of my dogs.

Most people who consider breeding a litter with no in depth knowledge see only the rearing of pups to 8 weeks and the amount the pups will sell for.  They really do not see themselves as responsible beyond the point of sale, and will often say but I'm not really a breeder.  they also cannot give the support needed to the new owners, making re-homing even more likely if one of the owners has problems.

I agree with you Barbara but once again I clarify.  My whole point for answering on this whole topic is the fact that as far as I am concerned there are too many agressive answers to novice breeders.  Everyone was a novice breeder in the past and we all had to learn.  Some learnt from parents, some from other breeders, some from the show ring etc etc etc.  I don't personally think that the first answer to all of these questions about breeding can be "YOU NEED TO SHOW HER " because it's not always the case and as I said who are we all to tell someone what they have to do.  There is only one thing in this life which we all have to do and we all know what that is !!

I have to disagree any Novice should have to go to shows or trials and show their bitch or dog, as they are not going to meet the people or see the dogs they need to see to acquire any knowledge, as books will be useful for the mechanics,a nd even breed books are likely to be out of date as soon as they go to print, useful for historical knowledge if the in depth kind, hardly useful at all if the kind that is a general dog book with just a breed specific chapter.

Also without the network of other breeders etc they will be all alone when it comes to any problems they encounter and be in a far more difficult position to home a returned dog.  Such a dog is usually re homed through ones network of breed contacts, other breeders who have had an owner loose a dog and wanting something older etc.

What these potential breeders need to realise they are part of a breed as a whole and their actions can have repercussions throughout that breed for good or ill.

Do they want their stock to add to the quality in the gene pool or do they just want to produce potential puppy farm fodder?

Why does she need to show her ?  She is not interested in showing her !!  Jeangenie  not everyone wants to show their dog !!

Well one reason is that by NOT doing so they give a GREAT excuse to all back yard breeders and puppy farmers who also are "not interested in showing"......... So Joe Public has no way of working out whether a breeder is a good breeder or not. Using showing (or field trials or whatever) as a bench mark is a great start.

I also doubt very much whether somebody who does not know something as basic as the age to breed at, would know if their dogs were good enough.

>For Larsen4 - have them checked on hip scores etc by your vet

A GP vet cannot hip score a dog

>A GP vet cannot hip score a dog

Ummmm ... surely this is incorrect? I choose to go to someone who hip scores day in, day out - but vets have always hip scored dogs as far as I'm aware, and haven't seen any change in this?

M.

I am in agreement with you Lily.

>but vets have always hip scored dogs as far as I'm aware

No, vets take the x-rays, but the scoring is done by a KC/BVA panel.

Yes, thinking further as I re-booted my dead PC(!) I realised that Moonmaiden means that hip scoring is not just a matter of a visit to the vet and a diagnosis that hips look OK. However, it came across - to me, at any rate - that you can't visit your own vet for hip scoring. Wouldn't want to discourage anyone from having it done by thinking they can't to to a standard vet.

M.

So your vet x rays your dogs & scores them & then it's recorded by the BVA ? Is this something new as far as I was aware GP vets submitted X rays to the BVA panel to scrutinise & score? When did this change to all vets doing the scoring ? A bit odd as I've booked my two collies to be X rayed & the plates submitted to the BVA in January & Jill(the vet I use)never mentioned that she will be doing the scoring & as we are friends I think she would have mentioned it

As clarified in my post above, I now realise what you meant. However, this didn't come across in your original post and I'm familiar with hip scoring. A little clarification for the original poster would have been useful.

M.

Looking into your post now moonmaiden I see what you are saying.  I wasn't too clear about the hipscoring bit when I quickly wrote my post.  Basically yes of course the Hipscoring - the actual examination of the xrays is done by the panel and the actual issuing of the certificate is done by the BVA.  But the actual xray can be done, and normally is in most people's cases, by their own vet. 

I did not mention X raying I simply wrote that GP vets cannot Hip Score dogs, they can X ray but they cannot hip score, so I was not misleading anyone. I don't have my Hip  X rays done by my vet & I use a vet who has probably done more Hip X rays than most of us have had hot dinners & has never had any returned for any reason & she is also an extremely good reader of plates as she has a keen interest in HD & dogs

>So your vet x rays your dogs & scores them & then it's recorded by the BVA ? Is this something new as far as I was aware GP vets submitted X rays to the BVA panel to scrutinise & score? When did this change to all vets doing the scoring ? A bit odd as I've booked my two collies to be X rayed & the plates submitted to the BVA in January & Jill(the vet I use)never mentioned that she will be doing the scoring & as we are friends I think she would have mentioned it

I know I should have better things to do with my life than seethe over a post on a forum, and am not going to get into an argument over it, but I am going to respond to this unnecessarily sarcastic post.

Would it really have been so difficult to say in your original post that 'GP vets can take hip x-rays, but the scoring is done by the BVA'?

Apologies that even though I am very familiar with the hip score process, thank you very much, I still felt your post needed slight clarification to those who are reading and are not familiar with it. Far more people will read and learn from your posts if they don't feel they've been spoken at like a two year old.

M.

Vets X-ray dogs they do not Score them.  The x-rays are sent off to a paenl of experts where three of them assess each plate.

Showing is not the be all and end all if you already know your breed well, but you cannot learn about your breed in isolation, and anyone respected who breeds and is not active showing or working, has been at some point.

When looking for stud dogs and what they are producing where would you look if not in the ring or field.

Both are arenas allowing stock to be compared, how else would you compare stock and assess the pups produced by sires and dams?

People asking basic questions on a forum like this will fall into the category of people needing to learn and learn and learn some more, so they need to mix with the people and dogs.

An experienced knowledgeable breeder may be able to assess an unshown animal and decide it is of the quality to include in their breeding program, but where would they see such a dog or know of it's existence, only by having perhaps bred it themselves, or it having been sired by their male or that of Friends and happen to get feedback or a visit from the owner.  In the normal course of events they would not know of this super animals existence.

I am certain that there are far better dogs and bitches living out lives as purely pets, but no-one in the know is able to see their quality.  My best bitch was one I had back at 8 1/2 months.  I knew she was the best pup in the litter, but I wasn't ready to keep her from the litter wanting to wait until her Mums second litter to space the dogs out more.  Fate intervened and luckily enough she hadn't been spayed.

The most harmful breeding  to breeds is not so much the puppy farmer, but the majority of litters bred by people who may be well meaning but have no knowledge, no health screening etc.  For example the overall hip status in GSD' and Labradors and other popular  other breeds stays as bad as eve.  The best breeders do make progress, but the majority are still breeding without scoring and things never improve.

On the other hand a breed less popular like the Irish setter by working together and the use of DNA science have managed to eliminate one genetic condition from registered stock, and are able to ensure no PRA affected puppies are born, and eventually when the number of clear animals is so wide they will be able to eliminate it completely.

Spugsy wrote <And I personally do not think that for example a dog who has huge patches coming out of his coat can be placed before a dog who has a perfect coat.  This dog with the huge patches coming out of his coat has to be considered as not to standard I think !!!  When I speak about coming second place to a dog which is inferior I think I know what I am talking about ! >

When one enters two or three months' ahead of time, one does not know at what stage of a moult a dog might be.   Coat, although an important prerequsite to a good dog, is not everything - and in fact loss of coat can better show off the conformation beneath it - which is of paramount importance.

It sounds as if you came learned this the hard way.

Hi Loki...  Just to close this part of the discussion I wasn't talking about a moult.  

It would be interesting to know why this person wishes to breed their dogs? I feel that it is possible to improve on a dog/bitch by deuditious (Sp) breeding but I find it a little hard to understand why one would wish to do this if they had no interest in working or showing. Is the person expecting to sell to the working/showing public or to pet homes only? If this person wishes to have another pup herself why not just get one from a reputable breeder, it would be much cheaper and far less hard work without the worry about new homes and responsibility for the pups for the rest of their lives. I agree that it is not always the top quality bitches that produce the best pups but a novice would not be the best person to judge this (I know I wouldn't be).
I think the bottom line in this post is that most of us on this forum are concerned about the amount of pups bred for the commercial market. They may well be excellent specimens but are the homes being vetted properly...is the OP ensuring her friend is a RECPONSIBLE Breeder as opposed to a good breeder?
I feel the intentions of this person need to be examined, and I think the replies on this forum are only expressing concern for the resulting litters. It may sound harsh but in this life there are thousands of unwanted pups of all breeds languishing in rescue due to being bred with little thought as to the market they would be available for.
Most show/working owners would not obtain new stock from someone who was not very knowledgeable within their chosen breed, so no matter how good the resulting pups if this person is unknown in the dog world the pups will only ever be sold to Joe public.

I'm closing this thread as I doubt the OP will be able to follow the various arguments that are now taking place. To the person who started this thread, as others have suggested, read the threads pinned to the top of this board and then contact your Breed Club for further advice. If you don't know how to contact your nearest Breed Club, then select your breed from the list on the Kennel Club website HERE then scroll to the end of the breed standard page to find contact details for the clubs for your particular breed.