Can anyone offer advise. I have a 3 year bitch who was came onto heat on 21st August. She went to the male on 5 September, again on 10th. We didnt see a tie, the owner of the stud went out for an hour and when she came back there was a clear thick fluid on the floor in the room the dogs were in. My dog has never showed any signs of pregnancy apart from staying a little swelled in the vulva. The last few days her teats seem to be getting fuller. Her nipples are not any bigger but the actual area under them feels fuller and has got slightly fuller to the touch over the last three days. She has started to go behind the tv cabinet through the night. I have now blocked this off. She has no other signs of pregnancy. I called my vet but their scanner is broke. I cant feel any movement other than a "gassy" tummy. Could she be pregnant?

Mod edit: Name of breed removed

Maybe she had a slip mating? the breeder left them for an hour? nice...

Thats my thoughts excatly. I did express my disappointment  at this. It seems to be the time they got down too it.! Can you explain a slip maiting is this where they dont tie but still mate?

It is pretty irresponsible of the dogs owner to go off and just leave them to it. Doesnt she realise that both her dog and your bitch could have been injured? Werent you present?

It is pretty irresponsible of the dogs owner to go off and just leave them to it. Doesnt she realise that both her dog and your bitch could have been injured? Werent you present?

I was present the whole of the first visit, on the second visit I trusted her enough to leave my bitch ther with her. She had no other dogs and no children. So I thought she seeemed responsible as she has studded her dog for a couple of years, and I have seen photos and read references from other bitch owners. Had I thought she might leave them I would have stayed. But I understand why you asked.

I dont want to seem that I am being awful, but the fact that she has no children doesnt really matter. Have you known her for long? I wouldnt leave my bitches alone for a mating under any circumstances as it is a pretty scary time for them and I believe they need their owner for stability and encouragement. I have used studs whose owners I know, trust and believe in, but I just couldnt leave them with someone else to be mated. She had the references and photos? She could have written them herself It sounds to me like you have answered an ad for a stud dog, which is really not the way to go. Is the dogs pedigree compatible with your bitches, or are you just going by what his owner says? Anyway, what is done is done, and you now need to find out if she is in whelp so you can now do your best for her.

>I was present the whole of the first visit, on the second visit I trusted her enough to leave my bitch there with her. She had no other dogs and no children. So I thought she seemed responsible as she has studded her dog for a couple of years, and I have seen photos and read references from other bitch owners. Had I thought she might leave them I would have stayed. But I understand why you asked.

As an Ex stud dog owner(my stud dogs are now at the Bridge) I would never dream of leaving a dog & bitch alone for a minute let alone an hour. Especially a maiden bitch like yours. Sometimes I did not have the bitch owners there as two of my dogs were GSDs & GSD bitches can be difficult to get mated if their owners are around, but I always had someone else(at least one other person)there. The stud dog owner can only sign the KC form if they see their dog mate the bitch, which is why you have to be there all the time.

Your vet should have been able to hear the heartbeats of any puppies by stethoscope from around 6 weeks if memory serves me right

and I have seen photos and read references from other bitch owners.

What references from other bitch owners?  Think that is one of the strangest things I have ever heard. I don't know a soul who has written references for stud work.  What did they say? just interested to know what would be written in a reference.

If I was you, I'd go to a different vet who has a working scanner so you will know for certain.

i have worked out she would be due this weekend.. well monday. When I spoke to my vet he offered to check her over again. Is this worth the stress to her or should I just wait untill monday and take her then if she still has these signs. I cant feel any movement but Im not prodding her just resting my hand on her tummy when she is relaxed. She is very settled. I did have her checked out at what would have been day 30 if she is pregnant but he couldnt see any pups. He did say though that scans are not always relaible and even if she doesnt show any signs that she could stil give birth.

If this took place on the 5th, she is due today. If on the 10th, she is due on the 12th (Monday). I would have thought you would have seen more signs than you describe. You really need to find out if she is in whelp. Go to another vet who will be able to tell you for sure. 5 days between visits to the stud is a long time. Did you get a mating the first time? Have you got everything ready just in case?

Yes. Everything is ready. I have the book of the bitch and I think ive got everything sorted. The vet is also aware of the dates and i have the out of hours number in my phone ready, as i know that dogs dont always whelp between the hours of 9.00 and 5.30..!! I have another dog who is as from yeaterday with my sister as I didnt think it was fair on my "pregnant" bitch to have to worry about her being round her pups. When my other girl was here she was sniffing at her back end a lot.

I feel very sorry for you that this has happened, I won't repeat everyone elses distain at this stud owner, it is just totally disgusting behaviour and of course has left you not knowing what has or hasn't happened. I'm also mortified that your vet has been no help!

Please go to another vet, you need to know whether she is having a phantom, not even pregnant, or whether you are expecting a litter, I agree she should be showing much more signally of pregnancy than she is, but............. there is always the exception! A vet will certainly be able to scan her now and see pups, please just take her otherwise your life is on hold for the next few days it is better to know and just to check if she is in whlep that the pups are all properly positioned for birth and she is not needing a C-Section.  As it is her first litter, (possibly) you don't know how she acts and her signals at present so just get that scan done for peace of mind. :-)

with the attention of the other canine in the house I would be wanting to know if girl was in whelp or had a Pyometra brewing. 

I would also have wanted to confirm pregnancy for people on my waiting list who may be waiting in vain and could have been passed on to other breeders to add to their lists.

I'm not going to comment on the stud dog/mating, except to say, as someone who has bred their first litter this year from a maidne bitch, who is of exceptional temprement, I was quite suprised at her reaction to the stud dog on her first visit. She was still muzzled initially for the second mating, although only very briefly, and the muzzle came off both times as soon as they tied. She was reasonably co-operative, just a little scared, but it still took myself, the stud dog owner and her assistant to hold her the first time until they had tied. I was very lucky in that the stud dog owner has 30 plus years of experience, and knows what she is doing. It gave me huge piece of mind to have that experience behind me. She also explained ot me that if the dogs broke apart while they were tied, permenant damage could be done to the stud dog, rendering him useless at stud in the future, so I wonder why any breeder with an exceptional stud (an dlets face it, they should all be exceptional) would risk injury to her own dog, if nothing else.

Anyway, good luck with your bitch if she is in whelp. Constructive advice I can offer would be to say not to leave her for a minute from now on. Also, in Book Of The Bithc, it does not mention Waters Breaking very much. If your bitches waters break, you wil see fluid leaking out, just like in humans, and that usually means they will whelp in the next 3-4 hours.

I hope all goes well for you. I personally felt a lot bette rof knowing my bitch was scanned in whelp, it meant I knew wat was going to happen, and I hadn't wasted hundreds of pounds on a whelping box and equipment.

Once again, good luck, I hope all goes well for you and your bitch.

>If this took place on the 5th, she is due today.

The 5th would have been her 15th day, the 10th her 20th day. Not unheard of for a bitch to be ready that late, but unusual, so you'd have to take the first mating as most likely. (Also can't quite work out the five days between visits?)

M.

Just one point. I thought a mating has to be witnessed in order to register pups?

Nicky
xx

Just one point. I thought a mating has to be witnessed in order to register pups?

can well see your point ;)......but the owner of the sire states he/she is the registered owner of the sire, gives the name and kc number, and signs to say his dog did the mating on the dates both sire and dam owners state on this form. the owner of the bitch signs this also, but their job is to put all the details on, pups names etc. If done online, the breeder (dam owner and affix holder) will put in all these details, the Kc will confirm with the stud dog owner that these details are correct by letter.

edited to add.....it should be witnessed, but some people (not those responsible breeders on here) can well leave a dog and bitch alone and not actually 'witness the deed' but they do have to sign to say the mating took place....:rolleyes: regardless.

I wrote on here a few days ago about my dog that is possibly pregnant. I got some really good advise, which I followed up on. I took her to the vets and got her checked over again. He said he couldnt feel anything other than a gasy tummy, but she could be carrying further up, he offered to xray her as she should be far enough along for any pups to show up. I didnt want to put her through that so I brought her home safe in the knowledge that this was either a phantom or the real thing and not that she is poorly. I have set up a whelping bed for her in a quite corner. She is happy to sleep on it. Today she has been very sleepy, has soiled twice in the house...not like her.. i have just been sitting with her and I noticed that her teats have gone even more fuller feeling. I then looked and seen that her vulva looks a little fuller and is not completly closed. it is slightly open a tiny bit near the tip of it, I gave her nipples a squeeze and  clear fliud come from them, which I am presuming is milk. If she got pregnant on the day of her second mating which was 10/09 then she will be due tomorrow. I still cant feel any movement but her tummy sounds very gassy. Could the fact that her vulva is very slightly open... and I mean only by 2-3millimeters... a sign that she is coming into labour. She isnt panting or digging she is just a bit lazy today.

Hope I am not going to be unpopular for my bluntness!!

But I he offered to xray as she should be far enough along for any pups to show up. I didnt want to put her through that so I brought her home safe in the knowledge

If you had taken her all the way there why not just get the X ray done?? What I am scrathing my head at is I can't imagine why any vet would not just quicky put the stethoscope on the side of her and immeditately tell if he/she could hear any heart beats, it is very simple and very clear to hear especially if she is that far on.  I think out of safety to insure the bitch is OK that is the least that either of you should suggest.

I quite agree with you Blue - if you are going to have a litter from your bitch - in my very humble opinion - you should be prepared to spend money in order to ensure a satisfactory outcome for both the bitch and the potential litter.  Breeding isn't easy and shouldn't be undertaken lightly.  I hope for the bitches sake that if she is in whelp she delivers safely - but I would definately want to know what the situation was as soon as possible.

The vet did listen to her. He gave her a really good check over and he said he couldnt be 100% sure that she wasn't. I have asked for advise here and although I know you are thinking of my dog and her welfare, I feel like I am being judged here. All I wanted was some advise and to know if anyone has been through similar. I take the advise Im given on here very seriously and even read up on this site about bying a puppy and what I should look for etc before I bought her. So please can anyone just let me know if they have gone through anything similar and what was the outcome. Is the fact that her vulva is slightly open a tiny bit anything to go by, as she defo has milk and I know that with phantom pregnancies this can be so. She is cleaning herself a lot more and last night she was constanly cleaning herself. I have called the vet as I was worried about infection, he told me to get a tissue and gently wipe her, I did this and there was no staining.

It's very common even for bitches who've never been mated to produce milk after a season, so on its own that's no indication of pregnancy, and can be ignored. The vulva being slightly open is meaningless as well - my elderly bitch who has never been mated and was spayed about eight years ago has this.

The constant cleaning of herself, however, is a sign that something is troubling her, but whether it's an infection or anything else it's impossible to tell over the net. Keep a careful eye on her and don't leave her alone, day or night, just in case.

Sorry I can't be of more help.

The vulva being slightly open is meaningless as well - my elderly bitch who has never been mated and was spayed about eight years ago has this.

Thank you. My dog's vulva has only just opened over the last two days, vet says no infection but to keep an eye on it, hence the tissue. It has also swelled up more in the last day or so. This is why  I think she may be.

I think I would find a vet with a working scanner, if she's NOT pregnant and you're treating her as though she is, it's going to take her a long time to get over it.....if she IS pregnant and it's only a singleton pup, she may need a section, if you leave it too long you could end up with serious problems, a dead pup and mum having to be spayed....if not worse.

My girl was scanned two days before her due date, she had a singleton, labour never started and the pup was born by c-section on day 64 from 1st mating, thankfully both mum and pup were fine......but I wouldn't leave it any longer.

Edited to add, if her vulva is slightly open this may be due to the fact that she's constantly cleaning herself

have you been feeding her up as if she were expecting? i hope so!

However if she isn't, that would be the wrong thing to do. That's why it's important to know.

Sorry Tracey3UK,

Trouble is - it's easy to forget how naive and il-informed most of us were when we had our first litter. Very few of us haven't made mistakes and ... so what... so have you, join the club.
The size and shape of the vulva in the pregnant bitch, varies so much. Boxers look like they have an elephant trunk but Cavaliers look barely big enough to pass a mouse.
If your bitch is having a tiny litter then you probably only need to feed her usual ( hopefully well balanced diet). If it proves to be a phantom pregnancy then it wont take too much time to gether back in shape.
Be positive, if it doesn't work out this time, think how much better prepared if you decide to try again. I bet you'll be there for the mating next time.
Good luck.

Thank you for your help. I started her on puppy food 2 weeks ago. As this is what the vet said to do, she is stil very fit and but I think it helps that  she was fit before I mated her. The thing with her vulva is that is has gone bigger over the last two days and only opened slightly yesterday. I didnt know if this would happen in a phantom. also her tummy has gone very full, and it is firmer. I have sat for a long time today with my hand on her tummy and I keep feeling flutters or bubbling and earlier this evening I though I felt what seems like a rolling motion, but this just could be wishfull thinking.

I'm not sure how far along in her pregnancy she would be, please remind me.
If she's between the 8th and 9th week it should be possible to feel even a singleton. When she's sound asleep, sit with her and place an open palm firmly but gently on one side of the fullest part of her tum. Be patient... with a tiny litter it could take some time to locate and be lucky enough to be at the correct part of the flank. It feels like a puppies rolling over or if you're lucky a little elbow or nose may track it's way along under the skin.  
Look out for the pups poking you from their side, it's so exciting.... so close yet so far.
When I have a bitch carrying a big litter it's like a sack with a rugby match going on inside.

Often pregnant bitches have a sticky clear mucoid fluid comming from the vulva, does she have this? Ive never seen this in a phantom.
Keep us informed wont you?

she is due today if we go by the second mating,but the vet said this is only a guide..something to do with eggs meeting sperm upto so manydays after the mating.
I think she is sick to death of me feeling her tummy, shw sleeps right next to me and I have often thought that i have felt movement but only slight and if i move my hand i cant find it again...
I havent seen any mucus hanging  but last night she was cleaning her self for quite a while and her back end was wet. Not smelly or staining just wet.

Hi tracey.  I too think that the "rolling" which you felt is puppy movement.  Keep her well observed and watch for all of the signs of labour.  Panting, digging, hiding, emptying of her bowel(before she gives birth she will completely empty herself - so she could continuously be going out to do her business).  Take her temperature at least twice per day and keep note of the temperature.  Look for any vast decreases in temp - you should see a vast decrease to under 37 degrees.  If you do see this then she will normally start labour within 24-48 hours. 

All bitches are different as are all women when they go into labour.   Some will complain and cry out as the contractions occur.  Others will sleep through them.  My last litter was produced by a maiden bitch whose only  sign that she could be going into labour was hiding herself under the bed covers.  Very slight panting - nothing abnormal as with some of my others.  No digging - eating a little less than normal but she did that throughout her pregnancy etc.  Then I didn't see her around me for about 10 minutes.  I had seen her going into the bedroom and went to look there.  And there she was on the bed pushing on the first pup.  Actually I entered the bedroom put on the light and she had already delivered the head.  I have to say that I wasn't expecting it whatsoever.  She didn't even make a sound and only very slight indications that she was even going into labour.  Only negative point from it was that the cover on the bed was completely ruined.  She went on to deliver a total of 5 healthy pups. 

So as I say keep your eye on her and don't let her out of your sight.  Good luck and keep us informed.

We are going the vets at 3.10 today so I will know more later today, she is still showing all signs and Im getting more worried now. The vet said she can go untill 69 days without concern but I want her checking. There may just be one in there, there may be none, I will just feel better if I know she is ok regardless of this being for real or a phantom. I will keep you all informed.

Hang on in there girl, good luck.

Back from the vets. No puppies but more importantly no infection. Thank you all for your comments and advise.

At least now you know :) :)
Still keep an eye on her just in case, but now cut the food nback down, take away the welping things and keep her occupied to get her over the phantom :)
Lea :) :)

I'm sure you're feeling rather flat at the moment but there's always next time and just think.... you'll be so much more prepared.
Keep your chin up and get those breed books out and start reading!!

A bit yeah, but she is ok and that's just as important. There is always next time. Although the stress of a phantom is bad enough, god help me when its the real thing..!!!

Ah but when you get the babies it's blissful.

i would just like to say that in my opinion it is very irresponsible to breed you bitch one day and not repeat the mating again until 5 days later. if you do mate her twice it should be done the very next day, as with five days in between each mating you will not know when the bitch caught, therefore if she did catch the first day, if something was wrong you wouldnt expect it as you would be waiting for the later due date by which time something could be drastically wrong. this happened to someone that lives up the road from me he didnt know when the pups were due and in the end he had to take the bitch to the vets and it turned out that the pups were dead inside her and the bitch herself had a nasty infection

But isnt it the same as doing 3 matings one every other day???
Dont most breeders do repeat matings over a period of 4 or 5 days so they dont know when they have taken??
Lea :) :)

i cant see why you would need to do repeat matings over 4/5 days isnt two enough? it certainly is for us

I would not as I dont breed. I am just going from what I have heard and learnt over the years,
Am sure an experienced breeder will be along soon to confirm or not what I have said :)

Lea :)

also would i be right in saying that you first bred her 15 days into heat and then again at 20 days? that is far too long to wait until you mate. we always mate on the 10th and 11th day of heat and are never dissapointed

Bitches can be very different in the times they ovulate and I have had pups born to bitches who will stand to be mated on day 7or 8 and also from ones who won't entertain the dog til day 12/13 or 14. We usually mate twice and take the 1st day as the middle day, then we watch and wait, some bitches will be early anyway and some late, dependant on litter size and various other factors.
All are different, I have mated bitches on day 10 then gone back every two days until day 14. The bitch will take within the 48 hour period after ovulation and if watched very carefully as we all should the breeder should be able to see if there is a problem. However vigilant you are though the odd thing can happen to take you by surprise:.......
I had a GSD bitch produce her 1st litter of 13 a week early with no warning and no help, we had settled her into her whelping quarters a fortnight prior to her due date as we usually do and she settled comfortably in the lounge in her box, the day she produced she ate all her feeds up had a nice long walk, went to bed at 11pm and I was awoken at 7am by my daughter who said she had had her pups!!!  We lived above a pub at the time with all rooms on one floor and she just got on and did the job herself with no fuss. Not a peep out of her and a first litter to boot! All 13 survived with out problems and she even fostered another six born to the bitch of the stud dog owner who unfortunately died during a nasty C Sect. We called her our Supermum and she certainly was.
I do think a gap of five days a little unusual but have known bitches who will stand for the dog for 9 or 10 days, especially experienced girls who have whelped before...they seem to get a bit TARTISH!!!!
I think the watchword is to be vigilant and most will soon tell you if there is a problem. if in doubt and ultrasound will soon tell you if there are pups in distress.

>we always mate on the 10th and 11th day of heat and are never dissapointed

No two bitches are alike. For my last two litters (same bitch) we mated her on day 13 for her first litter (the soonest she'd stand) and on days 18 and 20 for her second litter (again, the soonest she'd stand). She was very willing when we did mate her, and the matings produced very healthy puppies. If we'd forced matings on her any earlier it would have been rape - and that I will never do.

well if that works for you then fair enough but every one we know mates on day 10 and again on day 11

>every one we know mates on day 10 and again on day 11

Even if the bitch isn't standing willingly?

When I have a bitch who's read the books then I'll mate 'by the book'. Until then I reckon the bitch knows best. They aren't machines.

Hayley123,

Tracey3UK was probably not iresponsible... just inexperienced and not very prepared.
Your sweeping statement "every one we know mates on day 10 and again on day 11" rathers shows your inexperience too!
Oh .......if only it were as simple as that.

I totally agree - I have mated one of my bitches as late as day 17 with success.  Next time she may well be ready on 10 or 11 who knows - we'll have to wait and see what signs she's giving off.  We all learn by experience - but wouldn't it make life easy if we all took our bitches on days 10 & 11.