hello again,
following all your previous good advice, i now need a little bit more.  i have previously posted about our 11 wk old sbt, Roxy,  play nipping and biting and quite rightly was told this is normal puppy behaviour. However she is now starting to snap and growl and will not stop.  Using the 'No' command makes no difference and in fact seems to make matters worse.  This behaviour happens at all different times, both when she is excitable after a play and sometimes when she is just having a (rare) cuddle.  I have tried leaving the room when she is like this but she doesnt seem to care and will carry on some other distructive behaviour. 

Is it possible that this is a sign of a bad temperament?  can you tell a bad temperament at this early age?  Or again is this just normal puppy behaviour? 

We have booked her in for puppy behaviour/training classes which uses the clicker but this does not start for another couple of weeks yet.  She is very very excitable puppy and is not the sort to enjoy a 'quiet' time when she is awake, it is either play/nip/(now snap) or sleep.  i cannot get her to have any 'calm' time when she is awake and am hoping that the training will help this as I am sure a little bit of 'calm' time when she is awake will help her too? . 

any advice you have will be great
Thanks

The way that adult dogs deal with puppies at this stage in their lives is to get up & walk away & ignore the puppy completely(well that's what my adults have done especially the bitches) I personally remove myself completely(ie out of the room with a closed door between)& wait until the noise subsides & when I return I praise quietly & calmly.

My Rjj has never nipped, snapped or growled at all, he is the first dog I have had in nearly 50 years like this, why ? because he was with his mum until he was 13 weeks & she taught him his manners by doing just what I described above. She isn't the biggest of bitches, but is the alpha bitch of the breeder & rules his other dogs despite her being not the eldest either

You have to be very consistant & do not accept any behaviour that is not what you want. I don't just the word No at all & using T Touch teach my dogs a calm down command

http://www.jersey.net/~mountaindog/berner1/bitestop

Wonderful, you have a bitey pup and now you can teach her BITE INHIBITION :D :D  which will be far more useful to you both in the long run :)  the link above shows you how to do this.  She has a better chance of learning this than a pup who hardly bothers :)  The real key in consistency - the whole family have to understand and implement it all the time ;)

thanks to a previous post and all your advice, we have been teaching bite inhibition which is working to an extent with the play biting but that is not the problem.  the problem is the sudden lunging, snapping and growling.  we are using the same technic that we use for the bite inhibition which is 'No' but that doesnt seem to stop the lunging and snapping. 

Thanks for your comments moonmaiden which i have tried.  when i leave her in a room she does quieten down but only because she has decided to chew the sofa/kitchen units instead.  so if i come back in and praise her does that say to her that i am praising her for being quiet and chewing things she shouldnt?  My partner has suggested that when she does the lunging/snapping/growling we should put her in her crate where she cannot destory anything she should for a 'time out' - reading other posts on here people have suggested not to do this as it then uses the crate as a form of punishment area????? 

what do you mean by T Touch moonmaiden??
thanks

T Touch is a massage technique that releases the dogs endorphins which calm the dog/cat etc. It calms & relaxes & help build the bond between pet & owner

Using the crate as a punishment area is using negative reinforcement. By removing yourself you are removing the means the dog has to be rewarded for misbehaviour(even the word no etc means the dog is interacting with you & this is always a reward to dogs, even if the interaction is a telling off. When you return & reward the dog it is not being rewarded for it's not the previous behaviour you are positively rewarded but the last behaviour. Dogs do not have the same perception of doing wrong we do & this is why timing of reward/correction needs to be good, you reward either as the dog exhibits the behaviour you require or has just behaved as you wanted

What is your reaction when she lunges. 

I expect you move away quickly, she has in that way instigated a chase game, as i BET SHE COMES AT YOU FOR SOME MORE? 

The Word No is used too much,a nd after all it isn't something the pup will actually understand.  Use a disapproving growly sound like Uh ah.  Another dog would growl if the pup went too far in play.

It is very difficult to keep absolutely still when being chewed on, but that is what is needed.  If she is doing it when being cuddled, drop her like a hot potato, but getting up and putting yourself out of reach.

Is she doing this when she is tired?  are you over stimulating her.  Also I would be inclined not to let her have the run of the place until she has more self control regarding appropriate chewing when not supervised, so leaving her would mean leaving her in the most puppy proofed room, where she spends most of her time.  Before she has developed a taste for specific items look around at puppy level and use bitter spray on any corners and things she might chew.  In my kitchen that would e the edges of the cupboards corners of the appliances, the skirting etc. 

If done before they get into the chewing it will deter them from starting.  re apply the spray at least weekly.

thanks for the link moonmaiden, i will give that a go. 

@ Brainless, yes i do move away quickly...natural instinct and i can see that that is a game in itself.  i will try my best not to move away immediately.  there is no patten for when she does it, as i say it may be in the middle of playing, end of playing or having a cuddle.  by reading some posts on here over the last couple of days, i think we do overstimulate her with play and are now conscious of reducing playtime and trying to learn just before she has had to much.  however like i said i have trouble trying to 'calm' her and so she ends up overstimulating herself...is that posssible? I will have a look at the ttouch technic for calming.  She has the run of the downstairs, kitchen hallway and frontroom, but if she moves from one room to another we follow her to make sure she doesnt chew...is that right?  the kitchen would be the best puppy proof room but we spend the majority of our time in the front room.  perhaps if she starts i should remove her from the front-room to the kitchen and leave her on her own for a while???

our local pet shop recommended a spray for furniture which we have used,,,,,she has enjoyed licking it!!!! they told me that the bitter apple spray was to stop her biting her own fur or a wound??
thanks

You need to get her into the habit of chilling.  Try to keep your voice low, and your movements slow.  when you are petting her move your hands very slowly, or stop if she reacts and start stroking again when she relaxes.

Do not play games for more than a few minutes and end them by walking away ending the game when you choose, so she learns that interactions are on your terms.

Something a lot of people forget too, praise your puppy for being relaxed and calm. When my puppies calmly settle I quietly and slowly stroke them a couple times and softly praise them. Nothing excited as you want to keep them settled. My dogs are excellent at just quietly relaxing anywhere I take them because that's when they get my attention. They don't get it for jumping all over me like a loon (unless of course we're playing).

It's easy to forget a quiet, well behaved dog; make it worth their while to be that way. :)

yeah i think helping her learn to chill will help us all, i mean i know puppies are bundles of fun and want to play but constant hyperactivity surely cant be good for her.  i do try to praise her when she finally lays down but any hint of a stroke or a soft word if she is not fully relaxed will have her up nipping again - so i have tended to keep very quiet the last few days, and altho it works in that she falls asleep it means that she isnt getting the credit for 'calming down' so i will try to get back to soft stokes (t touch) and soft voices.

perhaps this shows that she is being over-stimulated and perhaps this isnt helping with the snapping then????  as i am sure the snapping/lunging and growling isnt aggressive (she is not curling her lip), i think perhaps it is more a play thing???

It is just like toddlers when they become overwrought and they kick and hit.  Does she have structured nap times?  May be an idea to have these periods where she goes in her crate or bed in the kitchen and must sleep, perhaps with a chew toy to wind down with.  Try and do this before she gets too strung out.

its all making sense now....i feel a bit stupid and irresponsible for her excitement now

she has  naps/sleeps throughout the day, and although these are at a similar time each day/nite it is only because she has worn herself out and not when we have requested a 'calm' period.  we tend to leave her where she sleeps too, rather than putting her in her crate which we only really use of a night time and when we are training her to be left on her own. 

i obviously need to limit the play time to avoid over excitement which will then hopefully lead to an easier 'calm' time. 

thanks

Good luck.

Do you have a kong for your puppy? They're great for keeping little bodies and minds occupied and out of trouble and can encourage quiet time spent with an appropriate toy. By stuffing a meal into one of those the puppy can take 5-10 minutes to eat. My pup had play time, kong in the cage (door can be left open) then fell asleep straight away. I only needed to pick the kong up and she went straight into her crate. Don't bother with the paste in a can, just stick your dog's food in the toy. You can search this forum for recipes as you add food to your puppy's diet.

I used a similar method, but structured mealtimes around the sleep period, so it went sleep, play, food, sleep etc. rather than feed then play then sleep :)  if pup has a nice full tum it's easier to settle them :) :)

she has a Kong but is not that interested in it. perhaps it is the filling that is not that interesting :rolleyes: i am going to make some of those liver bakes which should keep her interested. 
I thought she would be more settled after a meal time, but she seems to have more energy after a meal time. 
thanks for all of your replies, i will take them all on board and hopefully have some calm time with my roxy which may lead to no snapping.  and yeah the 'no' is  not working to stop the snapping, like you say it is still some sort of attention for her to get excited over.  i will hope that consistent ignoring and detatchment will also help

thanks

My friends  um is a dog psychologist/animal behaviourist, and when I got my puupy I sought her advice. I was tild that when the puppy does smething bad (I mean anything) that the mother would pick it up by the scruff and very gently shake it, then ignore it sned it away from you, as though you are sending it away from the pack, ignore for say half and hour, and if your strict enough this will work. It doesnt sound nice, and I hated doing it, but it worked for mine.

I have never had a bitch pick up a pup and shake it by the scruff, and never had them send their pups to Coventry for half an hour, a few seconds or minutes at most.  A pup like a small child has a short attention span and will not remember what the exclusion was about after such a long time.

Me neither B. A very strange "Behaviourist/Psychologist"to suggest this, i wonder what theory this comes from ?

My bitches have never shaken any of their pups by the scruff either. What they do do to chastise a misbehaving pup is to hold the pup's head (or muzzle if it's bigger) in their mouth very gently and softly growl. Result? Instant obedience.

Shaking by the scruff is what they do to kill prey, as is forcibly rolling them onto their back and pinning them down, and is understood to be a seriously aggressive action.