I have two male dogs, who are 7 months apart  in age.  They are now 20 months and 13 months old.   I have been watching them lately to try and work out who is top dog out of the two of them.  Does anyone have any ideas what to look for in their behaviour to assess who is top dog.    They do get on extremely well. 

Woo

There isn't always a top dog, it is all to do with characters, they may both have the same laid back character so there is no need. To be honest you are probably not noticing anything as the younger one takes the older as Alpha automatically, if the younger is very laid back and is not likely to ever challange, the older will allow the younger to do whatever he wants so you probably won't notice anything, but them getting along very well. :-)

I would be praying that they don't decide to sort out who is top dog. 

They are too close in age and if one decides to sort that out fights are likely, usually over privileges.  I would advise to ensure you give them no reasons for fighting.  By this I mean Toys,food, Girls coming into or just out of season, attention etc.

If they have very different personalities with one being the cocky one and the other never wanting to be the first to do things but always preferring to follow then you will possibly be OK.

You need to be an obvious leader yourself so that they now your do in charge that there is no room for even a second in command.

Any signs of conflict or one oneupmanship must be stopped firmly and figuratively you knock their heads together, so they have no time to be wondering who is better than the other.

Lots of training sessions where they each have to focus on you (lots of rewards of course), should get them into the right mental frame of mind.  they need to have too much to do so that they have no time for plotting World domination

You have 2 males together?
What is the breed?

Hopefully they will never decide who is top dog or you will have endless problems on your hands with trying to get one over each other.

I would never have 2 dogs together for this very reason ( And because of the breed I have) so cant offer much more help I'm afraid!

I have four males & no problems re fights etc & in the past have had multiple entire dogs & bitches living together & it was only the bitches that even fell out over dominance.

Dogs tend to sort themselves out just once & bitches it's a lifetime of battles irrespective of breed

Sorry Moonmaiden not true at all! :)

With Bullbreeds more then likely 2 males will fight at one end or another or you are extremely lucky if you havent encountered it ever in your life, I have.

My friend has a SBT and when he takes him round his friends ( Who also has his dad an SBT) Everythjing was fine at first, for 3 years infact, and then they had a massive fight which left both scarred. No warning just attacking each other all of a sudden and they had gotten on for around 3 years.
Then they were in a PetSmart, both dogs on leads, thought what you did, oh they have sorted it out and then BANG! they were at each others throats and fighting like mad, so they have to keep them seperated now as they will fight every time they see each other without hesitation.

Its not because theyre SBT's before anyone says it, any dogs who have fought properley will very rarely get on ever again.

I agree in not trusting Bullbreeds, some breeds even without a large age difference may find it difficult to accept another male, but it does depend on breed and temperaments.

Moonmaiden certainly is right in the fact that many of us have males together who live very happily together with no problems at all.

My mum for instance has always had a good mixture of male and female dogs never with incident, my brother has 2 entire GSD's with only 14 months apart (I know:rolleyes:) and they have never had an incident.

It depends very much on temperament and Brainless has outlined how to keep things sweet between two male dogs when the age gap is not correct. But many male dogs certainly do live very happily. :-)

>Sorry Moonmaiden not true at all!

So I am a liar then?

So my dogs fight do they ?  Funny that I have never seen them & I had three active stud dogs(& not Cavaliers BTW)at the same time & they never fought not even when our entire bitches were in season. Can you tell me when my dogs have been fighting as you seem to know more about my dogs & have never met them, than I do who lived & lives with them 24/7. Can I ask which of my dogs fought & when & what breeds they were ? I would like to know

I take it you have experience of living with breeds other than bullbreeds ? to make the sweeping statement that what I wrote was not true AT ALL

I have a friend who when he had Bull Terriers always had more than one male & they lived together, his bitches always had to be kept on their own or with a male, He had 20 dogs at one time.

I take it you have a lifetime in dogs for 50 + years to be such an expert in owning same sex dogs of ALL breeds

Moonmaiden chill out will you? :rolleyes:

Im saying that YOU said Males never fight and will soon it out in the end, and I said sorry not true at all!

You made a very wide sweaping statement that no males will fight regardless of breed, and if they do they will sort it out and its simply not true.
I was stating an expierance that happneed and yes the dogs did live together before my friend homed the young one and then he would go round as he was friends with the owner, so YES it does apply.

I dont care if youre dogs fight, as long as you are repsonsoble enough to rehome one should something happen then carry on, no one has the right to say what breeds you can or can not have but with bullbreeds its simply not true wuhat you say.

Yes I do have expierance of living with other dogs, Spaniels, mastiffs, bullmastiffs, border collies, that enough for you?
some people are lucky and they wont fight with bullbreeds, your friend is one of them, if you frequent bullbreed circles, as I do, you will see many dogs fight and some have to be rehomed and these are people who show as well, and please dont pull rank on me saying 50+ years, it counts for nothing if you dont know certain things on what is being spoken about everyone else didnt have a problem with what I said, just you, this is a forum and nothing should be taken personally.

> You made a very wide sweaping statement that no males will fight regardless of breed, and if they do they will sort it out and its simply not true.

Er no I didn't I wrote "Dogs tend to sort themselves out just once & bitches it's a lifetime of battles irrespective of breed " Nowhere did I put ALL breeds

>I was stating an expierance that happneed and yes the dogs did live together before my friend homed the young one and then he would go round as he was friends with the owner, so YES it does apply.

But when they started fighting they weren't living together so again this is not a case of two dogs living together fighting

> Yes I do have expierance of living with other dogs, Spaniels, mastiffs, bullmastiffs, border  collies, that enough for you

& were these multiple dogs of the same sex ?

>it counts for nothing if you dont know certain things on what is being spoken about everyone else didnt have a problem with what I said

I have experience of sorting out other people's problems, including their dogs fighting(same & different sexes)& IME it is females that far outnumber the males that fight & bitches do fight forever. I suggest you read all the posts in reply to yours

Cocker Spaniels are NOT a BULL breed   so applying your experience of a friend's bull breed dog fighting with his father owned by someone else isn't relative. Cockers are not normally dog aggressive & many people have multiple male cockers living in harmony even litter brothers(a breeder who ran on two brothers & kept them-they never had a cross word all their lives)

Years of experience in dogs I afraid does count as you encounter more dogs in 50 years than you can in 30 especially if you specialise in problem solving for over 40 of them

Irrespective of breed means all breeds does it not??

What you said means it doesnt matter what breed it is, males will sort out with one possible fight and females many, I agree on the females but will never believe in the males part, no matter how much expierance or abuse you throw at me!! :d

Yes my brother had many dogs of each sex as he bred, and my other brother bred the mastiffs and bull mastiffs, and I even said to HIM be careful with boys together! So im not just being awkward! :)

Were gonna have to agree to disagree on this one im afraid!! :)

I have to say male dogs seem to generally forgive and forget well the ones of people I know. Bitches never seem to make up.

>My friend has a SBT and when he takes him round his friends ( Who also has his dad an SBT) Everythjing was fine at first, for 3 years infact, and then they had a massive fight which left both scarred. No warning just attacking each other all of a sudden and they had gotten on for around 3 years.
>Then they were in a PetSmart, both dogs on leads, thought what you did, oh they have sorted it out and then BANG! they were at each others throats and fighting like mad, so they have to keep them seperated now as they will fight every time they see each other without hesitation

These dogs did not LIVE together though did they so what has their reaction to each other got to do with owning two dogs of the same breed ? you have lost me there

So cynical.

The dogs were father and son, so they did live together for a short time and then he was rehomed with my friend.

Cynical

They weren't living together when they started fighting QED

Couldn't agree with you anymore in my experience this is exactly what happens.  I have had 4 major fights in my house. 2 fights were a lab bitch and a terrier bitch. Lab nearly killed the bitch.   The other 2 fights were 2 terrier bitches in season. I could never get them back together again.   I had 2 male dogs up until recently never one bit of bother.

Being honest most people I know who have problems with dogs fighting it is the bitches. I have many freinds who have multiple male dogs together with no problem.   It is the bitches when they kick off that have long term issues with the same bitch.

Everyones expierance is different I guess :) :)

We have four males (three neutered, one entire) with no problems at all. We have a top dog (8-year old Pyrenean Mountain Dog) and a second in command (6-year old Lurcher) and two hooligans (3-year old Lurcher and 10-month old American Cocker) with no clear rank structure (yet)...

The top dog doesn't really care what the others do as long as they leave him alone and don't run into him or take his bones away! But then they all resource guard against each other, so it's not just the top dog. They are much like brothers really... whoever feels up to a challenge takes it on closely followed by everyone else. They look up to and respect their big brother (pyrenees) very much and definitely accept him as top dog, but Troy would never dream to make a big fuss of it... he doesn't care who eats first or sleeps on his or any other bed...

They just get along just fine.

Having said that, Troy is quite an exceptional pyrenees as many pyrenean males wouldn't accept other males (and certainly entire males) in their territory! I would never want to try two pyrenean males together either in normal circumstances.

I have 2 male dogs with a similer age gap although they are both 4 and one was only introduced to the household a year ago.They had a few scuffles at first but now live in perfect harmony.It helps that they are different breeds with very different personalities but neither are obviously dominant.They have worked out what each other will tolerate and play and live accordingly.One is a bull breed that lives for attention,the other a HoundxTerrier that lives for food :rolleyes:
I have a friend with 5 male dogs 4 of which are bull breeds that all live in perfect harmony :)

I am not sur eif the OP's dogs are castrated or not, but contrary to popular belief, there is actually quite a bit of evidence to suggest entire males find it easier to fit into a natural pecking order, and will encounter less problems than neutered ones if kept together.

I agree that some breeds get on, but certainly not all.

As long as you are ready to accept you may have to rehome one dog if he doesnt fit in to your pack, then go for it, but dont put all the rest of the dogs out that you already have by using gates to seperate, and have one dog here and one there, I dont think thats fair on people or dogs.
Why fuss seperating rooms and dogs when you could simply rehome and tey could get the attention they deserve rather then divided sparse attention!

Rach85,sometimes it is not an option to "simply rehome " for various reasons and everyones situation is different so why make such sweeping generalisations? I notice you didn't answer MoonMaidens question about your own experience owning multiple dogs.

More sweeping statements...why post if you have nothing to offer but generalities and misguided advice?

OP - I have, currently, 7 dogs.  6 of whom are male.  5 get along fantastically, 1 is a bit mental.  :)  Of the 5 that get along, 4 are Boxers.  They each have very laid back personalities, albeit the youngest are still a bit hyper. 

If you are to notice anything (and you may not), you will see one defer to the other in various ways.  One will be permitted choice sleeping areas, first go at food or drink, the 'best' toy, etc.  You may see one follow the other, allow the other through a doorway first.  During play, the submissive may offer up a belly in surrender.

With such a large pack, there are bound to be squabbles, and I've had them.  :)  They most definitely DO get over it and move on with the right encouragement and control from their human.

Good luck with your boys and have fun!

I have answered the question and it is that simple, if youre prepared to bring a new dog home which may upset your current dogs, why would you do that????? Why should youre dogs suffer a lifestyle change if you want a new dog which doesnt settle in with your pack?

In response to charlie, i hope your friend continues to have a life bless with his bullbreeds but unfortunatly the statement moonmaiden made about all dogs getting on regardless of breed is still untrue, certain dogs yeah but not with all breeds, its a sweeping generislation of dogs which isnt true.

MoonMaiden said that dogs "tend" to get on better than females regardless of breed which from my experience,what I've read and others have told me "tends" to be the case :) Obviously dogs that were originaly bred to fight other dogs will have that instinct regardless of sex and is something that needs to be taken in to account but we don't even know what breed the OP has.

From what ive quoted below charlie she says irrspective of breed, which means all breeds!

She also said males take once to sort it out, and this still isnt true, females maybe, but males no, not for all obviously but some males living together will simply not get on.

She also said males take once to sort it out, and this still isnt true, females maybe, but males no

That is the oposite of everything I have ever read or heard on the subject.Some rescues wouldn't even place a female in a home where there is one already for that very reason.

not for all obviously but some males living together will simply not get on.


I apreciate what you are trying to say but that is true of any dogs whatever the sex or breed.

>but unfortunatly the statement moonmaiden made about all dogs getting on regardless of breed is still untrue,

Do try reading & understanding before misquoting me I put "Dogs TEND" not ALL Dogs of ALL BREEDS do"

This is what you wrote Moonmaiden

Dogs tend to sort themselves out just once & bitches it's a lifetime of battles irrespective of breed

That to me says all breeds, am I right?

Actually No try reading it again it is a two part statement one for the males(ie dogs)& the other for bitches(ie females) & that refers to the bitches fighting forever as even in passive breeds bitches rarely if ever reconcile after fighting nowhere did I say Dogs(as in males)irrespective of breed never fight forever

Thats what you said!
Irrespective of breeds means it doesnt matter the breed dogs will fight once and forget it!!

No, MM said dogs (males) tend to fight once and get it sorted, not that they all will. With certain breeds it can be more difficult - dogs (males) of bull breeds tend to be more problematical.

When bitches fight it's a much more serious matter and it's not often they can be rehabilitated to live together again in harmony. Not just bull breeds - bitch problems apply to any breed.

Thanx JG that is what I wrote

If I had meant it applied to both sexes I would have put"Irrespective of breed dogs tend etc................" I deliberately put the irrespective of breed for bitches as this is the case

I would say that in many breeds several bitches are expected to get on, but when they do fall out then it is serious. 

In my own breed one person who has owned them for 55 years only ever had a problem when she had an adult bitch or adolescent join the existing pack.

On the other hand males when kept with entire breeding bitches and used as stud dogs would not be expected to get on, but some would, usually if there was a big age gap or personalities permitted.  In one sex homes the males invariably got on fine too.

I have kept up to five generations of bitches with other dogs visiting and they are a sociable bunch, with their own pecking order but never have been allowed to squabble.

I know of some breeds where two males would never be kept together, and some where the same sex would never be kept only opposite sex pairs.

No I didn't I wrote that dogs(as in male dogs not all dogs :rolleyes: :rolleyes: I presumed that people know male dogs are called dogs & females called bitches) tend to sort out their status once then I added that bitches irrespective of their breed can & do fight for life, you misread this to mean irrespective of breed applied to dogs(as in all dogs)because the first part of my post mentioned dogs

Come on now you two we are going to get the thread locked.

Why are we even talking bullbreeds anway, the OP has a Cocker. :-)

Which is what I did put Cockers aren't Bull Breeds & there's a lady who keeps nearly all male cockers to show & she has no problems with fighting(b*nking each other yes fighting no ;-) )

b*nking each other yes fighting no  )


:-D :-D Yes, a true Cocker trait. :-P

I agree Carrington!

Just she wont accept that some bull breed dogs wont just fight abd forget about it, it will be a life long grudge match, im happy to drop it if she will admit that one point! :)

Do all bull breeds fight to the death? :rolleyes: not a good advert for them. What dogs are we putting in the bull breed here?

Where did I write irrespective of breed applied to dogs (as in males not all dogs)?  In any case the original poster has two cockers not two staffies so comparing them & writing that they will become aggressive towards each other because this is what happens with bull breeds is totally irrelevant

I know lots of bull breeds are dog aggressive even to the opposite sex in or out of the same household especially when owned by inexperienced owners who do not have a good knowledge of the socialisation they need to prevent this. Lots are actually bred to be dog aggressive as their misguided breeders think & owners think is what they should be like.

However owners & breeder like my friend Ken who had Bull terriers bred for good temperament period & he knew how to handle the bull breeds & also how to chose the correct homes for them. His dogs used to lose out in the show ring because they did not"spar"up to other dogs. I've had my Cavaliers used by Staffie handlers to bait & goad their dogs into aggression, a couple were ejected from East Of England show for allowing their dogs to be aggressive to my dogs, from outside of the ring, by the show management, but on the other hand one of my Cavaliers has a male Staffie friend who adores him despite being several time his weight & who is very laid back towards all dogs of any sex, even when he was attacked by two male fox terriers he never retaliated as he is well trained & socialised by a very experienced staffie owner.

I hope you are not implying my friend does not know how to train a dog and expects his Stafford to be a fighter? He is a respected breeder!!

The Stafford is a fighting dog, or rather used to be, and whether you are the best breeder and trainer in the world, you will come across some who are simply not dog friendly, not nesscarily in an aggressive way but no matter how much socialisation has been done they hate other dogs!

Just to get that across.

Our girl Mitz is very dog friendly but I still watch her with a watchful eye, as you never know when her breed trait may show its self, 2 years so far and all is good! She also like your friends dog MoonMaiden loves little dogs, or big dogs, we're lucky she is so friendly.
But then breed traits can come out in any dog, so its not just the staff! :)

No did I didn't I did say misguided owner/breeders are the cause of most problematic bull breeds because of lack of knowledge. As to some dogs being born dog unfriendly I'll agree to differ.  Aggression & not being dog friendly is not the same(my Cavalier Joedee hates Airedales because he was attacked & hurt by one as a puppy, not because he was born hating them & he can be aggressive towards them he is however very dog friendly towards other breeds)

Dogs tend to sort themselves out just once & bitches it's a lifetime of battles irrespective of breed

This statement is true though Rach. Dogs do tend to sort themselves out easily.. it is bitches that dont. You are the first person I have every heard say it is the other way around.

Look at the replies. MOST have no problem so the word Tendancy is certainly appropriate here.

Im in 100% agreement with you Blue!! :) :)

Some dogs may tend to sort them selves out but not all, and that is allllll I'm saying, pure and simple, not all dogs are one fight dogs and get on, wish they were!
And as JG said it usually is Bull breeds which have more problems but like other owners Im ready for this should the worst happen, Fingers crossed it never does.

Im sorry me and Moonmaiden took this off topic! :rolleyes:

"Im sorry me and Moonmaiden took this off topic!"

LOL, I don't think MM took it off topic :D :rolleyes:

My understanding of Moonmaiden's statement is that "Dogs tend to sort themselves out just once", but with bitches it is a lifetime battle irrespective of breed.  With bitches and not with dogs.

I think personally each sex is very much like humans
Men have an argument fall out sort it and finish it,dogs fall out and make up and sort it.
Woman tend to fall out bitch on about it and never let it go,bitches tend to fall out and are never good friends again,they tolerate each other in some cases but others they hate the breath the other breathes.
Not all dogs are happy in multiple dog home some prefer a quiet human home.

Hi there

I have 3 bitches and 2 dogs.  The bitches all get on as do the dogs but my little cocker is the boss and he does have a tendency to try and bully Bazil.  They have only ever had one fight and that was over a ball that a friend threw in the house when visiting.  We dont normally play with balls etc., in the house because of the possibility of that.  Baz ended up with a ripped ear that had to be stitched.  They did forget about it and will never be the best of pals because I think Baz thinks the wee one is a bit of a prat!!! but they tolerate each other.  Baz is very laid back though but he does live for his ball and that would only ever be the area of conflict.  Anything else he would just let go.

I think it all depends on group dynamics.  When I wanted to get another dog I looked at what I had now and picked the right dog for the environment, lifestyle etc.,  When I wanted to get another dog I really would have liked a weim but knew that the breed would not fit into the group well.  That's when I decided on a Bracco.

Am I right in thinking that lots of show peeps either keep all male or all female?  I know it makes it easier when bitches come into season.

I have a very different mix of dogs and perhaps that's the reason it works so well.  And I have thought long and hard before getting another dog to make sure it fits in the group.

I would say however, that if the OP has experienced no problems up until now then there probably will be no problems.  IME the problems normally start when the younger one is reaching maturity.  My cocker was fully mature by the time he was probably a year and a half.  The Bracco takes until they are 3 until you can say they are truly adult!!!!!

Hope this puts forward another view. 

Kind regards
Annie