PLEASE can everyone that loves and knows anything on dogs spread the word about not buying these cutey pups ie.. shihpoos maltypoos , not so popular in this country yet thank our lucky stars but may money making breeders will cotton on to the demand soon.. the reason we have kennel club is to stop over breeding on poor bitches and to sop the amount of litters from one bitch as far as i am aware last year in west yorkshire alone  a healthy 500 puppies dogs and bitches where put down by lethal injection just because no one wanted them 8 days they are given to be rehomed if not rehomed in this time ... say no more these are the facts. I have two lovely dogs from a rehoming sanctury who would be now be dead.

Think your preaching to the converted here, and a search will show you we have all said as much lots of times.

Unfortunately the way to do this is via TV, radio and newspapers but most rescue's, breeders etc. cannot afford to do it this way and by the time people who've bought these crosses realise that theya re no what they appear to be it's too late and they've already bought them and then forums like this who advise not to buy such dogs aren't even looked at until it's too late.

QFT

>QFT

What does that stand for?

I agree these "crosses" are becoming so popular we even had one in our puppy class and we are just a small island!

Wikipedia would say that QFT is 'quoted for truth', used on forums where people can edit their posts ... except Crespin hasn't quoted, so I'm confused.

M.

I think Crespin is satying quite so to the psot above.

Quoted for truth - on forums usually means I agree with the previous post. My interpretation anyway.

QFT means quoted for truth, meaning I agree with the post.

Breeders (and i use the term loosly) have already cottoned on to this, judging by the amount of 'poo's' and 'doodles' etc in all manner of breed crosses. It seems to be 'the fashion' at the moment to have a first cross of any two breeds. 'Something different' thanks a lot to celebs.

As to the KC, they don't stop overbreeding during the first 1-8 yrs of a bitches life because they will register 6 litters regardless of if there is 6 mths or 12 mths between litters. There is nothing they can do to stop an unregistered litter between a registered litter. There are possibly just as many 'pure bred' without papers litters as there are mixed breed ones.

I may well not be popular in saying this, but I happen to think it is far better to PTS dogs than to keep them alive forever in rescue kennels. Although the people that work there are selfless and do the very best they can, with such a huge volume of dogs they can hardly be able to correctly rear a puppy and with a mix of some of the breeds bred where temp may be a problem.

I really don't think anyone on here would back any form of irresponsible breeding, crossed or Kc reg.

I have the same unpopular view about pups born or brought into in rescue kennels. You just don't have a clue what your getting with such a pup, temperament, health or appearance/size wise.  With the adults you know what you have warts and if homeable efforts should concentrate on these finding good homes as quickly as possible.

Ok, going to make myself unpopular here.

I can see both sides. Yes, there are people that are cashing in and producing litter after litter with no health checks or thought to temperament, but that happens in most KC regocnised breeds too.

I think a lot of the crosses are just silly and done for either a cute name of for owners to have something 'rare'. Puggles are an example, two wildly different breeds of dog crossed for the sake of a cute name.

I can understand labradoodles though. I can honestly say I've never met a bad one, even the ones that do come from puppy farms. I know there aren't figures on how many are
bred each year (I bet it's a lot though) but very few end up in rescue. The only ones I've seen in rescue have been because the 'breeder' told them they were suitable for allergy sufferers, which obviously they're not.

I know people involved in labradoodles, and they are not puppy farmers. Dogs have the relevant health tests (not sure what they are but I think it's hips, elbows and eyes) and bred for temperament. They raise their puppies in the home and they have an agreement to take any back if it's ever needed. They don't make false claims about their coats, and they are breeding to achieve a long term goal, which is producing a particular type of dog. My understanding is that the labradoodle ideal is a scruffy looking, low to non shedding dog with an outgoing, confident and friendly temperament. Of the ones I've met, the coat varies a fair bit, but is usually lower shedding than a lab, (or my rescue lab cross who must shed hair quicker than he can grow it!) and is usually scruffy looking. They are breeding multi generation now, but I think it's better to do what they're doing and widen the gene pool before they start selecting purely for the coat.

While I know there are hundreds of KC registered breeds, but there aren't any that are the same as a labradoodle, if that's what matches someones lifestyle then why is that automatically a problem?

As for reasons to create a new breed, I think 'good family pet with a certain look' is more of a valid reason than why dobermans or leonbergers were created.

There are breeds that have the coat qualities of all the poodle lab crosses, as the coats vary so much.

Some I have seen have coats like Otterhounds or Spinones, some like terriers like wheaten terriers.  Of the curly type coats why not go for an existing breed with predictable results.  Poodles don't have to have a fancy clip but can be kept more natural.  There are Curly Coated retrievers, Lagotta Romagnolas, Spanish water dogs, Irish Water Spaniels, so there is nothing new they bring.

For shaggy coats there is the Polish Lowland Sheepdog, Beardie etc.

But they're temperaments are very different.

They tend to be more 'worky' don't they? I think a fair few of them have a fairly strong guarding instinct as well, which isn't ideal for the average family.

I agree with you about poodles, and I do think they can look lovely with their coats left natural (although possibly more maintenance than a labradoodle? I don't know ) but they aren't for everyone. In my experience, labradors tend to be more silly and happy go lucky, and teh labradoodles I've met take after them.

I think my main problem is people being judgemental about everything. I don't like hearing rescue people say 'there is no such thing as a responsible breeder' or hearing animal rights people say 'everyone who hunts is evil' even though I neither breed nor hunt.

I suppose i'm just saying there CAN be responsible, caring breeders of labradoodles, whether people agree with them or not.  You don't have to live with one, but I do think there are far more damaging things to dogs for folks to worry about, like puppy farmers in any breed, and back yard breeders, and dog control orders, and irresponsible people who allow their dogs to have accidental litters etc.

What I don't understand is people doubling up with breeds that are very prone to epilepsy, HD & PRA with this cross & of course there are no tests for epilepsy. There aren't many labradoodles that have been scored or eye tested nor DNA tested. Apart from these mutual health problems the breeders are introducing Sebaceous Adenitis & Narcolepsy into their designer dogs & when they bred the crossbreeds together they run the risk of producing puppies with both problems & there is no DNA test for SA as yet

Can't get more worky than a lab, or more hyper than a Poodle, after all in the past Poodles were water dogs, and really it could be argued belong in the gundog group.

Purpose seems to have Little influence which breeds are the most popular pets, in fact the toy and Utility groups are not the most popular, but the Gundog and Pastoral and working, then some of the terrier breeds.

The breeds already as are as varied in size and temperament as any of the Cross breeds where there isn't really a clue.

Could it be the sort of people that will be drawn to the hype and marketing tactics surrounding these crosses probably don't even know these other breeds of dogs exist. 

Urgh, just lost my whole reply!

It's too late to do the whole thing again, so I'll just repeat my main points!

By worky, I was meaning more 'sharp', if that makes sense? Spanish water dogs for example have a strong guarding instinct, as do a few of the others you mentioned, who I have now forgot. A dog that needs a lot of exercise is one thing, but a dog that needs to be very carefully socialised and managed is more for the experienced owner.

I would rather see a delliberate cross, bred for health and temperament and raised correctly homed with an inexperienced family, than a high drive border collie/husky/akita/shar pei etc. I see a LOT of the wrong (KC reg) dogs in the wrong hands at classes. In all fairness, the worst has been a deliberate cross of malamute x border collie. Really lovely owners but I think this was their first dog, and he was incredibly difficult. Extremely intelligent, very stubborn, very active, very strong, not the most confident. Recipe for disaster really.

I don't know anything about the health aspect, but the labradoodle breeders I know do do lots of health testing, hip scoring etc. I'm not a breeder so I've never researched any of that.

I've been reading about australian service dogs, which are basically labradoodles a few years down the line. They definitely seem to be more predictable and more of a 'breed', and they have other breeds in them rather than just labrador and poodle. I think that's a good way of going. I just don't see anything wrong with people trying to create a healthy, extremely sociable, confident, scruffy, low shedding dog. Obviously it's very early days, and there will be variation, but as long as potential puppy purchasers are made aware of that, it's their prerogative and nobdy is getting hurt.

I think the most popular breeds of dog aren't necessarily the most appropriate for the homes they're in, but i have a feeling you'll agree with me on that!

I just think personal choice means if people want a dog of a certain breed that isn't registered by the kennel club, then what's teh harm? Unless they are being puppy farmed, but a KC reg doesn't protect a dog from that fate.

I know I've already said I don't know anything about health and genetics, but I can't see how widening a gene pool would have an adverse effect? If there are problems you can't test for, surely adequate records would mean that if a dogs family member developed a condition, you would just neuter that dog and all it's relatives? Also, these problems have come about from the narrow gene pools of the breeds we already have, so maybe we desperately DO need more breeds?

I'm not going to say that there isn't a problem with puppy farms, because there is. I think puppy farms and BYB's are responsible for the hostility directed at ALL breeders, whatever they breed and however much they care.

My main priority is the right pup for the right home. That's high drive, nippy border collies for an agility nut or a farmer, a cavalier for a little old lady (don't tell my mother in law I said that!) an ex racing greyhound for a lazy couch potato, a KC reg dog from champion lines for a show person, and if an family want a happy, sociable labradoodle, well that's fine with me!

Gonna post this now before i lose it all and have a proper strop!

>My main priority is the right pup for the right home. That's high drive, nippy border collies for an agility nut or a farmer, a cavalier for a little old lady (don't tell my mother in law I said that!) an ex racing greyhound for a lazy couch potato, a KC reg dog from champion lines for a show person, and if an family want a happy, sociable labradoodle, well that's fine with me!

Rather sweeping generalisations there! ;) I think it's probably fair to assume that most people would want a 'happy, sociable' dog, of whatever breed, but with most of the first crosses the breeders have absolutely no idea of the temperament of the grandparents, let alone further back in the line, so temperaments - and other characteristics such as size, coat etc - is a complete gamble.

" I just don't see anything wrong with people trying to create a healthy, extremely sociable, confident, scruffy, low shedding dog. Obviously it's very early days, and there will be variation, but as long as potential puppy purchasers are made aware of that, it's their prerogative and nobody is getting hurt."

I think you need to look at the bigger picture.

There already is in existence a breed to suit all the requirements anyone could want. 

For example I wanted a natural Spitz type breed.  Also a with a sensible coat that needed little grooming when not moulting, so that took out some of the longer feathery coated types.

I did not want a working sled dog breed as I could not meet their needs. 

I wanted a breed that was not quarrelsome or very dominant, so that removed some more of this type. 

Had to be medium size, so that removed some of the smaller types.

I was left with my breed which is medium size close coated, easy going affectionate, but proud and independent.

Only fly in the ointment is they are a hunting dog so are naturally independent and will range ahead.  Training and management are the answer, and they are certainly no more of a problem in this regard then the ever popular often mix-bred terrier people call Jack Russell.

I would never seek to eliminate these hunting traits as they are what make the breeds character.  I have in fact travelled to mate my bitch to a hunting and show champion, and in imports direct from hunting dogs in Norway have come some of the best dogs from the character point of view.  It is what keeps them outgoing, even tempered etc.  These have also been some of the most trainable, you just need to know what the main drives in a  breed are (which will be apparent from the purpose they were bred for, which you won't know in a cross from widely different breeds), some are more compatible with being easy to live with than others.  The aforementioned Racing Greyhound can make one of the easiest pets to live with, yet care does need to be taken with their sight driven prey drive.

Many of the best family dogs are in fact hunting/gundog breeds.  The traits that make them so are in fact their hunting ones channelled in another direction.  No dog (except a stuffed one) will make a good companion without training.

Most people do not do any serious research into their needs and lifestyle and the requirements and nature of the breeds they are looking at.

The problem with seriously designing a new breed is the huge number that WILL NOT MEET THE REQUIREMENTS.  For every pup that is just what is desired there will be half a dozen that are not, and this process has to be repeated over and over and over to get a wide enough gene base on which to base a whole breed.  It is not acceptable in my mind to breed lots of dog the vast majority of which will not meet the ideal.

In your show or working bred litters there may only be the one puppy that meets the exacting standards for the best looks and ability in detail, but most will still meet the standard, and you will know what you are getting I am only speaking of properly bred pedigree dogs).

Your Labradoodle is already starting with two breeds both that have similar and different inherited health issues, so once you have created your breed you have added these issues together so instead of a breed with say two serious health issues you now have one with four.  this has been exactly the experience in Australia, which is why they are now trying to fix things, by adding new blood from other breeds, but of course the danger is they may bring in problems from these they didn't already have in the existing gene bank.

Those who have a fascination with genetics, or like something unusual and want to devote their lives to breeding  have plenty of scope to choose any of the breeds that have low numbers and need new dedicated enthusiastic breeders that can move them ahead and continue to eradicate what ills have been accidentally allowed to proliferate.

Exactly what traits are missign in all the hundreds of known breeds that can be found in the average labradoodle (oh yeah no such thing as an average one), after all if the breeds used do not already have these traits then their crossbred offspring aren't going to.  If the desired traits are already to be found then why crossbreed.

>I know I've already said I don't know anything about health and genetics, but I can't see how widening a gene pool would have an adverse effect? If there are problems you can't test for, surely adequate records would mean that if a dogs family member developed a condition, you would just neuter that dog and all it's relatives? Also, these problems have come about from the narrow gene pools of the breeds we already have, so maybe we desperately DO need more breeds?

You cannot predict recessive & multi gene conditions(that there are no DNA tests for) you could go for years & generations not knowing that they dogs are carriers or if all the genes occur in one puppy the condition will appear ? The ISDS are very strict & yes the whole of the dogs offspring etc were removed from the gene pool if they produce CEA or PRA(which may not develop under very late in life). Look at my young BC dog over 30 years of breeding clear to clear & yet he is a carrier. His pedigree is very open  so it did not come about by a narrow gene pool. Happily there is a DNA test for CEA & this means that he will not be producing any affected offspring. Widened the gene pool by putting two breeds with the same genetic conditions as well as non shared genetic conditions is actually breeding in health problems not breeding them out, especially as there are no DNA tests for epilepsy, HD or SA in the case of the Standard poodle x Labrador Retriever

>My main priority is the right pup for the right home. That's high drive, nippy border collies for an agility nut or a farmer, a cavalier for a little old lady (don't tell my mother in law I said that!) an ex racing greyhound for a lazy couch potato, a KC reg dog from champion lines for a show person, and if an family want a happy, sociable labradoodle, well that's fine with me!

Er "Nippy"border collie being suitable for a farmer or agility i think not My two BC's are very high drive but they are not "Nippy"one is bred to do obedience & the other bred to work period

Er Cavaliers for old ladies how little you know the breed

Er if an family want a happy, sociable labradoodle :rolleyes: you obviously haven't seen all these X breeds that end up in rescues totally & utterly out of control !

Sorry you obviously have little insight into health testing to say lots of these Xbreed breeder health test have a look on the BVA for the number hip scored ?? in relationship to the thousands being bred very very few are health tested

I'm sat here cuddled up with my £500 Yorkiepoo and I'd pay £1k for the next one. Absolutely the best dog I've ever had on every front.

I don't think anyuone is saying they aren't nice dogs just that as with a mongrel you really don't know what you are getting in terms of health etc. None of the crosses have really been around long enough to know what health problems they may suffer from.

You must be mad paying £500 for a mongrel !!!!!!

Maybe not so much mad but silly to support the exploitation of the dogs purely to sell to gullible people.  surely a trip to the dogs home for a puppy would have at least helped save a life as you are not bothered about how the pup will look or what traits it is likely to inherit, which is the reason for getting a pedigree, and also that the parents are health tested so a better bet health wise, but as you bought a crossbred pup who I am sure did not have health tested or researched pedigree you would have been just as well with a Heinz from a rescue.

The justification for a pedigree pup to cost around £500 - £700 is the care and investment in time and money that went into their breeding.  Health tests, competitions in work or conformation to show their compliance with the breed standards etc.

.

Did your yorki poo have all the specific health checks for a yorkie and a poodle????
If notm why did you pay that much for a mongrel thats has had no health checks, and you could have got a dog from best of breed lines, with all the health tests AND know what it will look like as an adult for the same amount/?????
Lea.

Even when there are no specific health tests available a good breeder will have researched their breed and know the traits of the various ancestors in their pedigrees, know which sires and dams produced which good traits and which had weaknesses or problems(e.g. cleft palates, bad bites, only one descended testicle or matters of serious importance).

To know all this about two breeds and then to have any clear idea how the traits good and bad in these are going to interact in the resulting pups would take a very clever breeder who would not be wasting their time producing crossbreeds for sale, it is hard enough trying to ensure you are producing healthy typical pups in a purebred litter.

One of our regular posters had an accidental cross litter of two similar size breeds and I don't think anyone could have predicted some of the results, and how varied they turned out.

" agree with you about poodles, and I do think they can look lovely with their coats left natural (although possibly more maintenance than a labradoodle?"

All Lab x Poodles I've seen have been clipped back to the wood anyway which is what would happen with a pet Poodle anyway, so what's the difference?    And the Poodle is a very intelligent breed, the Standard Poodle was once used a gundog.

>the Poodle is a very intelligent breed, the Standard Poodle was once used a gundog.

Some still are. :)

Another image

I wonder why they are not in the Gundog group, is it because the smaller ones were bred down purely for companionship?  After all the Portuguese Waterdog is clipped off behind in the show ring and is in the working group?

Found this site http://www.poodletrainingclub.co.uk/ which is for enthusiasts of Poodles in the UK that work in Obedience,a s of course we have had one in recent years win the Obedience championships at Crufts.

Sadly a lot of people can't see past the stylised fancy hair do adopted in the showring, or that this is not manadatory.

>is it because the smaller ones were bred down purely for companionship?

I wondered that, but the different sizes of Schnauzer are in different groups, so it would be perfectly possible to put the standard poodle into the gundog group where it really belongs.

Fantastic to see some good pictures of poodles how they really are - working gundogs.

At the Poodle and Lab's are both "gundogs" or should I say the Poodle originally was then I'm sure quite a few of them are working dogs too.  Plus the reason that the Labradoodle was first set out for didn't work out!

The differences I've seen in Labradoodles is huge.  Some like Poodle's, some like Lab's, some like Wirehaired Visla's, actually all kinds of different looks.  I've not seen any look the same yet, though to be truthful I've not seen loads.

I've never seen one, but curiosity is going to get the better of me now and I know I'm going to google it. 

There was a feature in The Sunday Times Style Magazine last weekend about someone who had just 'selected' a minature golden doodle pup.  Not heard of this cross.  Anyone?  

Yes, it's where a miniature poodle is used (as the stud, one would hope, considering the consequences of the alternative) instead of a standard poodle, with the other parent being a golden retriever.

Think they would need to use a toy probably to get any miniturisation of the golden traits.  I think a min poodle cross Golden would still likely be knee high.

i was in pets at home durning the week and they are selling a book called "cockapoo's)

I have to admit, I do like the look of some 'Golden Doodles' I have seen. However, on principle, I would never want one, and do not agree with them being bred, just like other cross-breds.

As i have said before, it is not the dogs themselves I am against, just the type of breeder.

I have only ever seen one Golden x Poodle... and it was one of them most stunning dogs I have ever seen. I'd even have no problem paying a price for it if it was bred from health tested parents etc., but what I don't like is the money making reasons and the fact that many ...doodle breeders advertise their pups as if they were purebreds...

Vera

It is interesting to note that there are now DNA tests for PRA available for both Labrador x Poodle and Cocker Spaniel  x Poodle.

My main issue is that alot of these "breeders" advertise them as non moulting which because they are a crossbreed they can't actually guarrantee!

See my  message under People Buying Puppies!!!!!

It's so frustrating when they call them 'rare' as well.  I have seen 'rare' poodle x boston terriers for sale and would be the first silver ones of this kind in this country!!!  Bargain for £1000   Oh and non-moulting too so perfect for carrying or a handbag

The breeder I was referring to IS a Top Breeder in her breed, with many, many champions !!!!!!

i don't agree with some x breeds but i do believe that the COCKAPOO will be recognized in the UK. all dogs are x breeds they all stared somewhere.

Edited by Mod to remove large section of copied & pasted material - please read TOS

Can cockapoo run 'true' after second generation???
To be recognised by the KC they need to be conformity in the breed.
I know Labradoodles were NOT carried on by the Guiode dogs for the blind, as after so many generations they were still throwing back dogs that are allergenic!!!! So not what they started.
So I cant see how Cockapoo can be ready to be KC registered as a big organisation cant 'create' a new breed!!!
UInles Ben fogle, or was it his dad that said it!!!!
Lea.

Is that the 'standard' for an American cocker crossed with a poodle or an English cocker cross? The two breeds are very different.

And what is their working purpose?

Of course, before they can be recognised as a breed, there can be no more crossing. While that still happens there's no chance of recognition.

before i got leo i was desperate for a labradoodle!!! :D

What i got so confused about was when looking it said "mum and dad kc registered!" why would they use two pedigree dogs to basically make a mongrel??? Seemed really odd!!

That and the fact that the ones i looked at were like £750!!!!!!!!!!!!! huge price for basically a mutt :D

>i don't agree with some x breeds but i do believe that the COCKAPOO will be recognized in the UK. all dogs are x breeds they all stared somewhere.

Well it has taken over 60 years for them to recognize the Cesky Terrier(Originates from Sealyhams & Scottish Terriers) & they were originally bred for a working purpose & not just a cutsie pet & designer status. Just because one registry in the USA will recognise almost any breed or mix of breeds doesn't mean the UK KC will do the same

The"breed"standard you quote is very er what can I say vague as to the dogs actual appearance & a general description as to nor resembling either originating breed 

The KC in the UK has the view that dogs should be developed for a purpose as well as pets

I doubt you or I will be around in the very unlikely event that they are recognised as a breed & they will certainly have to have a change of name The KC will never accept the designer tag