For anyone who has tradionally docked breeds,  can I have your views on this.

Reading a thread on another forum,  talking about docking, and what method people prefered (when it was legal) 

One lady,  who  disliked banding, gave her reasons.... in her words, she says the pups suffer distress by banding,as in her experience,  she says..... puppies who have had their tails banded will feel pain for days after,  she knows this as she has witnessed, her 3 /5 day old pups shifting from side to side, and will not sit down on their backsides  , because they are in pain.

Now as I understand it , 3day old pups can just about shuffle about to seek out their dams teats, let alone sit up and decide which side to sit on to releive pain.

Any views welcome.......

My litters have never been able to sit that early on. They're still fat slugs at 10+ days, and don't start to sit until their eyes are open.

Yep what I  thought.

my pups showed no pain at banding but screamed when dew claws cut which is of course, still legal! how ironic

That is what the Dobe breeders of my acquaintance told me too, most much preferred banding to cutting, but found few vets who would do it.

Well mine were always cut, I've never experienced them being banded.  They would squeak literally for the split second that it happened but when they had their dew claws cut they screamed like banshees!!! 

They never ever showed any signs of pain and straight away fed from their mother and went to sleep!

"suffer distress by banding"

Distress (if any) with any procedure is momentarily. Banding however, does not tend to cut through bone. When a puppy is banded, the band will naturally 'sit' comfortably between bones. If you cut through a tail, there is a very good chance you will cut through bone and not inbetween the bones. Cutting through bone will take the tail far longer to heal and cause more scaring. Farmers have banded lambs for hundreds of years.

And thes lambs have fully functioning adult nervous systems unlike newborn pups who have much less perception.

I have known of banded puppies to have problems with the tail because the bone has grown into the skin left after the tail has fallen off. We thought our dog was going to have to have surgery to have some tail removed because of the problem with the tail end, something our vet said was common when dogs are banded.

I don't understand how the bone once removed could grow into the skin.  Perhaps the banding was not tight enough so that an open wound was left through which the Bone protruded?  All the banded pups tails I have sen have had a lovely neat end to the tail unlike the sometimes bald, or hair tufted tails that have been cut, not to mention tail bones cut through unevenly.

"I have known of banded puppies to have problems with the tail because the bone has grown into the skin left after the tail has fallen off"

Interesting, I have never heard of this in a banded puppy but have come across it a few times with 'cut' tails. I can only assume that the banding must have sat squarely in the middle of a bone and sheered it off, leaving a rough edge? One of my own dogs suffered from a similar problem where the bone was cut through (by scissors) leaving a rough edge.The rough edge of the sheered off bone would open up the end of his tail on a regular basis. It never healed 100% and one reason why I prefer my dogs banded.

This was def a banded tail, and he was not the only one in the litter to be affected, one bitch had an infection at 8 weeks. Its a hell of a long time ago now, but as I remember the tail was swollen and the vet said something about the bone pushing into the skin, and if it didnt settle he would have to amputate some of the tail. he did say this was not be the first (or expected it to be the last) time he had to do this with banded tails. Our dog was about 3-6mths, its a long time ago so time now escapes me.

> And thes lambs have fully functioning adult nervous systems

I have seen newly banded lambs, and they looked DISTINCTLY unhappy - and this was hours after. But they were male and had had their testicles banded too , so I don't know how much discomfort the tail on its own caused.

Yes, banding the testicles has a much greater effect on them than just banding the tails. Ewe lambs skip off afterwards without any shock to their system.

I can confirm that as a Friend near me used to rear a couple of lambs on a field she owned and hated having to castrate the boys as they did seem to be affected, but not the tails.  Interestingly enough though she liked to keep her Welsh Springers undocked, her choice.

No docking... my American Cocker as the most beautiful long tail and I would not have it any other way!

No other  option now, unless the breeder is likely to have any of the pups working.

I dont agree with docking unless the dog will be working, if the dog is a pet then its only a cosmetic procedure and thats not enough justification for docking.

and the law unfortuantely agrees with you.  Sad as no-one was ever forced to dock or own a docked dog, so why interefere with other peoples preference, when there is no scientific justication.  Lambs and are still docked, piglets de-tusked, cattle and goats dehorned, various animals gelded? (Not sure if gelding is still done without anasthesia), without anastheritc, all animals with mature neervous systems. 

"Lambs and are still docked, piglets de-tusked, cattle and goats dehorned, various animals gelded? (Not sure if gelding is still done without anasthesia), without anastheritc, all animals with mature neervous systems."

Lambs are docked for a very important reason, to stop maggot infestation and tail rot as they get very dirty underneath through the winter. Cattle and goats are only dehorned so they do not cause harm to the other animals which is a very big problem on stock farms and not all farmers do it, and horses are gelded under general anasthetic and gelding is done for a very important reason, life in the equine world would be a disaster if we had only stallions.

Unfortunately the reason the tail docking ban came into force was because of the amount of people who did it wrong and the cruelty cases.

>and horses are gelded under general anesthetics and gelding is done for a very important reason, life in the equine world would be a disaster if we had only stallions.

Er no not all geldings are done under GA as putting a horse under GA for a fairly minor(in terms of technical side)operation. All the colts I have been involved with have been gelded using a local anaesthetic whilst the hosre is standing. to put a horse under GA would mean gelding was way to expensive for a lot of people, plus not all vets have a horse operating theatres

Ok,,maybe I shuldnt have used GA so lightly *sigh* Colts are sedated when gettin gelded and it is done standing up, but the sedation is there.

Jesse's tail was left long BEFORE the docking ban came into force (he is 10 months old now).

Well having had my LM girl (I know not a traditionally docked breed but some are tipped) split her tail twice in the past fortnight and she's not a trained gundog as such, I can only hope your Am.Cocker gets away scot free all his life.   As Brainless states, no-one forces a buyer to take an undocked dog and it's proven that Joe Public prefers a docked one to an undocked.

Well, that's the question really... I run dog training classes, and I have come across very few people that specifically went out looking for a docked dog (in fact, I can't remember any...)! The standard answer always seems to be that they would have preferred a long tail had they known about it (yes, lots of people don't aware that tails are cut off and the puppies not born without it...) and had they had the choice...

I can only hope your Am.Cocker gets away scot free all his life

Like I hope that our lurchers will never break their legs or damage their very long, thin tails... And yes, the lurchers are more likely to do damage to their legs and tails than Jesse ever is... They run through high grass, undergrowth and woods at very high speeds... Jesse doesn't! And yet, I have never heard of anyone suggesting that lurchers should be docked... (or dachshunds for example that work in the same environment as spaniels and terriers too).

Vera

So why is it, when a breeder friend of mine, (she has a litter) is asked by some, are the dogs docked, as that is what they would like.

Because some people will have preferences... but the vast majority of the general dog owning public doesn't care either way or would prefer a long tail if they knew how the short tails come about! That's my experience anyway dealing with the average pet dog owners on a daily basis.

Vera

I'm sorry but the general public I have met definitely want their boxers to look as they have traditionally done, same with dobes and rotts, maybe it isn't quite the issue for people with breeds that have long hair and the tail is less obvious when at rest, like with Yorkies.

There has been a huge drop in registrations of the traditionally docked breeds since the law came in.  It remains to be seen if this continues, but I know the breeders I know have had a lot of people pull out of enquiring for the breed when informed they will not be able to be docked any more.

I know one person who has owned 7 Doberman, but will not be having another because of the tail, and some breeders who have bred their last litters.

I don't know of anyone who wants an undocked dog of a traditionally docked breed, people I've spoken to won't go back to the breed they've had for years because of the docking ban.  I would've liked another ESS (But show bred) in the future but I won't look at one with the  long tail as I know the dmamge that can be inflicted on it.

And 20 years down the line, people won't be able to imagine ever having docked dogs - just like people can't imagine in this country to have cropped dogs! I remember very well when cropping was banned in Switzerland (where I grew up) and it was very strange at first to see the dogs with natural ears, now I hate the look of them as it looks so unnatural! Exactely the same will happen with the docked tails.

Oh, and you guys might know this (and this is a genuine question not intended to wind anyone up!!!): why do working dogs have longer docks than show dogs considering that a dock is meant to prevent injuries? Surely a longer dock makes injuries more likely as more of the tail is left? And the other question I have is some breeds that do the same work are docked and others aren't; e.g. corgies, herding dogs (Australian Shepherd docked, Border Collie is not, etc.), terriers (Bedlington is long tailed, most other terriers are docked, the dachshund doing similar work isn't docked either). I have asked this question various times, but have never got an answer, but perhaps someone on this board can help and shed light on this.

Vera

"And 20 years down the line, people won't be able to imagine ever having docked dogs"

20 years down the line the nanny state will have had ALL dogs banned :rolleyes:

"why do working dogs have longer docks than show dogs considering that a dock is meant to prevent injuries"

It all comes down to tail action and job of work. The length of dock is dictated by the job of work that the dog is expected to do. A pointer works open moorland - no cover - so no need to dock. A spaniel works heavy cover - the tail action is fast and furious - hence tail injury and need to dock. 

If you run a search using the facility at the top of the forum page, you will find HUNDREDS of posts explaining this and other issues :)

It all comes down to tail action and job of work. The length of dock is dictated by the job of work that the dog is expected to do. If you run a search using the facility at the top of the forum page, you will find HUNDREDS of posts explaining this and other issues

I can understand that, but how come that the show versions of the same breed have shorter docks than the working versions? Surely that's the wrong way round... Also, if the docking is to prevent injuries, surely the shorter the dock the better...

And it doesn't explain why of two breeds that do exactely the same kind of work one is docked and the other isn't...

I'll go and have a look at older threads now as suggested...

Vera

If your talking BCs and Aussies it does. They may both herd but they do work totally differently and were developed for totally different roles one on the hills and fells in the north of England the other on the vast cattle ranches of America. BCs were not expected to dodge the flying hooves of large wild cattle but were bred to face down a determind sheep, not usually working as close in as the Aussie. Also some Aussies are naturally bob tailed so this would be seen as an advantage.

A question.  A pointer works open moorland - no cover - so no need to dock.

The English Pointer has a long tail, the German Shorthaired Pointer is docked, do they do the same job, or is the GSP part of the HPR gundog?

A longhaired Weimaraner is not docked, or if it is only the very tip is taken, yet the Weimaraner (shorthair) is docked much shorter. The Hungarian Vizsla, also part of the HPR's has a longer dock than the Weim, its so long it seems almost pointless to have removed the 1/3 that is.

I am prodocking for working dogs, but I have never been able to understand the difference between docking lengths for dogs that do the same job, or that a show dog will have a shorter tail dock than the same breed that is used for working. if its to get the tail out of the way of possible injury why the different lengths?

Yes, the GSP is a HPR breed, so is used in a variety of situations.

The amount of coat on the tail affects how much is removed.

Thanks JG :)

I don't think that whether or not a dog is docked should be decided by what people prefer. :rolleyes: The animal's welfare should be at the heart of the decision, whether it be canine communication, risks of procedure, or risks of leaving a tail long for working etc.

but docking is not a welfare issue as the pups feel little or nothing.  A dog with a docked tail or one that is tightly curled is a lot more convenient to live with, just as a neutered one is for many people.  Neutering is done primarily for owner convenience, and Early neutering is far more of a welfare issue interfering with the natural development of the body.

And the rubbish that's spouted that a docked dog can't communicate is just that.  The tail would be the last thing another dog would see if they were face to face!  Also a docked dog can run and turn quickly without losing it's balance.

I have to admit that I will, as long as they are good enough, only be keeping natural bobtails to show in my breed.  Although with my next pup I will try and be a bit more serious with the gundog side of things.

Now they aren't docked, but they carry their tails tightly curled over their backs yet my breed need to turn on a sixpence to ensure they don't get their brains smashed in by an angry Elk (Moose to Americans)with dinner plate size feet.

If tails were the all important communicator mine ought to have all the local dogs fighting with them with the upright carriage.