Please forgive me for rambling, I just need to type the story to get it straight in my head - and maybe feel better.

Ok..the background is...

I have a large breed, dog aggressive dog, he's 6 now and has always had a dodgy temperament. He was very well socialised as a youngster but from around 6 months started to growl at other dogs. He had to be neutered eventually as I couldn't get him into a show ground without incident. He is very dominant - it's not fear aggression. I've had two very good behaviourists help and have done a huge amount of work with him. I can now walk him on his lead near other dogs without him leaping around barking, he will glare and his tail goes up but I can carry on walking past them. This is when he's out on his own - if I'm out with all 4 dogs he's a nightmare and will lunge and bark at any dog in the distance. No training has been able to stop this and both behaviourists recommended he be walked separately.

However, it's more fun to walk all the dogs together, and it means that they all get a longer walk, rather than having to do two separate walks. I seek out empty fields, places where I'm unlikely to meet other dogs and the beast and his brother (who isn't really aggressive in his own right, but will copy) are muzzled when they're off lead just to be safe.

Yesterday I was on our usual walk in a huge empty field when I saw a person in the distance, I called the boys and put their leads on but left their muzzles on. I've no idea why I done this as usually as soon as their leads go on the muzzles come off. I turned round and started walking the other direction, when I glanced back I saw a golden lab hurtling in our direction so turned back again and shouted to the owner to call it back. The collies ran out to greet it and of course the beast started leaping up and down barking. He's taller than me when he stands on his back legs and is 50kg of muscle. I called the girls back, they came racing back followed by the other dog. By now I have a wild animal in each arm trying to rip my arms out their sockets. The dog came right up to us, he was now about 2 football pitches in length away from his owner. Both boys tried to bite the dog and dunted it with their muzzles and still it kept racing round us and darting in. The whole encounter seemed to last forever till the owner finally arrived and put a lead on the dog and took it away. He didn't say a word and I couldn't speak.

When I had the boys calmed down I started thinking about what would have happened had they not had their muzzles on, even though they were on their leads they would have bitten that dog :(   My left arm is really sore now, think I've pulled a muscle as I was struggling to hold them back. It's made me think very seriously again if I'm doing the right thing.

3 years ago the beast managed to escape from his halti and collar and attacked a golden retriever. No harm was done before I managed to lasso him again but the incident was terrifying. His breeder wanted him put to sleep then but I refused saying I could keep him safe. Since then I've been very careful with him. He's always on a lead when I think I might meet dogs but his breed does need free running so he is muzzled when off lead. He wears a harness which is escape-proof. I've had 3 years of this and was confident that he's not a threat to anyone...until yesterday :(

Now, I just don't know what to do. I had convinced myself that if he was on a lead that was fine, but hadn't made allowances for the stupid dogs that will come running over even if he is barking and growling at them. He's going to have to keep his muzzle on all the time now even when on lead..but is that enough?

Sorry I'm not qualified or experienced enough to give advice, but I just wanted to commend you for all the hard work you've obviously put into this dog. It sounds as though separate, muzzled walks might be the way forward? However I'm sure the experts will turn up soon. :-)

I think for his brothers sake he needs to be walked alone.  I am sure you could cope with just him in the situation you describe, and that his brother away from him will be easier too.

You're both right that separate walks is the safest solution but it's not the easiest one. He's absolutely fine when walked alone, but that means 3 separate walks morning and evening. Which means less time for all of them. I've become spoiled with lovely long afternoon walks, we're often out for 3 or 4 hours. However if I'm walking the beast separately it means I have to walk his brother separately too, as I don't like to leave one dog in the house alone. So that means 3 walks of around an hour each. It's not as much fun for any of us to just do short walks, the boys won't run and play if they're on their own - they just mope about at my heel! Oh why can't life just be simple :(

I can sympathise :( 
I've got a rescued undersocialised dog aggressive large breed too.  I had my dog on a lead and muzzled for a walk along the beach when two dogs came flying over totally out of the control of their owner and one circled round at 100 mph barking while the other one piled in and attacked my dog.  Their owner eventually caught up with them and came over shrieking and flapping at me for having a dangerous dog because he was wearing a muzzle  
The muzzle's only on because of ignorant and irresponsible people like her

What about taking the beast out with one of the well behaved obedient girls, and then the brother with the other.

oh yes, that's really very sensible. I never do that :rolleyes: I always take the two boys or the two girls or all four. Ok, tomorrow I'll try one boy and one girl then the other two. It's still two walks but better than 3 and the boys will have something to play with :)

Well done to you.  Owning these dogs is never easy - compounded by all the numpties out there - and I think you've done a fantastic job!

I second walking him with a well behaved girl - even if she doesn't teach him anything, it at least means better walks for them and if he does kick off, easier for you to keep control.  I've done this with my oldest girl before - she's fear aggressive to other dogs, but getting better - and it does make life a little easier.  I sympathise with you though - especially with the dark mornings and nights now, having to do twice the walking is a royal pain in the behind, and I must confess that my lot are getting one hour's walk a day at the moment (I'm blessed in that I can take them somewhere we're very unlikely to meet other dogs and let them all off).

Well I'm just back from my second walk this morning :) Both boys refused to run with only a silly little collie to chase, and both girls danced round in front of me without their friend to run with. I never saw a single dog which of course made me wish I'd just taken them all out together...lol. I'll persevere with the new regime for a while and see how it goes :)

I'm always finding that!  Sometimes I'll go on the main woodland footpaths, with three dogs then later with Soli because I know by herself I can do it (she's on a flexi then), and use any dogs we meet to work on her issues.  But it's always the same - with the three, who could really use a bit of a socialisation top-up, we never meet any; with Soli, we always meet at least 3!

could you pay a dog walker to help you out?  Or a friend in need of a bit of extra cash who could accompany you to give you the added security of an extra pair of hands.

I don't think you could pay someone enough to walk with my boys :(

Just wanted to say that I think you are doing a really great job. I have to do a very similar thing to you. Muzzled off lead, and on lead around dogs. However I do keep her muzzle on because of these stupid people. Perhaps it is just a little reminder that you need to be ultra careful - not because of you but because of accidents like today.

Your dogs are very lucky to have you.

>Your dogs are very lucky to have you.

I agree,you obviously have a big heart to put so much time effort and patience into your boy and still have 3 other dogs to look after.I understand what you're saying about doing seperate walks,personally i couldnt do it due to all of the reasons you have already stated.

Speaking of muzzles :rolleyes: My girl was set upon by an off lead greyhound wearing a muzzle,last week!The dog and his german sheperd companion came hurtling over and just pounced on my girl pinning her to the ground,i had scratches all down my arm trying to pull him off,my girl was screaming and all the while the owners were stood 15 feet away just watching,i had to yell for them to call their dogs away.Their attitude was that the dog was wearing a muzzle,what damage could he do Idiots!! Like yours, the greyhound seemed to be the instigator and the GSD just followed and barked copying the GH,but not quite so aggressive.

Oh Ktee thats awful :( Thats always my fear with beastly boy, even though he can't bite he could still terrify other dogs and actually still could do harm dunting them, or in a smaller breed like yours he could crush them :(  Mine are never off lead if I think I'm likely to see another dog, but accidents can happen like yesterday...I certainly wouldn't just be standing watching though!

I've been soul searching all day trying to decide if I was wrong, and if I should have had him pts 3 years ago (or do it now). I've came to the conclusion that rightly or wrongly I just can't do it but as supervizsla said I'm going to view this as a reminder/warning to be even more careful and vigilant with him.

I'm going to speak my mind...... cos that's what I do. :-)

You know what worries me most is this dogs breeder wanted to have him put to sleep, that speaks volumes to me, if a breeder who carefully chose a Dam and Sire had pups and raised them would say that, (which is the hardest thing a breeder could ever say) then that is what you should have done. :-(

If he was an only dog, it may be viable for you to continue to handle this situation, I truly feel for anyone who has a dog aggressive dog which no amount of behaviourists, trainers can much improve, I wouldn't personally keep a dog like that, the dogs life is limited to careful management and the owner has a very stressful time out on walks.  A lead and muzzle is a must for a dog like this. It is never safe for it to run free, that's not a good dogs life to me. :-(

But more importantly you have other dogs, dogs that enjoy a good long walk, seperate one to one walks with 'The Beast' are essential, but very tiring for you, and your other dogs will suffer in not getting the looooooong walks they and you enjoy. Splitting yourself in two is darn hard work and what is it benefiting, but 'The Beast'.

I think you need to step back, become unemotional and look at this whole situation. Write a list of the pro's and con's of keeping this dog.  To me the only pro would be that I love him, but I don't think that is enough.

Your other dogs loss of time spent on, would outweigh this one for me.

Sorry, not what you want to hear I know, but I have to be honest with my opinion. :-)

I wish you luck in what ever decision you make.

I am with you on this Carrington.
Most likely as have been in the same situation, where I was advised to have my girl PTS as she was unreliable.
It was years ago and broke my heart but I now realise more than I did then that she wasn't happy, she was a stressed girl to be like that.
I spent a long time (years) getting over it, but I am glad I did what I know was the right thing for her, never mind me.

Karenx

Totally agree with Carrington.

IMO he has had enough time, etc. I would put him to rest if he was mine. Hard as that is. I really feel for the OP.

Hello

It is shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted, but you can usually see very early when a dog is going to be aggressive or dominant, we have a huge dog, its breed Bauceron, used in the past in France as a cow herding dog, when we first had him, on his first vet visit, I inquired as to the best age to castrate him, as I didn't intend to breed him. My vet at the time said 'when he lifts his leg to pee, that will be the time'

I think if I had waited till then, I would have had a huge problem on my hands, (now at 3 1/2 he still doesn'r lift his leg all the wayhe was castrated at 8 months and is an almost gentle giant (50kg) However he still had some 'naughty' puppy traits, when you have a young dog of this size charging towards you and leaning his front paws on your shoulders (he thought he was re-assuring people who weren't quite sure of him) amongst other, very naughty things

I took the plunge and acquired an electronic 'shock' collar, the principal action of this device is that it makes a noise first, then if your dog doesn't respond strait away, you administer the electric shock. In my experience, you only have to do this once or twice. So first the voice, then the electronic noise, and if no results, the electric shock, it was a miracle

It is radical and works on older dogs, my daughter has a rescue pit-bull type dog who has always been aggressive with other dogs, he is also castrated, but she doesn't know his whole history, after getting totally fed up not being able to take him out to enjoy a nice run, she also brought one of these collars. I has worked fantasticly and he can even now go with out a lead, he only very occasionally needs to have the shock treatment. He is much happier and so is my daughter.

There are probably many people who will oppose this method, but I can assure you it works, the dogs are a lot happier as are their owners. They are quite expensive but well worth it

Good luck
Billy

mmm thanks Billy, but I certainly won't be trying an electric shock collar on my boy :(  I believe in positive training methods, in rewarding good behaviour - I couldn't contemplate harming him.

Thanks very much for the other replies, I do appreciate your honesty and part of me agrees with what you say, a large part of me really. However, I just can't do it. I've made appointments twice now at the vets and then backed out. I've been in tears so many times thinking right, thats it, I've got to do it and then not being able to.

I've never hesitated to have a dog pts if it's terminally ill or in pain or it's quality of life isn't what I would wish...and that's the difficult part. Mr Beastly is such a happy dog in all respects apart from the odd time we see another dog. He's a clown, his breed aren't generally playful but he is, he loves squeaky toys. He's also such a cuddle, he loves his mummy and will lie next to me on the sofa with his head on my knee.
He's so happy, how can I put him to sleep :(

This is a real dilemma for me, I agree Carrington that my other dogs would possibly be happier if he wasn't here - but they have a good life just now, they don't know they're missing out on more fun walks.

I am so sorry.....as I said before I've been there and to be honest, it took a few months to actually follow the advise.....Then I found a small lump that became the catalyst.
You probably will do something similar.

Hi Tigger

Sorry if I offended you, the electric shock doesn't 'hurt' them, it just shocks them, makes them stop and think before they go too far.

If your 'positive training methods worked, you wouldn't be in this dilema'

I would much prefer an electronic collar to even beginning to contemplate having such a lovely dog put to sleep

Cheers
Billy

Well everyone is entitled to their opinion of course. I would rather have a dog put to sleep than torture it. I would rather not do either of those things. In my opinion shock collars are torture, not a training method. I'm guessing they do stop unwanted behaviour as the dog is upset and scared so appears to behave, i.e. stops what it was doing and maybe sits /lies down or returns to its owner that it trusts to help it. Your first post proves it doesn't cure the dog, if your daughter has to leave the collar on and still shock her dog occasionally - no, its not for me or my dog.

That's very naughty of you Tigger2, ;-) to pop some photo's of 'The beast' on the forum,(which admin will remove shortly) as it's so hard to be impartial when you see that face looking at you. :-)

I guess from your reply, you will continue on with him, I hope you are lucky and get off with no real incidents. I know he is not a Greyhound but my most frightening experience ever was with a muzzled Greyhound, this Greyhound had a passion for hating other dogs, he really, really hated them, as me and my girl passed he was all but dragging his owner over chomping at the bit to get to my girl, really snarling it was awful, I've met dog aggressive dogs before including guarding breeds and was never as worried as passing that Greyhound, mainly because I had never seen one so hate filled as that before.

It managed to break free one day and attacked a lab, it was muzzled, but it still caused damage, dogs can still attack by pinning down, and attacking with their body weights and worse their nails, it was a horrible experience.

I don't know how strong your boy is but remember when any animal is scared or aggressive the adrenalin pumps and all animals are 2,3,4, times stronger than usual, as long as you can hold him steady and give him your full concentration.

People with dog aggressive dogs put more into them I know and he is probably very well trained, but others don't, there will always be adolescents and badly trained dogs or even other dog aggressive dogs approaching him, please just make sure he never gets loose not just for the sake of other dogs, but also the human beings caught up in trying to seperate dogs who may become injured. I hope that you will be free from incident. In a way you are walking around with a ticking time bomb on a lead, none of us want our dogs to be the ones that get hurt by him. :-(

Just please always take every single precaution to protect over dog owners.

Good luck! :-)

Have you tried a water squirter collar? It worked fantastically on a few dogs I know.

It really isn't safe to use any aversives with aggression issues, it is too easy for the wrong associations to be made between the unpleasant sensation and something near them at the time and turn the aggression onto that, or make their existing problem worse.

I use water with my very confident well balanced but bull headed crew for unnecessary barking, so it definitely is useful to stop behaviours they get a kick out of.

Aversives can have a use under strict and expert guidance to save a situation such as a dog that chases livestock where you want the experience with the livestock to be so unpleasant they never ever want to have anything to do with them again.

I've seen the official training videos that go with the ecollars, and the way the dog yelps and panics when it's given a shock even when it's obeying the instruction convinces me that I would never do such a thing to a dog and I'd have serious doubts about anyone who does.

Besides, even the manufacturers say that they shouldn't be used to correct cases of dog/dog or dog/person aggression.

Electric collars do hurt. Have you worn one & had it used on you ? I have & it bl**dy well hurt even on the lowest setting & it was through a coat !

I think you will find few people on here that would agree with your beliefs that they are "humane"I know they are used a lot in the working gundog world as a "training"aid. But they have no place in the pet world(or working gundog world, but that's another matter)

"I know they are used a lot in the working gundog world as a "training"aid. But they have no place in the pet world(or working gundog world, but that's another matter) "

Are you in America or Europe? I ask because I have working gundogs as do nearly all my friends, and not one of them would consider let alnone actually use the e-collar to train our dogs for working, infact when I was going around distributing leaflets printed by the UK Kennel Club I had more working dog people sign them and return them than any other group of dog owners including pet dog owners who attend a training class I help run.

I've never had one used on me but I have accidently touched electric cattle fencing and that was enough to convince me there is no place for e-collars in dog training.

I beleive they are widely used in the USA in hunting dog circles (gundogs), and that this is leading to a change in temperament in the working line dogs.

This article is interesting on this point:
http://www.ducks.org/Hunting/RetrieverTraining/108/FiveKeyPointsforTrainingRetrievers.html

Here is a good quote from the article found here: http://www.ducks.org/Hunting/RetrieverTraining/108/FiveKeyPointsforTrainingRetrievers.html

"4. Electric Collars

The electric collar, which can create as many problems as it solves, is becoming far too predominant a training tool.

The electric collar is a great training tool in the hands of a good trainer. However, there are astronomically more electric collars than there are good trainers. The truth is: In order to train a dog with the electric collar you must be able to train him without it. The collar does not magically impart to the guy holding the transmitter the knowledge and skills of dog training. Most folks buy an electric collar to solve a basic obedience problem, and generally end up abusing the dog and not solving the problem, or trading one problem for an even bigger one. Proper training can solve nearly all problems in basic obedience, and you don't need an electric collar to do so."

A great article, Barbara. :)

Second that, great article. :)

Hello Brainless

I agree with you about knowing how to use an electric collar aid. My huge 50kg beauceron is very obedient, very polite and gentle, he wouldn't intentionally hurt a flea, however unbeknown to me, my post lady took it upon herself to give him 'titbits' when she delivered my letters, he was only a puppy then and when I found her doing this, she told me that she wanted him to know her and be friendly with her, she never gave him titbits in front of me again but he never forgot and when at 50kg he charges at her post van and when she opens the window to put the letters into our post box, he jumps in. Now he is a very big powerful dog and for some reason when this happens, he doesn't hear anything or any command

We take him to the beach a lot in the winter time with our little pugs, the have a great time and normally we don't have any problems but sometimes he will jump up and put his paws on someones shoulders and peer into their faces which could be quite frightening, it isn't everyone, just certain people and never children. This was spoiling his quality of life and our enjoyment of him
We also have a river close to where we live, he loves water and it is such a joy seeing him splash around

The E collar just kept him in check we don't need to use the electric part any more, just the noise the collar would make before a shock

He is having a great life, I really don't think I could have done this without this training aid

I am sorry but there is nothing in his behaviour that reinforcing basic training would not solve.  also he should not be in a position to charge the post van, or jump on people as he should be under your control (a lead).

Dogs will often try even harder to get the reward they used to get when it stops working.  This is called an extinction burst and is encouraged when he occasionally succeeds in getting his reward, in this case attention when he jumps up.

This certainly is not one of those life or death situations where such a device just might be justified, and then only in expert hands.

I am beginning to give up on this subject, I live on a small country estate, the post lady has a code to come in and drive up to the house and put my mail in my letterbox

I think I would be neurotic if my dog was always within sight, he has a very safe, secure, environment, Walter has his own little social life within this 14 acre world (apart from going to the beach) he pops round to see how the gardener is doing, also says a hello to the house keeper and guardian, I suppose you think I should keep him in a kennel or closed in, he would be very unhappy if this happened

Even a guard dog is required to have a handler when on patrol, Sheep dogs shoudl ahve a shepherd aroudn etc.  A Pet dog should not be unsupervised by it's owner where the public have access.  So yes he should have a secure dog run or part of the property to be kept in when you are not supervising him yourself. 

I can't see how you expect to control him and be sure he isn't being mistreated or teased if you don't.  Even a remote collar needs you to be there.

Your dog is your responsibility, not the Gardeners, housekeepers etc, who might not choose to have a dog around out of choice in their work environment.

Whether a dog weighs 50kg or 20 kg, you should be able to control it without an e-collar.

My 8st 0lb friend has six leos - who weigh in excess of 50 kg.    She can control two of them at a time WITHOUT an ecollar.

Margot

I tried to edit the above post, but was out of time.

What I intended to say was that my friend (with the leos) can control two of them out walking on leads without an e-collar.

It is all in the training - and we are all responsible for our own dogs' training - and that should include ensuring that no-one else - not even the friendly postwoman - is able to train your dog to help her.

Margot

I believe in positive training methods, in rewarding good behaviour - I couldn't contemplate harming him.
me too.

heck I'm not even going to be drawn into commenting on the Electric collars...already enough has been said. Why would anyone want to inflict pain on their best buddy? Beats me.

The problem with positive methods is they work slowly and depend on a hell of a lot of very specific intensive one to one training.

mind you the plus side is spending one to one time with your dog really helps you get to know them very deeply and helps them develop confidence in you.  But  know it's hard..I only have two and it is hard fitting in all the one to on time I'd like to do.

You really do need to devote perhaps at least the next 12 months or years even  to walking this dog alone one to one where you can fully focus on anticipation and  preventing incidents and rewarding good behaviour .

I do not think walking dogs together where one has this type of issue is beneficial in offering the level of success and positive continuity you need. It takes a lot of work and dedication to that one dog as an individual.

Recently I heard of a small young dog getting torn to bits and killed two large tough dogs . Sometimes immature dogs go and bounce over our dogs..it is how they learn to behave and should not be a death sentence.  The fact that you openly accept your dogs could do serious harm and the fact you realise they need a muzzle but are not always using it but instead leaving the safety of other dogs up to chance means it is serious negligence on your part if your dog does actually cause harm .  It is your duty to make sure that does not happen.

There is lots of advice here...all I can add is please do listen to people and take action to make sure no dog actually ends up getting hurt.

Horses for courses - different methods work for different dogs.  But the risks of using an e-collar - especially when dealing with emotional issues such as aggression - FAR outweigh any potential benefits in my mind.  There are simply way too many things that could go wrong - not the least of which is the dog associated the shock with other dogs, as it is typically focused on them when it is shocked for displaying undesirable behaviour.

As with any aversive, electric shocks punish the behaviour - they don't address the underlying emotional problem, which is why there is so much more likely to go wrong, rather than right, when using aversives to train instead of positive methods.  Of course things can go wrong there too - mostly through poor timing - but the consequences aren't typically as pronounced as they can be with aversives.

That is dealing with emotions of course - from what I understand of your post, you have used the e-collar to address run-of-the-mill puppy behaviours, which is IMO total overkill.  Okay, so you've got a very big breed - but many, many people raise the same and larger breeds without needing to resort to an electric shock to train out unwanted behaviours.

Incidentally, you say the method works - but in your example of the pit bull you say that the dog still needs to be occasionally shocked.  That isn't a successful result IMO - it hints at the dog still being aggressive, which means that the underlying emotional problem is still there.  The dog has probably learned, through punishment with the collar, to not display behaviours that betray its emotional state, so it looks like it's sorted when underneath it's anything but.  That's a very dangerous situation - that's a dog that, potentially, could let another dog get too close without giving any hint of how it feels, then only attack when the other dog is close enough to do so.  Of course I can't say that for definite without seeing the dog - no-one on here can - but "I has worked fantasticly and he can even now go with out a lead, he only very occasionally needs to have the shock treatment" distinctly indicates it.

I agree with you Nikita, they have to be used with extreme care, our dog 'Walter' didn't need it more that once on the lowest level, I did try it on myself before using it on him, he was very wayward and I do have a lot of experience training dogs in the traditional method, but some dogs act first and think later, which was the case with Walter. He is a fantastic pet now and in fact chewed his collar up before I could get to him and it one day, however it made him listen and save himself from an accident, so I don't regret it at all

Also my daughters dog, sorry I mis-explained, always has his on when out, just in case, he is a lovely dog, just doesn't like other dogs, he is also 'head-strong' and won't listen once he has his mind made up. this device allows him to have a better quality of life just with using the beeper, I guess sometimes the short sharp shock treatment works when instinct takes over. I love Walter and he is very happy with no hidden problems lurking underneath somwhere.

Yes the photos tug the heart strings - a beautiful looking dog.  However my dog was the victim of a dog aggresive dog yesterday morning.  She has never been keen on the boxers we meet  - she has always been nervous of some dogs - must be something about the body language.  This time the owner first put her dog on the lead - I told her mine was better off the lead - the path had become narrow.  She let hers off too - the result was it attacked mine - not just put her in her place but pinned her to the floor crying.  Then this boxer kept trying to prevent me walking away with my dog by standing in front of her to stop her following me - it kept coming back for more.  The owner called it ineffectually - and walked away quickly.  My dog would have shown her teeth and kept her distance.  Now she will hate boxers even more - she has something real to fear.  I just hope I see this person and her dog in plenty of time to walk away in the opposite direction very fast next time. 

Billy the Kid:

Please try the E collar on yourself - and see how YOU like it!

I had vowed not to post on CD again - but this one has brought me back to the front.    Just try the "pricking" of an Ecollar for 20 seconds -on the highest level - and see how it feels.......

If you are too lazy to train in any other way - or have a dog that does not respond to any other training - well :rolleyes:

Margot

> so it looks like it's sorted when underneath it's anything but.  That's a very dangerous situation - that's a dog that, potentially, could let another dog get too close without giving any hint of how it feels, then only attack when the other dog is close enough to do so.

Exactly my worry too. My other worry is the argument people use about shock collars not being painful - if they weren't, they wouldn't have any effect. There is a video I found on Youtube of a radio show where they tried one out round a - quite large macho - bloke's neck. He obviously found it painful - more so as the settings went up, obviously. Haven't tried one on myself - I don't like pain. :(

my daughter has a rescue pit-bull type dog

If this dog is agressive the rescue should not have rehomed him, and he should never be out without a muzzle and on a lead. One day he will ignore whatever pain the collar puts him under and attack. The pain may even make the attack worse. He is a rescue dog with problems, the collar will simply be masking the behaviour, not curing it. Be certain this dog, if he is as agressive as you have described, will have underlying problems that you are not aware of.

I have found when a dog is casterated they don't cock legs, at least not very often. Its a shame for the dog that you didn't take him to training classes and keep this up at home, taking the time and patience needed to turn him into a well trained dog, rather than resorting to the quick fix of using pain. As to the 'jumping up' you should have stopped this before it became a problem, by training not by shock. it is not radical, it's not a miracle, it is downright cruel and not the way to train a dog. Thats why these awful devices should/may be made illegal.

I'm not really experienced to give much advice on this either I'm afraid. I'm very impressed by your dedication to the Beastly boy and the amount of work you've put in, and I'm sure he repays it in his own way. :) In your situation though my worry would be a similar scenario to what happened but with a smaller dog that could be injured more easily. My only thought - and it's probably no use at all - was, is there a securefield you could rent from a training club or something, or one you could buy? (No idea how much fields cost so don't know if it would be practical - it's something I've been meaning to find out myself). That way the boys could run about without the worries of other dogs suddenyl appearing.

- it's something I've been meaning to find out myself).

Depends on area and type of ground, but agricultural land is anything from £2,000 an acre for poor hilly land (think sheep) to £4,000 or more per acre for good grazing land.

I would hazzard a bet that if you had your own little bit, someone would see you walking, and the next thing the field would become well used by dog walkers, which can be a problem! There are some that think unless land has livestock on it they should be able to walk their dogs over it. :rolleyes:

I am going to get some backs up here, but hey ho.

If a dog is not safe for whatever the reason, it should be under strict control by the owner. If it doesn't like other loose running and having lots of fun and sociable dogs, then take it somewhere else. I'm sick of these people who insist on taking their problem to a local walk where they know they'll meet loads of off lead and boisterous dogs, enjoying themselves and expect those dogs owners to grab their sociable dog and put it on it's leads, because THEY have a problem.

Get your puppies socialised. Get them out of the house and meeting everything and everyone before they are 8 weeks old. Put the damm thing on the floor and off lead.  S*D the vet and his "Keep them indoors till the second jab" rubbish. It is a sad fact, that more dogs loose their lives due to behavour problems than they do from Parvo.

We owned a wonderful rescue dobe bitch, who we adored completely. She had awful fear problems and could be dangerous. If we'd had the money we would of bought a property with fields and woods just to keep her with us and safe. We didn't, so couldn't, and she's no longer with us.

I the same have to say well done for all the hard work you have put in with your dog.
It is hard when you have one 'problem' dog but once you take on a dog you have life long commitment and it;s nice to see an owner who wants to put the time in.

I have to say Spritualist (same as you not wanting to get backs up! :p ) I dont agree with what youve said about letting that young a pup off the lead out of the home, unless you mean for training purposes in the back garden of your home?! Also they would be exposed to some fatal virises if let off before theyre second jab, but thats just me and what I have been taught and believe in! :) I always carry them around and kep them off the floor!! But I do agree with what you say about responsible owners.

Hope this boy can be happy on his walks soon! :)