I think it is up to dog-owners to decide their own way of living with their dogs, it is interesting to read that the majority agree!

I have my dogs around me most of the time-especially since I lost my husband, but I think they are more secure sleeping in their own beds at night, in the kitchen, and I certainly sleep better without their fidgets and snores!  If I am doing something I don't want them involved in,  I just tell them to 'Buzz off' and away they go!

I think for their own sakes, dogs should accept that at times they have to be shut away, as there are some circumstances when it becomes very necessary. When I was caring for my terminally ill husband, we had nurses and doctors in and out regularly, imagine the problems if the dogs weren't used to being in another room, behind a baby gate. As in all these things, a sensible balance is required and we don't do our canine friends any favours, by treating them as humans. Much as we love them, they are animals.:-)

Best wishes
Linda

in answer to the bit about ponies i dont think they ae housetrainable! and i wouldnt fancy a pig on my bed- they stink!

We just "think" we really know and understand dogs, the truth is we really don't..  books apon books are all basic opinions.

my point exactly..althought you made your point you still missed mine.

just another point humans and dogs are similar

My dog and cats are allowed pretty much anywhere nowadays except the kitchen.  I can't stand my cats jumping on the work surfaces.  When their food is being prepared they sit at the kitchen door :-D
The dog sleeps in the bedroom, on the floor, on her blanket - she also has her own sofa in the living room :rolleyes:
So the animals are with me all the time.
It never used to be that way though, when we had more dogs, all apart from Demi (the girl I have now, and our first male) lived in the kennels, which was fine with me, although I was out at all hours checking on them.  It's just easier to have Demi in with me all the time these days, and since she's an only dog, it's probably better for her.

what I am asking for is academic proof from research that this theory has been proved/disproved...   not a link to somesone webiste who is a vet.. where is the concrete evidence... so far we just have a few opinions and alot of people following other people...

it wasnt long ago that i was saying pack theory was "old hat" - because I had been told this by a respected trainer... having now challenged this concept and what I was being 'told'  am not sure I agree....

it wasnt long ago that i was saying pack theory was "old hat" - because I had been told this by a respected trainer... having now challenged this concept and what I was being 'told'  am not sure I agree....


What is pack, what does it mean? In human terms it is family, it is a dog family just like a human family where we have mum, dad, brother, sister etc, etc, we  have pecking orders just the same as dogs though we are not so primative in how we dictate it. (supposedly ;-) )

I'm one of those people who believe that the pack theory does exist to what extent I am not sure but just for examples:

The documented wolf boy, not wolf, but human, was obviously accepted as a baby, toddler by the Alpha bitch, to a pack of wolves the boy should have been an easy meal instead he was integrated allowed to feed, live and roam with them.

He was not allowed due to him being of higher interlect, as a baby/child he would not score highly on that scope, or as suggested in other posts as being something for the wolves to have a paracital attachment, he was accepted as part of the pack, 'family' different species but part of the pack, there was no role for him to fill no other reason to accept him.

The family rabbit can cuddle up to a dog, sleep and eat next to it, why?
The family cat just the same, why?
Because they are accepted as part of the pack, just as the human is,

Pack behaviour does exist a dog will integrate other species into that pack, otherwise the dog would eat the pet rabbit, the dog would kill the pet cat, the wolves would have eaten the wolf boy.

A pack of wild dogs would quite happily kill and eat a human, a domesticated dog will not, I don't believe this is parasitic behaviour but because we are part of it's pack.

what I am asking for is academic proof from research that this theory has been proved/disproved...   not a link to somesone webiste who is a vet.. where is the concrete evidence... so far we just have a few opinions and alot of people following other people...


http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/dominance.htm

http://www.showdogs.co.za/articles/wag_the_dog/dominance.htm

Neither are the actual study but both refer to it and it's authors.

This is going off topic now. If you want to discuss pack/dominance theory, please start a new thread on the Behaviour board.

Ditto Jane :-)

Our puppy has the run of the house when we are in but if i pop out to the shops he is in the kitchen as we have ctas and he can't be trusted to leave them alone when we aren't there!:rolleyes: (too excitable!)

He does sleep downstairs though in his crate at night as we tried him in our room and he jumped on and off the bed all night then proceeded to urinate on our cover!!

He is quite happy in his crate and i think it helps to calm him enough to go to sleep!

He is put in their when we go to bed which is about 11pm and taken out at 6 when we get up to get ready for his first walk!

hi i once read a saying something like "if you are wanting to kennel a dog outside all day and night, seriously consider weather you actually want a dog" i agree with this 100%. maybe not people from this site but i have heard of a lot of people that kennel there dog even just with one and i just feel so sorry for the dog. maybe im just soft with mine but mine get attention all the time. they are my little babys and i could not be witout them. i do let my dogs have the run of the house they follow me everywere and sleep down beside my bed, however i have heard of several people who just keep them in one room,which i would not do and do feel sorry for them, but i guess the dogs gets used to it. i think alot of dog owners out there(not people on this site) get a puppy and love it and then lose interest in it when it gets to a year and dont bother with it anymore.

The reason dogs have been so successful as domestic animals is they are highly adaptable. They can be brought into a home and adapt to the way of life of this home  and so to so many  different lifestyles and each dog can be very happy.

They my dogs lives is yes they are in the house and most of the time they have someone with them..but that is just our life with them how it fits us  and is not a boast or a better way than the way someone else may keep their dog. 

Providing they are kept healthy, get good clean conditions, food water mental and physical exercise and companionship then they are being very well cared for.

Some dogs live very outside lives they get very dirty walks and lots of mucking about in mud and it makes sense not to let them straight in the house upstairs to roll on the beds so they de-mud outside or in an utility room. No one would claim they had a bad life! Maybe many indoor dogs would love to get out more than they actually do. So to be critical of outside dogs is quite unfair really.

There are lots of books saying do this or that...don't let the dogs jump up when you get home, don't let them sit on the sofa or upstairs or sleep on the bed or they will become out of control  alpha dogs etc... but we just do what fits us and we  like them on the sofa and on the windowsill, we and our visitors like them giving a boisterous welcome so we keep these behaviours and just tone it down for certain guests.

Interesting replies,thanks :)

>the point of the thread was to answer Ktee's question about why people didn't feel it necessary to be joined at the hip to their pets!

For starters,*I* dont feel it necessary to be joined at the hip to my dogs,they choose to be with me and follow me around when they so choose.Just because i dont lock them in another part of the house does not mean that i insist they are fused to me,i just dont see the point in it.Like i said,my dogs do not lose hair,one chooses to sleep on the bed,and on the very edge,not under the covers,that i couldnt handle(dirt and such),they dont fidget at night or keep me awake.If i left them in the lounge they would bark at every thing that walked past and would keep us awake all night :rolleyes:

When i'm at home my dogs choose to be with me,which i thought was natural,at least going by the dog owners i know,and when i go out they sleep or go about their normal business and arent bothered at all.

Someone said our grandparents,parents would have mostly had outside dogs,or something to that affect.Well,once again this has not been my experience...My grandparents always had dogs and they always lived inside and slept on their bed,same with my parents,no one in my family ever had "outside" dogs,they were always and have always been part of the family.

Personally i hate dog hair everywhere,which is why i will always stick to the non shedding breeds,that way i will never have to face the dilemma of having to worry about hair here there and everywhere!

It's funny how the perception of certain breeds is inside or outside too.

When I was a child breeds like GSD's and Rotties I would have expected to just naturally be outside as guard dogs and most that I knew waaaay back then were, also the farm BC's were always outside, of course nowadays I wouldnt expect them to be so much. ;-)

As a child (in the 60's) I don't recall many of the dog people I knew allowing their dogs upstairs, it just wasn't done.

Though the Rough Collies I grew up with would often sneak upstairs and be found sitting next to my bed or one of my brothers, but mum did not agree with it.

I think we have got soppier with our animals and I also think that may be to do with more and more female owners of course we mother everything :-D

It doesn't bother me in the slightest how others live with their animals, as long as they are happy and loved that is the most important thing. :-)

I don't think flea preventatives were so good in the past and no Dyson type cleaners or automatic washing machines if muddy paws got on the bed sheets...it was hard enough cleaning up after people without cleaning up mud and dog hairs. I only knew a couple of people with dogs and those dogs were kept outside most of the time and in the kitchen or porch areas and came in the downstairs rooms of the house in the evenings when the family were relaxing together all the jobs done and the dogs  had self cleaned .

Although the dogs were kept outside most of the day the families spent much much more time outside too. People just live inside much more these days and so the dogs do too.

>Personally i hate dog hair everywhere,which is why i will always stick to the non shedding breeds,that way i will never have to face the dilemma of having to worry about hair here there and everywhere!

I thought you had border terriers? That's what your profile says, anyway. The Border Terrier club website says
"Another common misconception people have about Border Terriers coats, is that they think because they are stripped twice a year the dog will not moult or shed hair. This is a complete fallacy, by stripping you will reduce the amount of hair moulted by the dog but you will still get dog hair around the house, on your clothes and in the car!"

Yes,jeangenie they lose hair,just like us,but i couldnt comapre them to ,say,your dalmations or gsd's or dogs like that.To be honest i lose more hair than my dogs do.When i think of shedding breeds it's the shorthaired ones where the hair weaves it's way in and gets stuck everywhere.My friend has a yellow Lab and if you sit down on her lounge with black pants on you'll get up with a layer of lab hair on your butt.Breeds that shed like that just cant be compared to border's.

Talking of hair! :-)

Have you all been in your rooms on those really sunny days when the light reflects all the hairs and dust floating in the air, I groom my girl twice a day outside, but in having laminate flooring she can walk in the house afterwards and I can still see hairs falling off her everytime she moves, unfortunatey laminate is fantastic for cleaning but bad in leaving hairs and dust just to float.  I have my mum and her pack drive over almost every day for a nice country walk and I literally sweep my flooring 10 times a day!

Even after all that cleaning I still see hairs and dust floating, it just made me really think especially having children of how much of that stuff we must breathe in, my girl just moved on the sofa and I watched all the hair and dust float from her, (on those sunny days) the thought of breathing that stuff in that we usually don't see, put me off for good ever allowing a dog upstairs. (Unless ill etc)

To be honest it is nothing compared to other polutants we breath in (probably helpos strenghten our immune systems), but I too prefer to reduce the stuff I breath in at night while I sleep.

Yep, immune systems need dust, hair, bugs, dirt, germs etc, etc, etc, to develop into healthy immune systems. 

Half the problem with health these days IMO is too much cleaning creating sterile environments which is not good for the body.  It's trying to get that balance, a little bit of everthing and not too much of anything.

Most of the "dust" you see floating is a lovely combination of dead skin cells, and dust mites and their poo :D

> Yes,jeangenie they lose hair,just like us,but i couldnt comapre them to ,say,your dalmations or gsd's or dogs like that.To be honest i lose more hair than my dogs do.When i think of shedding breeds it's the shorthaired ones where the hair weaves it's way in and gets stuck everywhere

Maybe dogs even within a breed differ, but my friend has a border terrier that sheds like nobody's business, especially compared to my gsp. Maybe it's because Dorain's hair's so much shorter - sticking to stuff is the main problem with it. Duibh The Flatcoat COVERS the carpet in hair, and there are daily floating bundles of hair on the laminates. Never got that with just the gsp. Even taking into account each hair's a lot shorter he just doesn't seem to shed anything like as much - as either of them.

I do keep my dogs in different areas of the house.  My 15 Year Old, Blind Springer Spaniel, DOES NOT go near stairs.  We allowed her to, untill she kept falling down them and popping joints out of place.  It isnt because we dont like her upstairs or in the rec room, its for her safety.  Before she lost her sight, there were many a nights when I woke up to use the washroom, and she would be laying on the bath mat. 
My one Min Pin is in my room.  This is because she sleeps in my bed.  She is allowed around the house during the day, but is not allowed to play with the springer.  She is just to bouncy, and nippy as she is a pup, and I do not want a dog fight.  They do go for walks together, and the do get to socialize together IF I am there watching every move.  That to is about safety.
The other Min Pin sleeps in the living room.  Thats her spot.  She also is allowed anywhere in the house, and has just chosen the living room as her place to be. 
So really, there are rules in place for each dog, and it is dependant on the dog.  Some of them, like the springer has a bit more rules, but it just breaks my heart to see her penned when she pops a joint out, and when she has to be on pain meds. 

my dogs arent ever allowed in the kitchen and know not to cross the threshold.  We have a tiny kitchen and it just doesnt work. Other than the only other place they arent allowed is our bedroom.  We have a stairgate across the door so they are still able to see us and wake me up if they are sick etc overnight.  The only reason for not letting them in the bedroom is that its the cats sanctuary, its the place they can go to where there wont be a dog vying for space.

Other than that, they would normally get shut away if my nephew comes to visit, he is only 4 and I dont expect him to know how to treat dogs so everyone is happier that way.

Well, it's each to their own isn't it?  Different people have different ways of bringing up dogs.  That doesn't make any of it right or wrong!  (Within reason of course, abuse and neglect being the exceptions)

My family are very much of the dogs outside mentality and in saying that they have the healthiest dogs, never having a day's illness in their lives, never having behaviour problems, etc, etc, etc, living to a ripe old age on scraps and this and that.

I sometimes wonder is it healthy for dogs to be in human's pockets all the time? 

I go for balance, I like my dogs with me, and I also like to give them and me space.  I like to encourage independence as well as togetherness.  My 2 live indoors; have the run of downstairs but not upstairs.  When OH's away, I sleep downstairs with the dogs. :-D

I sometimes wonder is it healthy for dogs to be in human's pockets all the time? 

Or better still the other way around :-)

Mitz our SBT has full run of the house when we are there apart from our Bedroom as we dont want her thinking our bed is hers! ;)
And we are slowly training her to stay in the front room when were not there.

I love the fact she follows me everywhere and I mean everywhere, if I open the back door or she hears it, she is there like a shot to come and help me put the washing out, or rather drag it round the garden in the dirt!  :d :D
I couldnt imagine not having her by my side all round the house, she always lays on me at night and nicks my seat when I go to the loo, but she is my treasure and if she didnt greet me with a paw either side of my head and licking my whole face with her tail going crazy then I would be so gutted!

She is only allowed on the bed at weekends as she loves a good cuddle between me and my OH, and she can sit on any sofa she wants, she knows we have preference in the house and she has boundaries which she is happy to obey!

I think people who have dogs but say they cant go here, they cant touch that, they cant come in here, why get a dog? If its for medical reasons theres restrictions then obviously thats OK, but to have so many boundaries cant be fun for the lil doggie when all he wants is to be as close to you as possible all the time, you should be honoured he or they love you so much! 

>I think people who have dogs but say they cant go here, they cant touch that, they cant come in here, why get a dog?

That's been explained by many people further up the thread. Would you have a horse or a chicken in your bedroom? If not, what's the difference between one type of animal and another?

I wouldnt mind having a chicken or a horse for a pet! :d :D Probably wouldnt let them in my bedroom tho!  :p

I meant more round the house anyway JG, like I said I fully understand people not wanting them in bedrooms because you sleep in your bed and no one wants hairs wafting up your nose! But why not the rest of the house, just letting em follow you around cant be that bad!
And I know its been explained but Im having a say on what I think. :)

Tonight mine has the scent of fox or cat poo still lingering despite cleaning.  Rather leave that downstairs thanks.  When she is clean she smells great - not like my old dog who constantly ponged - he was long haired and male - do male dogs smell more?  I am sure he dribbled down his beautiful feathering! 

To my nose yes.