I thought the point of the thread was to answer Ktee's question about why people didn't feel it necessary to be joined at the hip to their pets! ("I guess my question is why?  Why do owners segregate their dogs from themselves and the rest of the household?") ;)

All views are interesting - what's yours?

Exactly, Jeangenie, there has ALWAYS been a point to this thread :) I don't choose to give my view today.

Fair enough. :)

I have mentioned keeping my dog in the utility room - that is when I go out or go to bed.  The rest of the time she is with us.  She is partial to the odd chew and goodness knows what she would get up to left alone with the run of the house.  We don't want her upstairs - for the same reasons many of you have said.  I do have my granddaughter staying here sometimes and when I can't supervise 100% my dog goes out to the garden or utility room.  However my problem is now that she does not want to go into the utility room ever since something frightened her some weeks ago.  She is getting worse despite daps, valerian drops, carbohydrate extras, radio noise.  We got back the other night to find that she had tried to eat her way into the house causing alot of damage to the door and frame.  If we left her in the house she may have panicked and tried to get out another way - there is no question about it - the utility room is the place for her when she is alone in the house - no other room is suitable.  But we have a huge dilemma at the moment.  Getting her used to a box for a den now.  Don't know what else to try next.

I think the high number of posts on the topic indicate that it is a popular discussion. Hmm perhaps

Popular posts don't often come from the best questions or ones  of popular discussion, certainly not here on champdogs IMHO :-)  They are OFTEN the most controversial or provocative. NO?

The point of my comment was that although most threads have a point the open post wasn't " really" being honest in my opinion :-) an unbiased question showing no opinion.    My interpretation rightly or wrongly is that the posting in a round about way suggested it odd to have dogs unless they are around you most of them time. 

>My interpretation rightly or wrongly is that the posting in a round about way suggested it odd to have dogs unless they are around you most of them time. 

Not even a very round about way! But we'll let it pass. :) Life's too short.

:-) :-)   (Just catching up wiuth CDs as been good over the weekend and getting on with things)

You just answered that yourself, natural company for them is each other, as I am a human being that likes my own space. 

My dogs also like their own space.  It is very rare for them to choose to share each others beds.  When together they will lie around companionably, but they do not do close contact very often except in the back of a car or when crated (when space is limited), again I expect it is so they do not get too warm.  I notice other breeds love to 'Pile' cuddling right up in a tangle of bodies.

Yes I agree as Moose and Dudley often go of for quiet time on their own in the boot room where they sleep at night. They are allowed in the kitchen/dining room and lounge when we are in and in our bedroom only to say hello in the morning or if they are allowed their time on the bed when it is bed clothes wash day :)

The cats are allowed on most places bar our bedroom as they are banned :D

As I said my dogs have the run of the house but don't sleep in my bedroom, one sleeps on the landing and one sleeps in the hall, their choice as I leave all the doors open.

A dog does NOT see humans as part of their pack. Their pack consists of other dogs. :)

My pack of 7 BSD have a dog room and paved dog yard with heated kennels and runs for when we are not around to supervise or when we get 'non doggy' visitors. When we are at home then they can come in to the kitchen and dining room too. Finally when we are all ready to settle for the evening then everyone comes into the lounge for a cuddle. I have my 'oldies' upstairs in the bedroom with us but the rest sleep downstairs in the dog room.

this arrangement keeps the mess and mud (particularly in Winter !) confined to a smallish area of the house which is fully tiled so is easy to clean - it also means that I always have somewhere 'presentable' through the day for any visitors.

yvonne

Yep have had the kitchen floor tiled and the walls up to four foot six all the way around.  Still spend a lot of time wiping down kitchen units, and white goods. 

Yes this is very important for me as a cat breeder -a presentable, clean room with either only tiny dogs in, or no dogs at all (i.e. the little ones can be removed if needs be) -I often have kitten buyers to visit of course and not everyone who comes for a kitten is going to enjoy large dogs. Malinois also appear quite scary when people arrive as they do bark and guard so most non-dog people do not WANT to meet them, even though they are friendly once they meet people up close.

my 4 dobes and 2 crested live in the house ..... all of it...lol

Our 4 danes live all over the house i do wish i had trained them to stay in certain areas as at times you cant even have a wee in peace without one of them trying to drink out the toilet bowl.....:rolleyes: (at the same time!)

Since 3months ago they are not allowed on the bed anymore apart from it was getting cramped and i wash my sheets every 3 days, hoover the floor daily i watched a programme about bed mites and that was it OFF.......

ha ha ha sound like my house...!!!

i have an 'audience' when I have a bath!!!

edited to add

I do limit my bed to 1 dobe and one crested on rotation....  living in a bungalow I feel safer with a dobe on the bed when the windows are open....   yeah any excuse.... ha ha

I have 2 shih tzu's, which follow me everywhere, bath, toilet etc.. they have the run of the house and sleep on my bed too!!

We do exactly the same as Yvonne aka Trevor :-)

Stacey x

I quite agree they see me as a pack leader as much as brighton has a tower....

I disagree LOL

edited to add this reply was to the post that dogs do not see humans as pack leaders?

says who?  wheres the evidence?

The pack leader theory has been well and truly disproved -it's old hat, not relevant today -dogs know they are dogs and we are humans and dogs and humans are not in a pack together. :)

I think the human pack leader theory has been disproved, dogs aren't that daft they know we are not dogs.

That said they are pack orientated animals and are best managed using those tendencies and natural behaviours.  They understand hierachy and respond to cues using the need to fit into their place in it.

can you send me a link to the this?  I would like to read it and make my own decisions?  has then been published in academic papers OR is this what people have red in books or been told by trainers, behaviourists etc?

I know when I was doing my HNC (now FDSC) in Cb and Training it was being 'discussed' as "old hat" but nothing had be proven... mind you this was 2 years ago and I have not kept on top of new research and development so I would be interested if you could point me in the direction

Here is one article that looks at this issue: http://www.mmilani.com/hollistic-animal-behavior2.html  though I have read a study that is far more specific.

They don't see humans as 'pack leaders' any more than they see cats as 'pack leaders'.

Yep, they respond because they are pack animals to dominant/apeasing body language from other species etc, so we can use these responses to train them and to integrate tehm nto our lives.  It is this very adaptability that makes this possible.

Also they learn what is to their benefit.  They are the consumate opportunitic parasite, though we may see the relationship as simbiotic.

>They are the consumate opportunitic parastie, though we may see the relationship as simbiotic.

An excellent description! One of the best I've ever come across. :)

oh sorry missed this one

could you please explain this in plain english so I can understand where you are coming from?i get enough of this academic speak at work each day and do wish people would just say what they mean...of course I might not speak for the majority - just me...

Dogs with their long assocuation with man have learnt to press our buttons to theri benefit.

In anture amny creatures live relying on other creatures.  the relationship can be parasitic (they extract what they need without any regard to whether this is harmful to their victim/host.  Or in a sybiotic relationship each derives benefit from the other.

For example some animals remove parasites from larger animals, which is beneficial to them both, oen if freed of parasites and the other has a food source and maybe protection.

Hi Sara, :-)

Do other dogs not count as company? Do you think they need human company all the time? hmm they are dogs after all. A lot of people seem to over look this at times.   The dogs are sleeping how are they going to need human company at bed time. Mines are happy sleeping all curled up together.

How do you think they survived when they were wild animals :rolleyes::rolleyes:

our pet dogs have not been in the wild - well not unless mine sneak out when I am asleep.... I know what you are getting at but 'our dogs' have been domesticated.

I personally think that mine follw me about because they want to be near me at that particular moment in time in accordance with thir needs.  Mine are all asleep now on the sofas and I have just been to top my drink up and no followers...Dogs have needs as we do and I think they choose when to draw on those needs...

does that make sense?  I dont think they need human company all the time but again I am commenting on my dogs that have either been with me from birth or 7 weeks not resuce dogs that might act differently e.g seperation anxiety

I know what you are getting at but 'our dogs' have been domesticated.


Of course they have been domesticated BUT to your own house hold lives NOT what one person may believe is right. Most of us with have slight variations of our dogs lifestyles. It doesn't make it wrong or a home any less suitable that one who has the dogs in the bedroom does it ;-)   because you have domesticated them doesn't mean that fundamentally they wouldn't cope like they had or would in the wild. I think we under estimate them at times.

I totally agree about their needs, I have a very open plan house so put a baby gate on the kitchen entrance when I leave the room some sit at the gate till I come back. If I peeked my head around the corner they wouldn't be sitting crying for me, they probably went and played or fell asleep.

Mines are the same will sit up on the family room couch as I walk back and forth they never bother.

I think my point is that IF ( and I say if) someone thinks that dogs should be around people 24 /7 because they need to be, I would then say that would be a little silly..   :-)

>I think my point is that IF ( and I say if) someone thinks that dogs should be around people 24 /7 because they need to be, I would then say that would be a little silly..  

I couldn't agree more. I would think it unhealthy for a child to be with adults 24 hours a day, let alone a dog!

I always laugh at the pack theory dogs eat last they go thru doors last the age old things, my dogs do what i want them to do when i want them to do it lol...its not always convienient to do it that way...

I honestly do say it comes down to basic manners, if my dog hasnt the manners to walk properly on the lead he then gets learned to and its nothing about he wants to forge ahead due to trying to be pack leader...

the dominant bitch in my lot prefers to walk behind everyone else when on lead.  I say ti is so that she doesn't get bumped by the other three, but I suspect it is so I can't see what she is doing and she can pick stuff up quickly without me seeing.

Out of 4 danes the dominant bitch doesnt even attempt to get on my bed if she was in the pack leader theory you would think she would bag top spot when in fact its the 2nd to last dane that causes sleepless nights!! and shes so far removed from any pack leader status its laughable...

I always laugh at the pack theory dogs eat last they go thru doors last the age old things, my dogs do what i want them to do when i want them to do it lol...its not always convienient to do it that way...


I have to agree really  some of the things people have written about dogs behaviour etc makes me cringe.  One of the reasons I avoid the Behaviour section.  :-)  Look at us with kids and they can talk, we haven't got that right either ;-)

you have missed my point!

but last time I looked 'our dogs' (not just mine) were domesticated... I have socialised minedogs of today, pet dogs are not wild animals they have been domesticated over thousands of years...

I also said in my post that I (personally) did not think dogs need to be around people 24/7

maybe those dogs and they do exist, feel they have to be around people 24/7 because this is what they have learnt

you have missed my point! NO I haven't :-) quite the opposite.   I am making my point :-D :-)

pet dogs are not wild animals they have been domesticated over thousands of years...
Hmmm not sure about thousands of years. Some slept and work outside just a few decades ago without any human intervention at all. Whilst WE may have " domesticated" out dogs it still does not mean they HAVE to be with people 24/7.. domesticating dogs over hundreds of years doesn't not take away there genetic make up.

We just "think" we really know and understand dogs, the truth is we really don't..  books apon books are all basic opinions.

We have domesticated them so much half of them still can't cope inside with the central heating. Just a simple fact that it isn't so simple.

Not getting into a debate with you of course :-) I am mearly pointing out that the statement in the opening post is pretty far from the norm.  The replies prove it :-)

I would say that a large portion of people my fathers age, and definitely my grandparents generation consider that a dogs place is outside, my Dad still can't understand why having a kennel I allow them inside!!!. 

In fact in many countries the idea of indoor dogs is reserved for lap dogs, and the people who keep such are perceived as a little strange.

The idea of dogs entirely as indoor pets is a very recent one in terms of of our long association with the species.

When some friend's of mine got a dog (I sourced them as Boston terrier from a respected breeder over 1 years ago).  The Mans mother said she would leave the home she shared with them if they brought a dog to live in the house.

She very quickly came round and spoils Max rotten and even allows him to sleep on her bed when they go away.

She admits that she could never have believed she could become so attached to a house dog, as previously she had only eve had and known outdoor dogs, and felt about them the same I suspect most people do about their horses.

How many people have a horse for life?  It is usual to sell them when they are outgrown, or to have them on loan etc.

There are miniature horses and small Shetlands that would physically be able to be kept indoors, being smaller than some large breeds of dogs, same with sheep and pigs (despite films like Babe), but we don't as a rule keep them as indoor pets and are as a result not do attached to them.

I used to breed and show rabbits, and was quite attached to my show buns, but generally I still view Rabbits as livestock in the same food category as chicken and I like eating someone else's.  Yet more and more I see people categorise our delicious long eared friend in the same category as Cats and Dogs.

I don't think the animals intelligence has anything to do with it either, as Pigs are as intelligent as Dogs and Rabbits as bright as Cats.

> I would say that a large portion of people my fathers age, and definitely my grandparents generation consider that a dogs place is outside, my Dad still can't understand why having a kennel I allow them inside!!!. 

That has just reminded me, I'd completely forgotten, but a few years ago I was taking to my great uncle, who said that my great grandfather (his father) didn't think dogs should be in the house at all - he thought it was cruel to keep them inside at all! He was from the west highlands of Scotland and the dogs they'll have had will have been working sheepdogs as he was the son of a crofter's shepherd.

> There are miniature horses and small Shetlands that would physically be able to be kept indoors, being smaller than some large breeds of dogs, same with sheep and pigs (despite films like Babe), but we don't as a rule keep them as indoor pets and are as a result not do attached to them.

Apparently my great grandmother had a pet pig that used to sleep in front of the range in the kitchen at night! This is mother's father's side btw (gt-gfather I just mentioned was mother's mother's! Don't imagine he would have thought pigs should sleep indoors either ;) ).

I would say that a large portion of people my fathers age, and definitely my grandparents generation consider that a dogs place is outside, my Dad still can't understand why having a kennel I allow them inside!!!. 

Yes, Barbara, my Dad is exactly the same, he thinks I'm ridiculous having my girl indoors when I've no need to.  His and Mums dog always had the run of the kitchen and laundry room (never anywhere else in the house) and he didn't like that!  Their cat isn't allowed anywhere else in the house either.  Mum would allow them anywhere, she was brought up with animals in the house, but Dad's families pets were always outdoor animals.

Here is another article from the site I posted one from http://www.mmilani.com/dogsmart.html  I am having real fun reasding these articles, definately saved to my favourites.

My Newfie has the run of the house downstairs but we have a stair gate to stop him from going upstairs.
He has his fav places and sleeps in the coldest place he can find.
He does love doorways though and does the lay flat and I will not move game at times :)
We also built a patio area and fenced it with a gate access to the garden as we have a large natural pond.
He has managed to find it though and looked and smelt like a bog monster!! I can still remember my father face when he came in and left the house in a mess :) Guess who had the job of bathing and cleaning the house!!

Our dogs sleep in the kitchen/conservatory at night. When we go out they are limited to the hall and kitchen/conservatory as the young one can't be relied on not to chew things he shouldn't and the limited areas are puppy proofed. When we are home our older GR has free range of the living rooms, dining room and aforementioned areas as he is totally trustworthy but the pup only comes into other areas if someone is there to supervise him.

My daughter lets the dogs into her bedroom but not on the bed and only if she is in there too. The dogs do not have access to our bedroom - or very rarely :)

Harley the GR likes his own space at times and will often ask to go out of the room where we are all sitting and go lie on the cold floor tiles in the conservatory. Cooper takes himself off to bed around 10 0'clock most evenings and only stirs when he is taken out before we go to bed.

The door to the garden is open in all but the very worst of weathers and Cooper spends a lot of his time sunning himself on the decking wheras Harley prefers to find the shade to lie in - or take a dip in one of the ponds :D

We have a very large log cabin in the garden and if the door is open both dogs will spend time in there rather than in the house.

As others have said - my dogs are a large part of my life, and valued family members, but they are not the be all and end all of my existence :)

My dogs have always had run of the house and that is the way I like it. I have no children and so I don't see why they can't be around all the time. I used to have 12 dogs all inside and it was fine.
I now have 8 dogs and 2 of them sleep in a crate overnight but this is due to the fact they would be bouncing around all night.
My 2 oldies sleep on the bed and the rest find themselves a place at night either in their beds or on the sofa.
I have a dog run for when I am mopping floors but once dry the dogs are straight back in.

I think it is each to their own, a dog will adapt to where-ever it is kept or allowed to sleep.

I personally don't like dogs on the bed or upstairs, that is nothing to do with pecking orders etc, but pure and simply to do with the fact, I don't want hairs upstairs or even downstairs in my best lounge. ;-)

Apart from that my girl is with me everywhere else in the house whichever room I am in she is always with me always chooses to follow and sleep where I am working or relaxing.

I do actually believe there is a closer bond to a dog that lives in the home, snuggles up to you on the sofa or at your feet, to one living in a kennel. It is something I have found to be with myself anyway.

A few years back my mum broke her leg and so I had her stay with her 5 dogs (at the time, now there are more ) as obviously she could not walk them so she came to stay with me, now these dogs have always been sofa dogs even though most were working dogs, but as I had a toddler at the time my mum's dogs were kept in the kitchen, conservatory and were not given the run of downstairs or the sitting room.  After a few days I fnd that those dogs were just not thought of the same they purely became just dogs, still loved, but not quite as closely to me anyway as the dogs that would sit on my knee.

They were still in the house, not even outside in a kennel but that bond felt differently somehow. However it did not make the dogs act any differently, still as obediant, still as loving, dogs will adapt to anything, but it certainly made my feelings not as close.

I haven't read the replies yet, but I have to say I'm with you (couldn't say anything else really when the dogs have the run of the house and sleep in my bedroom :D ). One is asleep on his back on the futon next to me as I type - think the other is on the downstairs sofa... They are restricted to downstairs with a dog gate if I go out though. And Duibh is put in the dining room after walks sometimes till he dries off - to stop him spreading mud all over the house after he's leapt in everything muddy and wet that he can find - there are a few large splodges of mud on carpet and walls from when I failed to do that. :rolleyes: (Alternative would be washing him every time - and he would NOT like that).

I think kennelling is something that's sometimes done by people with working dogs or a lot of show dogs - but they generally kennel two together so they have company IME. I can see it would, practically, be very difficult to be followed everywhere by a lot of large dogs. :D I have friends who restrict the access of their dogs to bits of the house - but one lot have 4 goldens and the others have 4 flatcoats and a golden, so it's probably chaos control. :p I'll ask them next time I see them, if I can think of a tactful way. ;) I don't understand getting a dog as a pet then not allowing it in the house though, I have to confess. Now I'll have a look what everyone else ahs written...