Hi , myself and my partner are looking to get two boy rotweiler pups but was wondering if all breeders are aloud to dock there tails ?

No breeders are allowed to dock their tails.

oh, so are they aloud to have the puppies docked for showing? 

Since April of this year it has been illegal for ANYONE (even vets) to dock ANY breed of dog unless certain evidence has been presented to the vet to say that they are either certain breeds of Gundogs or Terriers which will be used for working.  You will not be able to buy any Rotties (that have been born in the UK since April) which are docked.  Dogs born and docked abroad and then imported into the UK after that date may still be shown at KC shows in the UK providing that there is no entrance fee for the public at that show.

Debs

No, they're not allowed to dock their tails for any reason.

Since April not even vets are allowed to dock their tails.

Anyone offering you a docked Rottweiler puppy born recently means that you should run out of the door and don't go back there!!

this is an interesting questions...

alot of people (myself) included have not stressed or explained this on our websites - we just assume most people would know about the new law...

makes you think

Unfortunately they don't as was found out by the woman who went to court for docking her pet Rottie's!!

Maybe it is something that we should all highlight on our websites!!

My thinking exactly!  I didnt hear about the litter of Rotts - what area was that?

Must say all of the enquiries I have had lately about 1% did NOT know about the new law - however it did not bother them or affect their opinion of the breed

In December 2006 a local veterinarian was struck off for docking a litter of Weimarners - it was in all our local papers. 

Docking was still legal then?

I am sure the man in the street not involved in the world of dogs shows will not know that docking has been banned, though many believed it was banned when lay people were stopped from doing it.

thinking about it....

having got KC registered docked breeds... did I receive a letter or mailshot from the Kennel Club about the new law?  NO

neither did I receive such info from my vet..

more food for thought!

This is probably a simple answer but i have wondered about dogs that are legally docked by means of injury and whats the stance?

mygirl - in the case of injury, the veterinarian carrying out the surgery, has to declare the reason.

Whether it was still legal or not, I don't know.  I know a bill was passed in September 2006 that had reference to docking.   I'll have a look at work and see if I can find it.  He was a very well known vet, and was most definitely struck off by the RCVS, I don't believe it was permanent, and I can't tell you how long for, but my own vet told me that the reason he had refused to dock for quite some time, was because he didn't want to be the vet who was used to make an example of.  I could even tell you the vets name (but won't of course, it did him enough harm.)

I would have thought if dogs were legally docked through injury there would be notes held at the vets to account for this?

The new law has exemption for dogs whose tails need to be amputated due to injury. The vet will give the owner an official letter of confirmation of the reason for the surgery.

It was still legal to dock then, BUT the RCVS did not want their members to do it, so most vets had refused for years. The CDB of course held a list of vets still willing to dock but many wanted it kept quiet that they did.

Yeah it was against the RCVS code of conduct to dock dogs that weren't intended to work.

I feel sorry for the vet that they struck off though, he was hardly the only one! It's a bit like banning someone from driving for 10 years for doing 32mph in a 30 zone.

Not even that the law was changed to only allow vets to dock so a bit much their professional association stopping them from doing something they are legally entitled to.

A dock that is done due to an injury isn't a dock, it's an amputation. One of my bitches had to have her tail amputated at 5 days old due to an over zealous mum. The vet didn't call it a dock then (9 years ago) He said it was definately an amputation. A letter was sent to the kennel club and permission given to show her, so I feel that as long as the vet is sure that it is an injury there shouldn't be a problem.

I saw a show type English cocker spaniel puppy the other day.
Now seeing as a pup docked before April would now be nearly 7 months.
This pup was nearer to 16 weeks , deffinatly not big enough to be 7 months and it had a docked tail!!!!
So it is still going on!!
Lea :)

Couldn't you argue that the cocker was intended for working?  Surely a 'show' cocker can still be a working dog?  And if I understand the legislation correctly, it is still legal to dock working spaniels etc.  Hopefully someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

Yep they are still able to dock cockers but they have to be proved to be going to working homes!!  Though a "show type" cocker is less likely to go to a working home than the "working type".  This is where it all falls down and also how can even people with a working background prove that all are going to go to working homes?  There are always working gundogs advertised on the internet so I doubt that the call for them in working homes is as big as the numbers bred.

working spaniels and show spaniels have a diffrent type of pedigree if a show spaniel gets enough ccs to become champion on the pedigree it will say ie ch bumble bee working spaniels have trials and if they win a field trial the pedigree will say ie ftw bumble bee ftw means field trial winner if they are champion of a field trial it will say on the pedigree ie ftch bumble bee ftch means field trial champion so people who want a spaniel for work will look for a working line like rytex etc

Yes but if a show type breeder really wants their pups docked they may ensure they fulfil the requirements and maintain they are wanting to work the pups. 

There is nothing to stop someone working show bred spaniels, though a serious trialer would be looking for something else.

I know people in some of the other Spaniel breeds that still do some kind of work picking up etc.  It does seem to be less of a split with Clumbers, Welsh Springers, Fields and Sussex, not like Working cockers and Springers which are almost different breeds.

In fact in English Springers you could almost say they are 3 different breeds.  True working lines, those who look like them but are bred for the pet market primarily, and the show types.

Bill Ironside occasionally works his American cockers, doesn't he? It was this that kept them in the Gundog group instead of being moved into the Toy group with the Cavaliers. So I daresay a show spaniel breeder could also do a bit of picking up with his dogs and be able to prove they work.

But he wouldn't be able to show them at most shows, though.

Most shows don't charge the public an entrance charge, even the champ shows.

I was told that to prove the pups are likely to be worked, the breeder has to show some sort of evidence that the dam is worked - a shotgun certificate, or gamekeeper's certification etc.

Yep they do! 

I was out driving tonight and saw a young boxer puppy with a docked tail. By the time I got around again they were gone ...but definately a pup not older than 14 or 16 weeks.

see that the problem... working dogs can be docked but who the heck knows which pups are good enough to work, how can you assess this at 2-4 days?  so what do you say dock all "!working dogs"  Boxers are working dogs (well group anyway) I have never seen a boxer that works!!

this is where this new law is a load of ****. 

It doesnt make any sense... its cruel to dog, if  its that cruel than ban it all together...

btw I own docked breeds and am pro docking incase that hadnt been out across lol

Agree, the law has loopholes - I was at a show not that long ago with my docked breed dog (he was docked 3 years ago, obviously when still legal) - anyway, a woman who we see quite regularly and who apparently is somebody who is allowed to now dock 'working' dogs, if the owner has proof the dog will actually be 'working' - she actually offered to dock any puppies I might breed in future (whether working or not), she said, just bring them to me, no problems.   I don't intend to breed anyway, so won't be taking her up on her offer (I doubt I would anyway), but how many people would go ahead and take their litter to someone like this - a person willing to put down that the whole litter has been docked as 'working' and that she has seen proof as such...
  Hilda

Thing is no-one can know which pups in a litter amy be worked, so the proof needed is that the person is that the person works their dogs or that the pups ahve parents that work, or they belong to a gundo club, so practially anyone who still wants to dock theri gundogs and terriers if determined willb e able to ahbve the pups docked.

Of course this won't apply to breeds from other groups like Working or Pastoral, toy or Utility.

Mine is a Pastoral breed!

Well then the person is talking out of their backside as only some Gundog and terrier breeds can be exempt from the docking ban for working reasons, and the procedure has to be done by a Vet and the dog must be identified as having been legally docked, so some sort of letter from the Vet would need to go with each pup sold..

I do wonder how many people get away by not abiding by the laws though - like I know of someone who has docked his own litters in the past, docked his son's litter this year, and has also docked a friend's litter, now he is not a vet, but he has got away with it. 

Yes because there was no requirement to prove who by and why the docking was done, and frankly most experienced breeder did a far better job of it than most vets.

Now anyone with a docked pup will be required to prove it was exempt from the ban for working reasons.  Of course as with all laws enforcement may or may not occur.

I learned something else today about docking; not only does the breeder have to show written evidence that the pups to be docked are destined to be worked, but those pups also have to be microchipped at the same time - the vet I was speaking to says microchipping a 4-day JR is a nightmare! From then on it's illegal to sell them just to be pets.

The link to the Animal Welfare Act makes reference to a vet knowing that a dog is LIKELY to work? No-one could be sure of working ability at 4 days anyway!

It also states the following, which I would read to mean that microchipping a 4 day old puppy is certainly not what they're after:

31.     Subsection (8) requires a person who owns a dog which was legitimately docked by a vet to ensure that the dog is identified as having been legally docked. The owner will commit an offence if he does not take reasonable steps to ensure that his docked dog is so identified before it is three months old. Subsection (13)(b) allows the appropriate national authority to make regulations about the method of identification required, e.g. micro-chipping.

It does seem a very confusing law. It also makes reference to the fact that dogs can only be shown to demonstrate their working ability, or some such, but also the reference to showing where the public pay no fee - so I assume any dogs that owners have managed to get docked can still be shown as normal at breed club shows?

Very glad this does not apply to my breed and very sorry for the breeders to whom it does apply.

M.

just to add docking and micro chipping has to be done by a vet you wiil get a certificate from the vet saying he did it micro chipping has to be done by vet to prove if anyone askes that yes he did dock that puppy so people that do it at home cant get away with it

Well then the breeder could be prosecuted, as the lady with the Rottie pups was.  Ignorance of the new law will not be any excuse as it wasn't in her case, she was actually jailed.

>I was told that to prove the pups are likely to be worked, the breeder has to show some sort of evidence that the dam is worked - a shotgun certificate, or gamekeeper's certification etc.

Aaah...that answers what was going to be my next question which is how does a breeder prove that the pups are intended for working homes :)

This link explains it, being section 6 of the Animal Welfare Act.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/en2006/2006en45.htm

sorry, havnt had chance to read all replys, but had a good look at the cocker with the docked tail today. From my experience of cockers(not much so sorry in advance for the wrong colour etc) It WAS a show type cocker. it is a brown roan(?)
The socialisation consisted of the women takling it to the school and not watching it while every child stroked it!!!!! (ok if she WAS watching it!!)
So NO I dont believe this is a working cocker that is out for socialisation. Its a stocky show cocker(heads are different at that age I believe from the ones I have seen)
I honestly think this is an illegally docked cocker.
Lea :)

I live where you can still dock and crop ears, and my breed has both done.
I have gotten used to the look of cropped and docked dogs since I was a child. 
The other weekend, when I was at a show, I saw a rotti with a tail.  It surprised me, as in Canada, you see dogs of that breed having their tails done.
Unfortunately, the show world here, likes the docked and cropped look on breeds that "are supposed to have it done". 
The rotti, who had been showing for almost a year, only had 4 points on it.  And the entries of Rottis are high in Canada, so it shows that this dog is getting dumped for dogs that have these surgeries done.
In the standard for my breed it says "Ears must stand erect or be cropped."  Try showing a min pin with natural ears.  Almost impossible to get a championship on it. 
I personally like the look of Natural ears on the min pin, it makes them look softer, and no one seems to mistake them for Miniature Dobermans (not that there is a breed, just everyone asks me if they are a mini doberman.)  But if tails were not allowed to be done, along with cropping, Min Pins would look like messed up Manchesters. 
The tail on the rotti did look nice, and it made it look "not so mean".  I know rottis can be big sucks, but the reputation they have is not that.  I think if more things were done like that, then these breeds with bad reps, would eventually be thought different upon because they dont look scary. 
I guess it is all what you are used to.  If you live in a country where it isnt allowed to be done, then it would be normal.  You would think people that have it done, in other places, are absolutely nuts.

All the min pins here in the UK have natural erect ears.  Cropping was banned in the UK over a 100 years ago so pretty much as soon as formal dog showing began.  No cropped eared dog has ever been allowed to be shown here.

I will be interested to see what the show  ring dobes and Rotts look like with tails, as the only ones I have seen until now have been poor pet bred specimens so hard to judge. 

Have to say as dobes have been bred for high tail sets (even though the standard says the tail should be a smooth continuation of the backline) so the tailed dogs are going to have unattractive tails waving around in all directions over their backs. 

The rotts I have seen have had Labrador like tails mostly carried low (have seen one with a deformed shepherds crook of a tail with the handle at the tail root and the rest dropping stiffly and straight down the flank, very odd).

Got a 12 1/2 yr old Rott who is undocked, tail is similar to Lab, as you say, and normally when she is moving or standing watching something tail carriage is continuation from alert rotts dock ie straight up from base and curling loosly over back - however when she is bored it looks like 'pin the tail on the donkey- piece of wet string stuck to her bum'.I can try and find some pics and pm you if you are interested.
Chris

I live where you can still dock and crop ears, and my breed has both done.
I have gotten used to the look of cropped and docked dogs since I was a child. 
The other weekend, when I was at a show, I saw a rotti with a tail.  It surprised me, as in Canada, you see dogs of that breed having their tails done.
Unfortunately, the show world here, likes the docked and cropped look on breeds that "are supposed to have it done". 

now I can live with that with the Aussie because it is an American breed and so the tradition to dock is still strongly in place.

However for Breeds from Europe the correct 'look' is what is maintained in those countries,.....so if a breed is from Germany look to Germany to see if it is correct to crop ears and dock tails etc... and see if this breed is still supposed to have it done.