On the Breeding board there's a thread about an 'accidental' but apparently successful litter parented by two cross-bred dogs in which several 'proper' breeders lament that their carefully planned matings often go unrewarded while BYB etc. seem to have all the luck. 

Can I ask those breeders and others: as carefully chosen as your breeding stock is, do you ever assist pups or bitches in situations when they might otherwise die?  Do you think that this affects their ultimate breeding viability?

These questions are posed out of genuine interest with no criticism or point scoring intended and were prompted by seeing the thread not long after reading an article by Suzanne Clothier in which she wonders something similar.

Any thoughts?

I think it would depend on the problem. Bitches in distress obviously need to be seen by a vet just in case they need a caesarian. Pups, on the other hand, might just need to be warmed up, or a little help with their feeding. I would do all I could for any puppy to give it a chance, but wouldn't try with any deformed puppy. That would be taken to the vet to be PTS as soon as possible. In my last litter I had a little bitch (1/2 the size of her litter mates) and did all I could but she died after 2 days. In the litter before that I had a male who was left for dead by his mum. By the time I got to him he was barely alive, but with a lot of TLC he revived and was 5 years old in July :) He qualified for Crufts in his first year of showing, but hasn't been out much since. He's not a bad looking dog, even though he was the ugliest thing you saw as a very young pup ;)

Edited: My bitch had to have a caesarian 5 years ago and even though mated again she didn't produce any more puppies. Probably due to the bad scarring.

I have always wondered the same.

Personally I would not keep for breeding (or sell for as breeding potential) a pup who had been a poor doer.

The same with poor mothering qualities, difficult whelpings, i would seriously ahve to consider not keeping a pup from such a bitch and go back to somthing from her Dam (because she would ahve been fine).

Of course soem people may end up with dogs qand bitches that they breed from that have these issues in the family without knowing and unwittingly they becoem established until there are few unaffected by the problem same as any otehr fault.

I never make heroic efforts to save unviable new borns.

I know some people dismiss this as a myth,personally i have no clue...But could it be that cross bred/mongrels or what have you dogs truly are more hardy and resilient than their pure bred cousins?

>But could it be that cross bred/mongrels or what have you dogs truly are more hardy and resilient than their pure bred cousin

I wonder if it is because cross breeds are not line bred that makes it seem this way .................

It also seems that the Pet Breeders suffer very little in the breeding/whelping of puppies and this too is maybe because most pet breeders just use the dog around the corner with no thoughts to pedigrees tying in and line breeding etc

Mongrels are no healthier than pedigree dogs, my mongrel had HD, digestive problems & poor temperament. She lived into her late teens but was never a completely healthy dog

Puppies produced by what I call "Street"dogs are usually sired by the aggressive male around who drives off the opposition & mates any in season bitches in his "patch"

None of my bitches have ever needed any help & neither have the puppies. Mongrel bitches may lose puppies or have ceasarians but their owners are not likely to be too concerned otherwise they would not let their bitch get pregnant in the first place. As for pet bred pedigree puppies if the breeders use their own dogs or one nearby they too are unlikely to spend much time saving weakling puppies & they certainly do have caesars(ask any vet Mine usually do the caesar & then give the "breeders"a piece of their mind if their bitch hasn't been health tested, not monitored durng pregnancy etc)& often leave it way too late

We have just bred our first litter (for the HUNDREDTH time, in case anyone has missed it!)

I am lucky as my chosen breed on the whole are easy whelpers and do not usually require intervention. I did have to help puppy no.8 out a little, although she wasn't stuck as such, as Mum was tired by then, and her pushing less effective. She could have probably delivered the pup herself, given time, but I could see the pup's head was covered in meconiun and didn't want to lose her. I don't consider this a problem. She was bought as our intended 'foundation bitch', primarily as a pet, with breeding/working/showing a bonus. We knew from day 1 she might not 'make the grade' as any of these, but she would still be our pet whatever.

Had she had needed a c-section, I would have had to look very closely at the reasons why before decided whether to breed from her again. I probably wouldn't, butthen I have been prepared from day one, that the 7 week old puppy we took home might not turn out to be what we hoped. She might not have good enough Hip socres etc, and I am still prepared for the fact that anything could happen that makes her unsuitable to breed from.

I do think 'back yard breeders' have problems too, I just doubt they notice them, if they even care. My friend has a litter of 6 week old pups. She had a litter of 7, and was keeping one for herself. She noticed a couple of weeks ago that one bitch pup's back legs were constantly wet, so took her to the vet. It turns out she almost certainly has an Ectopic Uretha, which is where the Uretha is not in the correct place. She is obviously keeping this pup, which means not only has she lost the sale price, but she also has to face around £1500 in vets bills, in the hope of solving the pup's problem. Chances of success is high, so outlook good for the pup, but it does mean she has lost money on this litter, something she obviously knew from the start. I doubt many 'back yard' breeders woudl have even noticed this problem, let alone bother to sort it out.

I get sick of people saying to me 'Ooh, 9 pups x £XXX, you'll do well'. Um, no actually, I won't, as it cost a considerable amount of money to raise a litter correctly, especially our first one, as we didn't already have a lot of the things we have needed.

>that one bitch pup's back legs were constantly wet, so took her to the vet. It turns out she almost certainly has an Ectopic Uretha

It may also be an incompetent sphincter, which should improve as the pup gets older with no surgery intervention required although some propalin may be needed initially.............it is actually quite hard to spot early on in a litter as the Dam is doing alot of the cleaning up still, but by 6 weeks it becomes more noticable that the pup is wet more often than it's bitch siblings

I think if it was a wild population whose survival, and breeding, was completely left to natural selection then you would see stronger healthier dogs over time. The pressures of survival would eliminate the sick and less resilient from the breeding pool. But all of our dogs, even mongrels, are looked after by us so natural selection won't be working. Unless you went out of your way to cross breeds where you knew that one of the breeds was not able to be a carrier for a certain genetic fault I don't think you get any benefit from crosses. For example, take a fault like hip dysplasia and a cross a lab with a poodle. Both breeds are carriers for hip dysplasia so there's no benefit in genetic terms for that trait. In fact I walk with a labradoodle that has severe elbow problems at the age of 3.

I read this article some time ago and I have to say a lot that he says makes sense and has definately made me think...

It is a lowchen page(as the writer breeds them) but fits with all breeds...

<a class='url' href='http://www.lowchenworld.com/articles.php?article=1'>http://www.lowchenworld.com/articles.php?article=1</a>

What do you think?

A litter of mine- I chose an import dog- fantastic dog- had the exact qualities my bitch lacked but not over exaggerated if you know what I mean ;-)  The bitch- a maiden, after about 18 month/2 years of planning the mating- missed - I'd had a few weeks off work etc to go visit the stud (quite a while away) since I wasn't sure what day she would be ready (had an idea from studying previous seasons etc)- a very difficult mating for one reason and another.  I'd even booked the time off work when the pups would be due. 

Anyway- another 6 months down the line- she deceided to be a month late with her season- then I spent a fortune at the vets having pre-mates done at a cost of around 30 each (had 4 or 5). 

I daren't let myself get carried away thinking she was in whelp, nor did I dare have her scanned- I just thought what will be, will be (obviously hoped she was)- she was!  Time off work when the pups were due again- then trying to rotate time off and hours to coincide with my mums so the pups weren't left.  The first 4 pups were delivered fine- the fifth got stuck- I helped her out (lost), the next one seemed to fly out after and so was alive, the next 1 lost, the 1 after that breech again I helped her (3 lost in total).  The bitch I kept- had a tiny tear to one ear and the other ear never went 'up' so there went that one :-(  I've still got her because she really is an outstanding bitch in every way with the exception of that ear- stand her on the other side and she's beautiful, fantastic construction and obviously I've never entered her in the ring but plenty of champ show judges have commented on her.

The litter cost a fortune when you consider the cost of the equipment I needed, I bought them new toys every time I went for dog food, lost money for time off work, I didn't even add in the costs of my time spent with them, nor the cost of the time spent reading up on the whelping process, or the internet or speaking to mentors in the breed.  Then the puppy packs I put together for the buyers were brilliant :-)

I had to intervene with that litter- first and foremost I would ALWAYS put the bitch's health above pups- but yes I intervened and asissted delivery.  If I hadn't and pup no5 was stuck any longer I don't think pup no6 would have made it.  I don't think this would have had an effect on the bitch for future breeding purposes but I'll never know because the bitch has since been diagnosed as having cancer.

When you think how easy some irresponsible people like the one that was discussed - everything seems so ideal- no probs etc- put that to what I went through and yes it makes me sooo mad it's unreal.

Stacey x

P.S- Both had all relevent health checks done etc    

ive always wondered this....

had health tests, chosen sire, travelled hours to get to sire, costs £££ and time and effort... then no pups...  have to let people down (very hard especially if they have children)..

then mr and mrs producer down road decide to mate their two 'pets', no health tests or anything - they get a litter...

maybe some things are not meant to be for a reason?

>maybe some things are not meant to be for a reason?

And that reason is .... ?

ok - maybe some things are never meant to be!

That's a very interesting article. I'm not a breeder but it made a lot of sense. However it's still important to take things like hips & PRA into account when breeding - I'm presuming she's just saying it's not the be all and end all, and there should be other considerations as well as those? Not being a breeder myself - is this how good breeders will evaluate their stock? Fertility, longevity and other health considerations as well as the known health screening? I know from what I've seen some people post on here that they do seem to take all these things into consideration.

I would imagine consciously or unconsciously all those aspects enter into the equation.

I always look at a how a potential stud and his family age and their longevity and general fitness.  I expect them to be able to behave naturally around the opposite sex to achieve mating, and for the bitch to have good mothering qualities and for the pups to be robust and good doers, and for Vets visits to be minimal.