hi i am open to any ideas people have of ways to get my springer who is seven months calm around other dogs and people. i know she is still young but we have been working with her and taking her to obedience since she was 7 weeks old. i feel like she is getting no better. we had a go at her bronze last night and failed she was a nervous wreck and having none of the staying for a minute. the thing is when we do it with her at home or in a field with no dogs she is as good as my other dog who has his gold so i know she can do it. last night the dogs were at the other side of the hall and she was still petrified. we have started to take her out with out my other dog for a while and to the classes on her own but she is really bed. i have to drag her into the hall and then she wont come out of under the chair. i really dont understand why she is like this we have had her around our friends dogs and my parents from day one and she is brillient with them.
HELP!!! we really want to start working her when shooting season starts

Not much of a help really, but some dogs just don't like halls! Springers are outdoor dogs, and are at their best out in the field, especially if they are working stock. Not that I'm saying working Springers don't like being indoors, they do! Mine used to hog the fireplace ;) But they just don't like the echo that you can get inside a large hall. I would just take her along to the hall and sit at the side but not let her join in. Just let her watch for a few weeks. She will be picking up on your anxiety which will be making her even more nervous. Not what you are after at all.

I'm in total agreement, forget the training in halls and for now the puppy training classes.

Mum is the working dog fanatic in our family, she has had Springers, Working Cockers and Show Cockers for the last 20ish odd years now, I've helped to train most of them generally between 8 weeks - 12 months. I've always found the Working Cockers and the Show Cockers generally easy to train, the Springers for me have always been that much harder, until they get to 12 months then they are a complete dream everything clicks in and they settle beautifully.

They do all vary, if she were my bitch and her behaviour was like this, she isn't going to be much good as a working dog, I would leave her be, forget working her for now and allow her to grow up, break her in gently she may be great in the field but it is paitently obvious she is very uncomfortable in these classes so don't force her!

Take a long break continue training outdoors where all Springers are the most comfortable, when she is 12-18 months you can always try again. :-)

Absolutely agree too.

For the good citz test they do not need to do the stay inside. In club we had a GSD who wouldn't do the saty inside so even for his gold he did his stays in the field. Which imo is more where you need the control and many dogs would find that harder. 

When you stat having to drag a dog it is like the wind and the sun..force creates a greater resistance.

I'd either find a club that trains outside and see if that works better.

Or if there are no other options any you want to keep up with this class restart your training with her and try to make a fresh start.  I'd discuss this with the trainer and see if you can get to class early when no other dogs arrived and bring rewards that captivate her and have a really fun time playing play games with her. When the other dogs arrive keep up the focus she has for the game and train just this issue and forget the other aspects of training in class until she is focused on you and not on the other dogs. Stay ahort time and finish on a good note and build up the time you can spend in the hall with the other dogs. She maybe got spooked by something and is stuck on it if she was okay there before.

Try to take the pressure off and relax because if she is fine in other places she I'd build on that rater than dig deeper into the one place she has a problem. They so easily pick up on our anxiety.

if i dont take her tho how will i ever get her used to the other dogs at all which is really what i need her to do. she is very obedient so its not that what im having the problems with but we got her to work her (and am managing very well untill other dogs are there) and am not going to be able to until she gets used to other dogs.

But you are not helping her by taking her to a place she doesn't like, and trying to make her do things she is unhappy about. She is going through a growing phase where everything is scarey. Even things that last week she was happy with. Ignore the behaviour as best you can, but try not to encourage it either by letting her know that you are getting stressed out. It will only make her worse.

If you were having a problem with, say for instance, her retrieve out in a field you would go back to basics, wouldn't you? That's what you need to do with her here. There are other ways to get her used to being near other dogs. Taking her to a park, where she doesn't feel hemmed in, is surely better than a place where she can't escape? You have taken her out of her comfort zone and by taking her back you are only getting her stressed out even more. You need to take a step backward before you can go forward again. She is still only a baby.

Do you not have people who could meet you somewhere neutral with their dogs, just to see how she reacts? After all, if you are going to work her you will be meeting them out in a field, not in a hall, so the best way to go might be by trying outside, just to see her reaction.

I hope you can find a way through this fear thing she has developed. :)

well she is fine with my friends dogs as they are springers which she is not bothered by. with other dogs she is fine with them out in fields because they are not bothering her however if they come chasing her she would definitly run away from them. my sis has a 12 week old border collie. we have been trying to meet up with her and we thought after a few hours in a field she would get used to him and start playing like she does with our dog but she is still petrified of the puppy. if any dog comes near her she runs away from it however once the puppy blocked her in a corner in my living room and she started to snack at it. i dont think she knew what else to do she was so scared

Working dogs, can't be nervous she needs to be confident and obediant.

If you want to work her she is going to be meeting lots of other dogs all the time, if she is fearful that is no good. How is she with shot guns too? Whistles, shouting, is she a nervous type dog with other things aswell or is it purely just with other dogs?

She is at the age where many dogs go through fears again just as they do in their 12 week socialising window so a lot of this is to do with her age ;-) you must not do anything to justify her fears. The BC pup is obviously to full on and bouncy for her, stick to her Springer friends.

Get her basic training done, particularly dummy retrievals, teach her as much ground work as her age will allow and let her mix with other dogs on her walks, call her and lead her when a strange dog approaches, praising her continually, ask if the dog is friendly if so walk over and allow the other dogs to sniff her, showing her she has nothing to fear.

At 7 months she may well be coming into season, this could also be an important factor, young bitches tend to know they need to stay away from other dogs and protect themselves being so young, they often become nervous around other dogs and will run away to protect their nether regions ;-) well before a season starts, best defense is to lead her the moment other dogs are around so that she feels safe.

It is a mixture of everything!  Stay outdoors you can do all her training much better one to one, with casual dog meetings to build up her confidence, whatever the reason of her fear.

Above all else just don't force her, you've socialised her as a pup, you've given her her basic training, now let her digest and get through this fearful stage and she will be ok again in a few months time.

I would contact Hilary Gould at the KC and ask her to send you a list of field trail and working societies in your area. Ring around a few and ask about their summer training programmes. I would also buy yourself a couple of good books, Paul Rawlings and Peter Moxon are good, also try to get hold of Ian Openshaws spaniel training dvds, you can buy these from Turner Richards.
I would not take your youngster to the hall again as that is obviously stressing both of you out and why force an issue with her. Take her out and about, walk her in woods, parks etc, let her be a puppy first and foremost. However if you want to work her eventually ( she is far to young to go on a shoot this season and you will do more harm than good) be careful when excercising her, keep her quartering close to you, she must also be steady to the flush and drop immediately, come back when whistled, stop on the whistle and turn either following your body language when older or by 2 toots of the whistle before you should even contemplate going on a shoot
If you take her on a shoot this year at such a young age as she is slightly nervous you will encounter problems such as running on, she may be gunshy  and a totally different dog when faced with lots of game scent, they go up 10 gears etc. You need all the basic gears in place first, most importantly the stop whistle (your brakes) and taking her so early will ruin her. Wait, get her trained and enjoy the next shooting season.
An old keeper told me the old adage which I have found out since as I have both goldens and springers (working) that is so true. ' A labrador is born half trained and a springer dies half trained'
Good luck and enjoy your little girl, springers are so much fun but do raise your blood pressure at times

she is stopping and retrieving to whistle. she is not scared at all with us. however if someone else blew a whistle in a field that had not already approached her i think she may be a bit nervous. my partner would not have actually worked her but just have took her along really, he did it with our other dog when he was this age and he was brilliant and loved it. its so weird cos if you saw her when she is out with us she is so full of life and as soon as someone approaches her she just runs to us really scared, however if they dont approach her she would run and greet them. we have tryed keeping her on a lead and trying to gradually introduce dogs to her but she really is petrified and trys to hide behind us. do you think i should keep taking her out on our own without the other dog just when we do she wont leave our side yet when del is with us she will run in the fields and bushes perfectly. this has honestly been going on since 12 weeks and i feel she is getting no better at all.

Bless her she needs a giant boost of confidence doesn't she?

If it is a trait that she has had since you have had her and not just something that is happening now, it is doubtful it will much improve, some dogs are just like this, I wouldn't use her to work with at all, some dogs just don't have the right personality which is a shame as she may be a great dog at all the other things.

Sometimes this happens because a dog has not been properly socialised as a young pup, but this does not seem the case with you, she is just not happy out of her comfort zone is she?

Do walk her alone to try to build up her confidence and obviously train her alone, but I have a feeling this bitch needs your dog and a large pack of others like the Springers you know to feel confident enough to leave you and go sprinting in the fields and flushing in bushes etc. Some dogs are just like this she is who she is, just make things as easy for her as possible. A lot of humans are shy too. ;-)

its such a shame cos i think she would make a briliant gun dog. yes she has been like this since we got her and we have worked so hard with her to get her out of it. my partner just wants a dog he can take shooting. we got a dog who we found has two luxating patellas and really does not have the energy for working (he is only a year and a half) then we got her and cant take her either.

What a terrible shame, I feel so sorry for you. Did you get your bitch from a good working breeder?  There are so many good gundog sites who have good working lines.

If you truly want a working dog, it may be wise to pass this little girl on to a pet home and start again. (If the bond is understandably too great then ignore my idea, it depends on how you feel)

You could always look on some of the sites for part trained bitches, they are expensive but at least you know what you are getting ;-) rather than going through all of this again. Sounds like your bitch would be ok even with an older bitch as she would take a back seat may be worth a thought.

I a, sorry, you haven't had a lot of luck with the two of them. Build her confidence up gradually, take her to places where she can meet and greet in a controlled manner, ignore the timid behaviour when she runs back to you but carry on as normal. A guy worth speaking to that will give advice to you over the phone is Mark Whitehouse of Cheweky gundogs. I will pm you his number. I would persevere with this little one.

i could never give her up as they are my little babys. yes mag is out of rytex lines her father is ftch clarburgh art and her mother was also a good worker. its weird cos we waited so long to find a dog from excellent lines and travelled for her to then get her and struggle with her. we did the same with our other dog his father is ftch denford danny of belvden and the mother was also a worker who's owner was a vet to then find he had luxating patellas and hip dysplasia. i will keep working with her and see how she comes on.

I have a dog who to the untrained eye some people would say she's nervous but shje's not.  She has boundless energy and doesn't think much to dogs nor people.  She is partially sighted though.  Now I go gundog training with her and yet again she wants nothing to do with the people nor the other dogs but she's great at working and the people and dogs around her don't bother her at all.

Don't know where you are but we've got training this Sunday.  They are a great bunch of people and most of them have Springers.  Shows how nice they are as they've let me and others bring our hairy sheep with us :d  If you want more details PM me.

Also they have a good website where you could ask the same question and might get some further advice.

Hi Stanyer

Before you read the rest of my post please understand I'm NOT having a go just trying to help!!

In another post you said that you "never let them play fight in the house".  I'm not sure entirely what you meant by this but if you are preventing her from playing and interacting with other dogs in the house then perhaps this is why in an indoor environment she is nervous of other dogs!  She doesn't want them to her approach her "inside" as she has been told that inside play is not acceptable.

IMHO I think you may have inadvertently created this problem.  You say your girl if fine with your friend's dogs, this is more than likely because you allow her to play with them and you are not tense and on edge like you probably are at training classes.

I would do as others have suggested.  Have some time out from the classes even a few weeks would probably be enough and then start completely from scratch. 

My 4 springers sometimes drive me insane when they play in the house but they NEVER are prevented from doing this just encouraged to go outside if it get's a bit noisy and rough, it's all part of the learning process.  The pack dynamics change regularly and this play allows them to establish their own individual places within the group.  If you're preventing this from happening your poor girl doesn't know where she stands and when play is allowed or not allowed.

Good Luck and if you need anymore help just PM or e-mail me

Again no criticism intended but from past posts I get the impression that what has happened here is what often happens with a second dog.

Because the dog has canine company and seems very bold and confident the socialisation with other dogs is neglected, as after all they have it on tap.

Unfortunately dogs often don't generalise their experiences, and you end up with a pup who is great with it's own pack and breeds it is used to but can't cope with strange dogs.  There is also the element of relying for confidence on the pack members (hum and and canine).

I would not stop classes but take a slower tack.

Start with simply going to classes and sitting on the sidelines at a distance that is comfortable for her.  Ignore the fact she is climbing under the chair.  If she wants to stay there let her, chat to the people next to you, ask that other dogs at this stag do not approach.

When she realises that no-one is going to bother her and that Mum is totally relaxed she will want to interact with you at least.  Low key reward and a tasty treat,a nd continue ignoring.  With each braver step, reward.

then when she starts to relax and watch the other dogs with interest then choose a really steady dog, the kind that can take or leave her, and see if she will stay relaxed if you have him near you and fuss him.  Once she is comfortable with you saying hello to other dogs in her presence she may want to try herself.

Carry on in slow steps like this.  You may go back wards at times.

Trying to train her when she is totally stressed or frightened will not work, but just avoiding these things won't help either, you have to start with going just a tiny bit beyond her comfort level, but not beyond what she can cope with.

I agree socialising her in open areas could be best, but unlike in a trainign class you do not ahve as much control to ensure yoru efforts are not undone by a loose dog charging up etc.

We had a lovlewy nervous  male Springer come to our classes.

He was sadly neutered at only five months old, which may not ahve been a problem if he had not already been a very unsure submissive puppy.  Due to this combination of events he became attractive to entire males, and was not confident enough to repel theri attentions.  He coudl nto be let off lead in the park as male dogs trying to flirt with him just terrified him.

He started at our classes an absolute shakign mess.  Our trainer suggested eh jsut take things very slowly, adn over teh next months when he realised no dogs would be overpowering in their attentions to him (under control and not allowed to) he began to gain confidence and amde freinds with various canines until eventually he coudl cope with the most enthusiastic.  This also allowed him to learn ho to avoid being bullied.  He adored coming to class, and could cope when meeting other dogs off lead, adn this gave his owner the chance to manage things if another dog got too amorous..

hi your are saying to take things slowly and just let her sit and watch and stuff to begin with but this is what we have been doing for 6 months. we started taking her carrying her when she was 7 weeks and not allowed down then we started sitting near the door and away from all the other dogs we have tryed to build it relly gradually but she has not improved one bit in 6 months still as bad as she was on day one. we even took her to an advanced class were the dogs are really calm no barking and noone wanting to play and this still was not helping. we then tryed to take her for walks on her own without my other dog but still no difference. i know some will say she is still young and i understand that but i just thought she would have improved a bit over six months but she has not changed at all.
about playing in the house mags never gets wrong for playing inside but we take her outside if they want to play. our tiny little wood floored sitting room was to much for them to play fight on. the only dogs she seems to like are the dogs that she met when she was 7 weeks which are dre my dogs brother and my mams dog. she leaps all over them when she sees them any other dog even if she sees it in a distance she runs to me petrified of them(she used to run to del but at least now she is running to me). no dog has ever growled or been nasty with her or my other dog so thats not a reason either. the only thing that ever was nasty was a cat which was a bit nasty to her when she first come to us (she managed to squeeze through a tiny gap in my parents garden to greet a cat which then was a bit nasty with her and she ran off.) i dont know if that might of affected her at all.

What is your reaction to her displays of fear/anxiety.  Did you soothe and reassure her.  If you did which is a common reaction then she may find the attention rewarding.  Act scared and Mum will pet and soothe me, or it can also confirm in her mind that there is something to worry about as Mum gets fussy and anxious.

She is still very young and it is not too late to change things, but you must be very upbeat and confident in the situations she finds stressful.

when she used to run to us we used to kind of pet her, however because we had been taking her to classes the lady told us not to do this so we have not been doing this for few months now. normally she makes other people in the class approach her gently with treats and i am not allowed to praise her unless she goes out to get the treat if she stays under the chair i tend to ignore her really. when out on a walk she is brilliant at recall and as she is so scared i have no problem with her coming to me however the other week a dog did come running for her and she ran back home.

hey i have decided i am going to start again . since i have gathered she is petrified to even go out without del what is the point in taking her to classes were she is without del and around other dogs. the same goes with training as soon as i take her away from del she seems to panic so wont seem to listen so i am going to try to gradually get her used to being witout del before concentrating on the training to much.
thanks for all your help

No probs Stanyer

If you need any further help of advice you can PM or e-mail me

Try the separation gradually starting with just a few minutes a day then gradually build it up.

Good Luck

Vicky

Good luck, it will come. Another thing is spaniels (working) are very self centered, none of mine when out interact with other dogs, they are too busy wanting to hunt. If dogs come near them they treat them as if they are invisible and just want to get on with the job they have been bred to do. Before anyone states that this is because they aren't socialised I can assure them that they are fully socialised and this is a common trait with working bred springers. My oldest bitches father was your dogs father also, she is a cracking worker though it did take considerable time for her too get everything together in her head though LOL, she for a while would hunt but not retrieve but she has won awards in tests and is now one of my mainstays in my picking up team. Persevere with your girl, a friend took on a 6 month old dog (working bred) that wa terrified of his own shadow. If you spoke to him he would wet himself, walk up to him he rolled over in a submissive stance, he hadn't a clue about hunting or retrieving and any different tone from his owner sent him back at 100 knots to his truck. With his devotion to this dog, lots of hard work and praise this dog has now just won his first novice trial at 14 months old. We knew the history of this dog and where he came from, he was not abused in any way, shape or form but was just a soft nervy dog. Lots would have given up on him but the proof of what can be done has been shown.
Throw your all at this little girl, she will come round, it just sounds like she will take a little longer than normal.

thanks for your advice. its true what you say about them never bothering other dogs when out cos my dog is definitly like that he is brilliant at working and never bothers the other dogs. its funny that you say that about him retrieving cos del is like that to he wont retreive and when trying to encourage him he trys to hold the bird by the very edge of its wing and trys to drag it along. dont think he likes the feathers.

Have you thought about giving her some Bachs Remedy to see if it will calm her down a little as have heard it has worked very well on some nervous dogs ? Also interesting but not sure if you watched Dog Borstal late last night ( thinking it was a repeat) but they had a very nervous Borzoi called Mr Darcy on ( super dog ). They turned him around with some very simple techniques by slow and gradual exposure to dogs gradually increasing the quantity and number of dogs giving continual praise for standing still and also walking past without shying away so might be worth seeing if you can work on the same lines maybe ? It is all about tackling the fears head on but slowly slowly :)

Lucy
xx

Youre welcome, have you tried getting hold of cold game and putting it in a tight? This will encourage him to hold the bird correctly without getting a mouthful of feathers. You could also try wrapping 2 wings around a dummy and getting Del to retrieve that. I am sure with lots of praise and encouragement you will overcome these problems

hey he is fine with the wings around the dummy i think it must be something to do with the weight aswell of the bird. will give the others a go.

and yes i did watch dog borstal last night was quite interesting.