Hi All,

A friend of mine has been doing alot of reading and liasing with her vet about the possibility of breeding from her female but the problem is she came endorsed. Obviously if she wanted this to be lifted she would have to speak to her breeder but she has asked me to find out in general what breeders would look for her to do in order to lift this?

Thanks

What was she told by the breeder at the time she bought the pup?

She should either have been told (and signed to say she agreed) that the endorsements would not be lifted, or that they would be lifted on receipt of appropriate hip score/eye test/heart test* delete as appropriate for the breed.

M.

Hmm she didn't sign anything and wasn't told anything about the endorsement but at the time she had no intention of breeding from her. She wants to speak to the breeder but wants to get some further advice on what they would look for first. Her vet told her to get the tests done that are required for that breed then talk to the breeder but she doesn't want to do all of that and then be rejected. Are they generally lifted upon these tests being done or do you need to show etc etc?

I think in the first instance, she should talk to the breeder. If the breeder states her requirements (and puts them in writing) for health testing, then perhaps that's fair enough, although that should have been made clear before she bought the puppy.

If payment of an additional sum to lift the endorsement is mentioned, I'd have entirely different advice ... :rolleyes:

M.

I too think she should speak to the breeder of her bitch.  She probably has very valid reasons for endorsing the puppies.  I have to say that if I had bred a litter and put endorsments on and the person who'd bought one as a pet (if that is the case) wanted to breed from it for no reason other than to have puppies, I wouldn't lift it.  If the bitch hasn't been shown or worked to a high standard there very little reason to breed from her IMO.  The likelyhood of your friends vet knowing how the bitch could improve the breed are very small.

Debs

Couldn't agree more Debs. However, would also expect someone with valid reasons to make them clear to the puppy buyers.

I don't doubt that there are unethical breeders in many breeds who place endorsements in the hope of getting more money later. Don't suppose many of them are breeding and selling dogs that are of vital importance to the improvement of the breed though - but it still irritates me.

M.

I don't doubt that there are unethical breeders in many breeds who place endorsements in the hope of getting more money later.

Ohhhh yes - one of my pet peeves too!  I've always thought that a dog is a dog is a dog.  I don't expect to pay any less for a well bred, well reared pet than I do for a show/breeding prospect.  You still love them, live with them, pamper to their every whim :d so why have to pay any more money so you can have a litter?  It's not on.  Let's hope that's not the case here.

Debs

Indeed!! A friend of mine bought a dog for showing from another friend for £500, she knew when she bought him he was endorsed but it was mentioned that the endorsment could be lifted if she wanted to use him at stud at a later date.  They got very friendly and started travelling to shows together, socialising etc.  my friend then bought a bitch from this friends family member who also shows.  She thought that her dog would be a good mating for her bitch, the original friend agreed and said the endorsment could be lifted for the small fee of £600!!!! Now thats what I call daylight robbery and not a very good friend!

I hope she told the 'friend' to get stuffed! :D

M.

endorsements are not enforceable unless a contract was signed saying you understand the endorsement. if she didnt sign one then she can have it lifted, contact KC.

You're correct of course, Sara, and it's usually my inclination to tell people that too as I think it is fairer - but doesn't mean that there might not be valid reasons why it's not a good idea to breed from a bitch. Just because a person can, doesn't necessarily mean they should.

I hope all breeders who endorse for responsible reasons are now fully up to date on these regulations and cover themselves with a signed contract. Those who do it as a 'ransom' measure deserve all they get, I feel, but I wonder how many of the dogs bred and sold by such people are really a good addition to the breed's gene pool. Sweeping statement perhaps, but probably relevant to a substantial percentage.

M.

Yes Lily I think she did and in a much more polite way than I would have. I would rather pay someone else a stud fee than be robbed blind! If she had said it would cost £100 then she would still have been a bit taken back but would prob have paid it but certainly not £600!!  The biggest laugh is that my friend let this other 'friend' use her previous show dog at stud on one of her bitches for a reduced price of £200 because she was a friend!!

Hi Angels2,

In the eyes of the kennel club if the purchaser has not been made aware of the endorsements when they buy the puppy (not after) and have  not signed a contract stating that they are aware of the endorsements and the implications of these endorsements, the KC will be in favour of the purchaser and will lift the endosrements. However if she signed a contract with the breeder, even if she doesn't have a copy of it, though the breeder will, the kc will not lift the endorsement. It would be worth checking with her breeder about the endorsements, checking her paperwork as we can become carried away when purchasing a pup and don't take everything in, ask the breeder under what circumstances these will be lifted if any and work together with the breeder. I would question also why she wants to breed and get her to read the book of the bitch, get a mentor and really think seriously about all the implications of rearing a well adjusted, healthy litter including the major costs involved.

Thanks for all the advice.

She has currently got a mentor in an older friend who has bred litters in the breed and shown the breed in the past. She has read alot of books but i will point her in the direction of the book you mentioned. She currently shows her bitch and has had some very good comments about her from both the show people and her vet which was what prompted the investigation to begin with. She says that she definately didn't sign anything but would not want to undermine her original breeder by going to the Kennel Club until a last resort. She is besotted with the breed that she has and feels that if the scores on the health tests are very good then as long as she takes the right advice she would like to help improve the breed.

Are you saying that if she had no endorsements she could have just bred from her?

I must admit to knowing very little in this topic as i have a male dog and he is a pet only as i would be the worst breeder ever (would want to keep all the puppies!:rolleyes:) LOL

No seriously its not something i know anything about but i knew you guys would!

When people sell puppies that are "without papers" is this because they were probably endorsed but bred from anyway?

Hi,

Any pedigree (KC reg) dog that has no endorsemets on its registration certificate can be bred from, this is why the KC bought in these endorsements (R progeny not eligible for registration and X not for issue of export certificate), this acts as some form of safeguard for the breeder to ensure the pup is not exported to a country where the animal care isn't what it is here and also that puppies cannot be registered from said dog or bitch. However breeders have to cover their backs by getting contracts signed by buyers explaining that they know why the e's are on there. If they haven't done this the KC will lift the E

going back on your last question there may be many reasons why the pups are sold without papers, examples, bitch (dam) too old, over eight or had her quota of litters (6, far too many anyway), the sire or dam may have R endorsement on their pedigree. It may be a puppy farmer also that couldn't give a monkeys about the pups but want to shunt them out, the bitch is bred constantly from (pup farmer) or could be a x breed. Whatever the reason pedigree puppies should have a KC reg and there is no excuse if everything is done above board.

My Jessie's registration is endorsed, but her breeders will remove them if I want them to. I'm considering a litter from her to preserve the bloodlines behind her, but it will be a no go if she isn't DNA clear & low scoring for her hips

and of course of teh implications of being responsible for the pups welfare for the next 15 years and having often at a dorp of a hat to make provision for one of them, often at the most inconvenient moment.

All of my pups have both R & X endorsements on them. I state to all puppy enquiriers that these endorsements will not be lifted under any circumstances, it is surprising how many people that state they want the pup just as a pet then query why I will not lift the endorsements. They sign a pup contract with that on also and a seperate endorsement contract too. I have lifted one R endorsement and regretted it and will never do it again.

Why won't you lift them if they turn out to be excellent, healthy specimens whose genes would benefit the breed? After all, that's what you'll have hoped for when you planned the litter. There's no point in breeding unless you're trying to produce the best. Obviously not all pups in a litter will make the grade, but I'd expect at least 10% to be good enough to pass on their genes.

It was something we talked about a long time ago. We lifted one and I ended up driving 70 miles to deliver the bitch at 5am in the morning as the know it all owner panicked!. I agree 10% of the pups will be good enough to pass on their genes, I keep a pup from each litter so I can carry on my line. As our breed is one of the most popular and numerically strong .I find that the majority of them go to pet homes and as I said earlier it is surprising how many pet owners think it is a good idea to breed. I have a few from recent litters  (working bred)that have gone to working homes and one to a trialling friend, I would make exception to him as he will trial her at a later date. I find that doing it this way puts off the few that think they can make a healthy profit from breeding! and have no intention of changing this as we do not want our line to be bred from indiscriminately.

I will pass on the information thanks.

Ditto, what everyone else has said, but personally I am quite cross with this vet, vets IME don't know a potential champion, good lined breeding bitch from a puppy farmed speciman.  He is encouraging your friend to think of breeding this bitch even before all scores, health tests etc have even been done, because she probably looks nice.:rolleyes:

The vet is in fact wanting to do all tests first and then check with the breeder re: endorsements. I spy with my little eye a vet after money. ;-)

As already said, check with the breeder, then do health tests, then do well in the show world, (the breeder will then have no real reason to hold the endorsment over the bitch) then see if there is a potential waiting list for pups from this bitch, then learn everything about breeding and think seriously if breeding is being done for the right reasons, and she also needs to think if she wishes to put her bitch through breeding and all the risks associated with it, it is not a decision to be made quickly a minimum of two years research is needed. :-)

Yes i have told her that the vets aren't experts (not when it comes to specific breeds anyway!), Yes she has a way to go before she would feel 100% about breeding her. She has done alot of reading but wants hands on experience so she is wanting to shadow her breeder etc to get experience before anything happens. I personally think she is mad but it is because it is something that personally terrifies me!!

Thanks for the advice though!