Hi just a quick question though it may be followed by others, My bitch has an endorsement for progeny not to be registered however my breeder has said that this can be removed subject to me choosing in her oppinion a suitable sire. Now the question; is it just a simple case of her writing to the kennel club and then her saying she sent the letter or would I get any type of confirmation from the kennel club?

many thanks for the advice

The breeder just has to simply send a letter to the KC. The only thing that I have done though is always send a copy of their approval to the registered owner, just so that they are clear that I have done it.

Thank you thats helpfull. We are a bit nervous about the whole situation, how did you feel taking off an endorsement what circumstances do you feel were important for you to agree? Sorry it just feels a bit of a mine field as such although she has always been placed at champ shows and got a third at crufts it does feel very much that our oppinion doesn't matter.

You need to understand why endorsements are placed. In many cases, breeders have spent many years developing their kennel, and they place endorsements to do what they can to protect their puppies from being exploited. In may be seen by some as ''control'' but if you bought the bitch in full knowledge of the endorsement and the circumstances under which it might be removed, then the breeder cannot be critisised now.

I would be glad to have such a caring breeder to guide my novice decisions. (in fact I had)

Dawn R.

Oh no its not that i'm bitching its been miss read. Of course we understood why. its just that now its difficult to understand how she is feeling as such, you know what makes you think as a breeder 'yes i'm happy with that decision'. She no longer breeds or else we would of just got a puppy from her and not bothered to attempt a puppy from our girl, The point is she is a very good specimin of the breed plus our baby. Its just not so easy as she is far away from us and its not so good sending e-mails as you can always be mis-read, Talking face to face you can always see better what people think.

Was that her only stipulation?  Mine have to have had a number of health tests, are a good example of the breed and have a good temperament before I lift theirs.

But as others have said the breeder just sends a letter to the KC.  Ive just had a letter back yesterday for two that I lifted last week.

I've not written too much in order to bore you all, My breed has no known health issues, She is the best that my breeder ever breed she cried to let her go but she had retired and her husband said she could not keep her, etc long story. We feel very honoured to have her. Its a strange situation as they no longer show either. plus other family ilnesses etc. We broached the subject she asked us to look for a sire we liked the look of etc check pedigrees etc. then get back to them. We are in the process, we have found two potential sires and are about to e-mail back this info, I just feel nervous that she's going to say no etc oh I dont really know the best way to word all this. Sorry!

I was happy as the bitch had an excellent hip score and clear eyes. Also she had done well in the champ shows and had had a 3rd and 1st at Crufts that particular year. I would definitely take the advice of the breeder as she will know if they are any potential pitfalls behind the breeding of your choice. Also she will be able to look at the potential sire and see if he can put anything on to your bitch where she might fail. You are lucky in that this lady is letting you have the benefit of her experience and hopefully not letting you make any mistakes with the breeding.

Oh I know I am lucky in some way's but it is difficult in others feeling on 'trial' so to speak wrong word as such but cant think of more appropriate. :-)  Worried that we could make a stupid comment and she could just say no thats it, I admit I am a novice, the whole thing is scary, So silly things are bound to be said hence my picking brains. I dont want to upset anyone and the only thing that is important to me is My girls welfare.  

Coem to think of it I just think you need to take a deep breath, get a large glass of wine and relax abit more.  Try not to think about it as being scary, but also don't be afraid to ask your breeder questions no-matter how stupid they may sound she will be the best person to ask. 

Your probabl;y right I'm getting up tight for no reason :-) got the wine!!

I doubt your breeder will say no but I'm sure you have her lines that she's no-longer breeding but she wants to share her knowledge with you but also letting you do your own work if you get what I mean?

I know alot of breeders who will endorse all puppies they breed and will only lift them once health checks are carried out and passed to a good grade and also gives breeders a chance to help and guide people as you have to go back to the breeder to ask for the endorsment to be lifted. :)  I can't see it being a strage situation as possibly this breeder has been doing this for many years and it could be how she has always done it. 

It's also done for the protection of the breed by those who are new, having to listen to those with experiance :)

I'm sure that if you know what your looking for in a stud dog then your breeder will agree with you.  she might point you in another direction, afterall she will know who's lines match her's and whose don't :)

Yes I think that sound right. We just didn't plan to breed when we got her, though for a lot of different and Good reasons we want to now consider it. I'm sure i'm just worrying without reason. I just wanted to hear what other breeders thought with regard to removing endorsements etc. I have done a lot of research on lines etc and certainly not planning to do this till her season after next in April. so I am very much trying to honour her lines and her work within the breed. 

You sound like your doing everything right.  :)  Just remember you are trying to honour her lines and so for aslong as the breeder is alive she might be keen to be "in on the action" as it's the closest thing she now has to breeding is guiding someone else?  Must be hard for her giving up the dogs and showing, breeding etc.  As long as you do it properly then I'm sure your breeder will only support :)

Fun game this isn't it? :D

Thank you so much Ice Queen Yes it is a 'Fun Game' :rolleyes: You do make sence I hadn't really thought about it that way like having children and interfeering grand parents in a way :-)

Even if your choices are not considered quite right by the breeder she will be pleased that you have done the research and you will learn what her reasons are for feeling as she does and learn from her. 

As she has now had to give up actively breeding and showing you are in effect her protégé, and she will be very pleased to help establish you by continuing her life's work.

The saddest thing is that many breeders having made a life's work of their breed have no-one to carry the torch on for them.

I too think it is good you have such a caring breeder behind you.
As in the end she will stop you for example doubling on a line that might carry some kind of nastiness you would not even know about, but she has seen in her years in the breed!
In a way you are getting her years of knowledge behind you as she will tell you the dog is ok or if he isn't I'm sure she will tell why!
If you listen and keep asking, you will learn so many things others will possibly have to learn in a hard way, making the mistakes themselves...
Good luck!

I'm sorry to ask what may seem like a silly question but are endorsements only placed on bitches?

No, they can be placed on dogs as well. Many good breeders automatically endorse all their puppies.

just an interesting little story. i bought a bitch with endorsements. told breeder if all was well i would want to breed from her. she was ok about that. the stipulation was i had the bitches eyes tested at 1 year old. this was no problem as i always do that regardless of the breed.sent copy of clear eye test to breeder. she replied that she would not lift it until she was 18 months old and clear eye test. so off i went at 18 months again clear eye test sent certificate to breeder she said no she wouldnt lift it. i was gobbed smacked my girl had had 2 clear eye tests( for which cost me) in a period of 18 months. she said that she never said she would lift the endorsement. so moral of the story make sure you get it in writing from the breeder that they will lift the endorsement. by the way the kennel club could do nothing as i appealed to them. hard lesson learnt though

Sorry to hear about your experiance Jayne, I would recommed anyone who bys a bitch with the possiblity of breeding from her has in the contract puppy will be endorsed but will be lifted if passed all health checks. 

Though I can understand not doing anything before 18 months re lifting endorsents due to age of breeding.

Appeals do work but only in certain circumstances. :)

As of course it is so easy to lift by the breeder :)

Though a friend was telling me she's had 3 people look at a pup she has left in a litter who only wanted a pet, nothign to show or breed, who then hen she said all her pups are endorsed said they were no longer intrested   Well she see's it as a good way of putting off people you don't feel are good enough....To combat these people she has sold puppies to people who have asked advise on spaying etc etc etc :) Sensible people do exsist!!!! :D

My GSP dog is endorsed - progeny not eligible for registration. I had to sign something to say I understood it and if he matured to be a good specimen of the breed (or words to that effect) endorsement would be willingly removed. I don't remember anything about health tests being on it (which personally I think should be there) but regardless, lovely boy though he is, his conformation is in no way perfect, so I've never needed to worry about it.  My flat coat is, I think I recall, endorsed - not for export. Since I'm not proposing to emigrate that doesn't worry me either - and I think it was more to do with countries that don't have quite the same standards of canine welfare necessarily.

reply to little jayne
endorsements only stand (apparently) if you have signed a contract saying you understand them. did you do this? otherwise you tell the kc you didnt understand and they lift them- so i heard. thats why my pups went with contract.

It is pointed out quite clearly on the puppy registration form that the breeder has to make the new owners aware of endorsements and they must sign to show this has been done and a copy kept by the breeder.

I know that some breeders seem unaware of this, so must advise that people really must read the paperwork carefully as rules do change.

This rule about endorsements being upheld if owners have signed to show they were informed has been around ever since they reduced the endorsements from four types (used to also have name unchangeable and not for exhibition) to just the two, and initially a separate note was sent to breeders to point out this change.

Our little boy isn't endorsed, well the breeder never told us and we certainly didn't sign anything!

Its a good job we are sensible owners and have no intention of breeding from him then isn't it!!:rolleyes:

I agree that people should endorse all their puppies if possible, that way it would help to stamp out these back street breeders.

Have you looked on his registration certificate, as it woudl say there under the heading endorsements.

Our dog came with an endorsment, I was totally unaware that it would be though, we were hoping for a bitch and breeder had exlained that a bitch would be endorsed, I certainly never signed anything.
However breeding would have been the last thing on my mind until I came across CD.

Karen

Did you have no puppy contract?  That is where I put about the endorsements.

The only place I was aware of the endorsment was on the KC papers!
I dont remember a contract that was actually signed by either of us. Nor do I have any in his box of bits.
Not a problem for me though, as very decent breeder and I can fully understand (now) the reasons. I expect it was naievety on her part.
Karen ;-)

So am i right in understanding in that instance it would be quite easy for owner to lift, if The KC were got in touch with ? Just trying to uderstand this process better.. Excellent safe Guard for the progeny if done right me thinks.

Yes the KC would lift it if it was proved that the owners didn't have anything in writing to say that the restrictions were on there and that they didn't know about it.  Spoken word of course cannot be trusted.

I have also known people to do all the health tests etc. with excellent results and to think it would be lifted and it hasn't been, which I think is unfair especially if they've paid a lot of money for said dog.  I have to say that if it was my dog and a wonderful example I would be pleased that my kennel name was being continued especially if the owners were ones that you knew would help the breed.

There is nothing under "endorsements" on his papers!

No puppy contract just a bit of paper saying "to be cared for":rolleyes:

Well then he hasn't any.  Most good breeders these days endorse and write dome form of puppy sales agreement.  when I bought my foundation bitch in 1992 breeders still rarely used any written contract as selling a pup was considered a matter of mutual trust between breeder and buyer, but sadly with people becoming more litigious, claiming they had been promised a champion or a certain stud or brood etc, wisely most now have something in writing. 

Mine for example says the pup is sold as a companion, if they turn out to be champions and or producers of quality stock it is a bonus, that is in the future and not possible to be sure of at 8 weeks.

No breeder can know that the promising 8 week pup will not end up with a bad mouth, undescended testicle, fail eye test, have poor hip score, go over or under size or any one of many other things that would preclude them being used for breeding.

Even a pup that is almost certain to look like it may be the quality to become champion may hate showing, or just be unlucky against another quality dog, be poorly handled or presented, thereby not reaching it's potential.

Well at least we have the sense to leave the breeding to the experienced breeders!!!

Although there are these endorsements i've still seen lots of puppies for sale at a reduced price with no kc papers!!!

The breeder we used is well known in the show circuit and does produce very good puppies but isn't great with the paperwork side of things!!:rolleyes:

Our little boy wasn't actually her puppy he was hers on breeders terms as his mum was her breeding originally.

In the past most breeders didn't do paperwork, just sign the registration form after registering the pups.. 

There is so much of it now, it is a nightmare when pups are going to new homes,. get the contracts ready, get the pups insured, Fill out your own records with new owners names and addresses, get the registration forms completed and signed so new owners can register pup in their own name ditto with Tattoo or Chip paperwork.  People are fussing nd cooing over pup and all this paperwork to do and double check. 

Even worse when more than one is coming the same day and they come in the wrong order or arrive together because one is early and the other late!

Then when they have gone, if you have given puppy packs from a dog food manufacturer you have to fill pout forms with the new owner details.:rolleyes:

I agree Barbara - my litters have been big ones, and the paperwork seems never-ending. I do a draft contract for the new owners to take home when they first visit the puppies so they can read it properly first, but its a nightmare getting all the puppy packs etc. together on the day the pups leave. I make sure that no more than 3 go in one day, and would much rather keep it at 2 if poss. At least Pet-plan insurance can be activated in advance which is another (small) help.

I've only had two litters , but started doing the puppy packs as soon as they were born!!  Each pup had a folder of it's own with pedigree, puppy contract, diet sheets, worming info etc, then later their registration papers (It's the only time I've ever been organised!!)  I probably went ott, but the owners were happy with all the info and I was happy that I'd given them everything I could (they could still phone me at any time)
My pups all had endorsements.  The owners signed that they undertsood what it meant and I kept a copy.  I also signed, that I would lift endorsements only after health testing, if the animal was of sound temperament, a good specimen, and in the case of a bitch, that I was happy with the stud dog.  Never had any problems :-)