Please can anyone give advice for my friend. She has a bitch that is currently being shown by her "friend" and co-owner. I say "owner" but this is only on paper as no monies changed hands. The bitch was put in Joint names to allow one of the partnership to show the bitch without having to get the entry signed each time by her real owner(My friend). Confused?.... I hope not too much!
Anyway, the "friendship" has broken down, and the lady that has the bitch living with her and being shown by her, is refusing to give the bitch back to her breeder (my friend). She is claiming "that the bitch is half mine now", so won't let her go back to her breeder.
My friend is at her wits end and doesn't know what she can do to get her bitch back. The Kennel Club say that they can't do anything, as she is in Joint Ownership. Has anyone any similar experience of this? Can anyone give any advice, please? This bitch is the last of my friends breed line!

I'm afraid this is one of those situations that arises when contracts are not drawn up.

I say "owner" but this is only on paper as no monies changed hands.

It doesn't matter if money has changed hands or not.  If the person is down as owner (or joint owner) on the registration documents, that's all that matters in the KC's eyes.

The bitch was put in Joint names to allow one of the partnership to show the bitch without having to get the entry signed each time by her real owner(My friend).

The 'friend' have entered and shown the bitch by putting her name, followed by 'handling for' and then the owners name.  She can then put her address and not the owners' address.

She is claiming "that the bitch is half mine now",

Unfortunately she is right in the KC's eyes.

I have had several dogs in partnership and on terms and everything has been written in contracts.  This is the only way to do it IMO. 

I don't think there's anything your friend can do other than to appeal to the other person's better nature and try and work something out.

Debs

Well it seems as though both parties have a claim on the bitch. I dont see that your friend has a legal or moral right to demand the return of the bitch. Although no money may have changed hands ( the same as my own co ownership arrangement) the person that has the bitch living with her has presumably had the financial responsibility of feeding, veterinary care, and general care. I would certainly feel pretty aggrieved if Zorro's co owner demanded him back after the money I had spent on him! Not to mention what is in the dogs best interest - isnt it selfish to drag the bitch away from her owner and home?
If your friend really wants to drag from its home, i hope she is doing it for reasons other than petty selfishness. At the very least if she wishes to have the dog returned to her she should offer the other person an appropriate financial settlement to compensate for expenses incurred....If she doesnt do this she has basically aquired free kennelling from this woman!
There are a few possible outcomes to this:
1. your friend offers the co owner a financial settlement to cover half  of the expenses incurred during the period that the bitch resided there, plus half the cost of the dogs market value.
2. The person with whom the dog lives offers your friend half the cost of the dogs current market value
3. Your friend accepts that it was her own silly fault for making such an arrangement:rolleyes:
4. consider the "wisdom of solomon".   http://www.jamboree.freedom-in-education.co.uk/real_history/solomon.htm

This is a dog, a living being, and let them do what is in the best interest of the DOG

She could also ask for a bitch pup back as the oether person got their bitch without payign for ehr then it woudl seem fair that yoru freidn got the same back from her, and after she ahs her pup she can sign over the bitch into the other persons sole ownership.

I have to agree, I know that your friend is the breeder and being the last of her breeding line this bitch is very important to her too, but if the show owner is where the dog is raised, cared for and loved and knows as home it would be very cruel to demand her back and quite rightly she should stand her ground, I doubt very much that the show owner would want to be bought out.

As someone who breeds I can understand your friends frustration and her need to have a litter from this bitch. To be honest if the friendship has failed, I'm afraid that both parties are going to just have to get along at least when the right time comes for this bitch to be mated. Your friend is certainly entitled to have a litter from this bitch if that was the arrangement. I would just ask the show owner to bring the dog for mating and have legal papers sorted with regards to future pups, care of the bitch expenses etc all ready and waiting to avoid further complications.

These two are just going to have to come to an understanding.

The KC and the law of " real ownership" are two different things.

However the tricky things is how does she prove what she says. The first thing I would question if you ask me to play judge is WHAT was the handler getting out of it?  I dont know many people who would show a dog for someone even a freind without some sort of compensation, perhaps a puppy or something.   Was there a agreement that sounds solid.  Was she paying the handler or anything, these type of this go a long way in supporting  her claim.

The simple deal you have said ie the handler was possibly doing it for free and freindship would always be questionable based on probability..

to be honest it sounds like the ahndler/person the bitch has a better case.  As it stands it sounds like they ahd all the costs except paying for the bitch which is why the breeder was joint owner.

It costs a lot of money to keep and campaign a dog.

I am in partnership with a male and so far he has cost us apart from his purchse and quarantine over £7000 in 5 years, without taking into account his handlers petrol.

Exactly Brainless.

For me this is half a story.   No disrespect to the poster.

At the very least if the original breeder was even paying the expenses and show entries where no cost was meant by the handler at the least she/he probably would fairly be intitled to perhaps a puppy.

Sometimes when I re-read my posts I am ashamed at my typing :-D  it is not grammer generally, just poor typing.  I never check it before I post it.

I am the same and am glad of the Little program I have called ieSpell, with which I can spell check my entries.  My problem is mainly dyslexic typing and hitting more than one key.

Presumably the bitch isn't being ill-treated, so to rehome her would be unsettling for her to say the least, and should only be a very last resort. Can't your friend and the co-owner come to an understanding - perhaps having a litter from the bitch and each having half the pups, so that your friend can continue her line, and sign the bitch over fully to the other owner where (presumably) she's happy and settled?

To be brutally honest, I am really disappointed with the responses so far. Maybe I didn't give enough information. My friend has raised the bitch from a puppy and has paid half of all expenses for keeping and campaigning  her. The dog has mainly lived with her breeder until the last 12 mths or so. The person showing her was doing a favour for my friend who is a pensioner and not as light on her feet as she used to be! Maybe I am too naive and trusting but ALL the people I have spoken to at shows have been as shocked and upset about the goings on as I am. I would never do such a thing to anybody, let alone someone I considered a friend.

Unfortantly this is what happeneds with partnerships when contracts arn't drawen up stateing all ifs and buts.  Your friend doesn't have a leg to stand on re ownership as the dog belongs to both owners (money not changing hands is not anything.  you don't give a gift and then take it back do you?

The only thing your friend can do is try to reason with the other owner and come to some agreement ie she buys the other half of the bitch back or something along those lines.

>To be brutally honest, I am really disappointed with the responses so far.

Well if these wern't the answers you wanted to hear why ask?

>I would never do such a thing to anybody, let alone someone I considered a friend.

Neither would I but if I was to have a falling out with someone I know I would feel differently.  I would no longer consider them a friend.

The main importance in this is that the best is done for the bitch.

Also I don't know what the reason is for your friend falling out with her friend/co-owner of dog but is it something that will blow over shortly and be forgotten about?

Moral of the story for everyone...Trust no-one :(

I suppose I stupidly thought that most people would be honest and that maybe they would think like me. Obviously I was wrong. I just feel very strongly that what has happened is wrong and suppose I thought that I was not alone. I was looking for construcive advice not criticism, as I know that if a contract had been drawn up, things would have been different but they weren't and hindsight "is a wonderful thing" as they say but I just wanted to be able to help my dear friend.

I would never have gone into partnership in owning our male without a contract, even though we are all the best of friends.  The lack of a clear contract is usually what sours a friendship as people make different assumptions about what the agreement entails.

lopear
people can only comment on the information that is given, and if you cant be bothered to give that info in the original post, then you wont get the help you need. There is little point being rude to people who have taken their personal  time to give comments. . And frankly I RESENT your implication that I and others are not honest people. You may well consider yourself honest bur you are incredibly rude. How the heck do you expect us to be telepathic enough to know the circunstances if you dont tell us?

>The bitch was put in Joint names to allow one of the partnership to show the bitch without having to get the entry signed each time by her real owner(My friend).<

I co-own a dog, both names on registration, but I was to the understanding that if two people own one dog then BOTH have to sign the entry forms for showing?
Anyway, what I don't understand is if your friend (breeder) owned the dog up till 12 months ago, why did she re register and put the other persons name on it? Why not just fill in the entry forms herself? It doesn't matter where the dog lives at the time of entry, just who owns it, so your friend could have filled in any forms ??
As to how your friend will get her dog back, I haven't a clue. You could try that dog solicitor fella, can't remember his name, see what he says.

>I co-own a dog, both names on registration, but I was to the understanding that if two people own one dog then BOTH have to sign the entry forms for showing?

I don't know about the showing part, but I know that for a co-owned stud dog, only one of the owners' signatures is needed on the stud form.

really JG ? when Alfie was used all three of us had to sign his stud form.  With show entries all owners have to sign unless they have sent a letter to the KC giving permission for only one to sign.

Truly. Only one signature was needed, and the litter was duly registered.

It could be that a similar letter was lodged with the KC. :)

I co own two dogs and all show entries are only ever signed by me.

That is interesting as the KC told us one signature was OK for show entries (until then I had stickers with all foru signatures on), but we have always all signed the registration forms.

Although I'm no longer showing my co owned dogs, I was the only one that ever signed the entry forms. The dogs live with me, I paid the fees and I was never asked for any more than the one signature (Crufts entries included)

Dawn R.

this is probably a little different but i had an entry sent back for leeds my huband and i are co owners and i hadnt signed his name (oops i mean i hadnt forged his name :D )

The KC have stated that only one signature is needed for co-owned dogs, although you should have an 'agreement' to this effect in written form between the owners.

I am the only one that ever signs the forms for our co-owns and have never had a problem.

M.

That makes things rather different.  Your first post made it seem that in order to be joint owner the breeder didn't take payment for the bitch and the other person had maintained and campaigned her.  In that case a puppy back would have been more than fair.

Hi lopear
Just wanted to say, I agree that what happened was horribly unfair. Its a little easier for me because I know the lady in question (your friend) through a mutual friend and I know that she was fooled by this woman and totally taken advantage of. She is a lovely lady who trusted this woman. I know your friend has been building her line for, I guess 30+ years?
I wish I could offer more help, I hope there can be a good outcome.

Linsxxx 
:)

That is why both Brainless and I said no disrespect to you and there may be more to the story because your original post lack information. The replies were right based on the information you gave in the first place.

Now we have the rest of the story, more than in the 1st post ;-)  people can offer advise probably more in line with what you were looking for.  the posts are honestly not personal just based on the info first given.

My open post suggested half the info was missing and it was  :-)

Regardless of freindship and often more so in freindship contracts are always better in place. This won't help this situation of course.

My only advice would be a nice friendly letter to the person who has the bitch from the breeder asking for a puppy back from a litter and that she would then be willing to transfer to the other persons sole ownership.

the breeder will have her line back and gently point out to the other person that they will still have a bitch that they didn't pay for and whose upkeep was being half met all this time, a  real bargain.

Otherwise i suppose the only thing your friend can do is take her to small claims for the price of the bitch and the monies she has spent on her for which she has had no benefit, but will it be worth it?

Thanks for the replies, but I wish now that I hadn't posed the topic. I seem to have upset a lot of people and that is not what I was trying to do. I was merely trying to help a dear friend. Sorry for any offence caused. I was not able to give full details as I did not want any individual parties identified. I certainly didn't wish to insinuate (sp?) that anybody was dishonest apart from the person who has my friend's bitch.

I am very glad you posted the topic as it shows the pitfalls of partnerships, breeding terms etc, where so may misunderstandings can occur, and without anything in writing a positive outcome for the aggrieved party is unlikely.

Lopear,
I am sure nobody has been upset by your posting. You sound a genuine kind and caring person gauging from your posts. I do hope that your friend is able to get her girl back and the other person is able to see the upset this has caused for your friend. If your friend has legal protection on say her household insurance or a club such as the countryside alliance that offer free legal advice and representation it would be well worth her having a chat with them..Maybe a stern solicitors letter will o the trick.

These co-ownerships can work wonderfully but also go horribly wrong. Thank you for hi-lighting the downside for us.

I co-own all of my dogs, one with his breeder in Spain and all the rest are my mum and I's. I sign all the show entries myself, but for registration I have always been led to believe that both signatories are needed, if not this is very tricky ground because someone could use the male or female with a dog that the other owner may not agree with and would never have allowed to have been used if they'd of known!!  I alway thought that all owners had to sign the registration form, isn't that why there's space for all of them?

I would never ever go into co-ownership with a bitch and not even with a written contract.  I have with Lastar and have in the past and I'm sorry but you always find out who your TRUE firends are when you do something like this:rolleyes:

Excellent, I can stop forging signatures on my show entries then ;)

Only one signature is needed as long as that person can produce a letter from the other owners, if asked to by an offical of the club you are entering or the KC :)

This is what I was told by my grandfather who had someone ask him so he phoned the KC.  Thats the answer he got (well he told me)

My first posting just joined CD after I read your post as I have been through s similar experience and know how truamatic it is. My case is slightly different because my dog is in joint names with my husband he was bought as a pet together with our older dog, the breeder asked to show him after we had bought him, she was a so  called trusted friend. All was well until he gained his JW. The breeder asked for him to be put into joint names hers and mine then she said he was underweight and needed to stay with her as he wasn`t happy with us, I let him go thinking I was making him unhappy, then the truth came out it was a plan to get my dog back at this stage I was accused of mistreating him he was anxious malnourished and in a terrible state. I fought back first by stopping them showing him by putting it in writing to the breeder (KC advice) a restiction was placed at the KC so that they couldn`t use him for stud and finally we went through the small claims court and won. Well worth it. The police had also seized him from the breeders house before it went to court but he was our sole property as they call a dog. This is a very long story shortend as best I can, I just wanted your friend to know it is posssible to fight back and if I can help her in any way I will. Good Luck  

I fought back first by stopping them showing him by putting it in writing to the breeder (KC advice) a restiction was placed at the KC so that they couldn`t use him for stud
can this be done with this girl while the dispute is worked through? 

Thanks Javey, that's very useful information for everyone.

Dawn R.

Apparently, there is nothing that can be done to stop her being shown because she is in joint name but the KC suggested sending them a letter stating that no offspring from the bitch were to be registered. This still doesn't get the bitch back though.
I am interested Javey, that you said that the Police went to get your dog back, even before the court case, can this be done if the dog is in joint name?

the KC suggested sending them a letter stating that no offspring from the bitch were to be registered

But surely Lopear that would be cutting off the breeders nose so to speak, this is why the bitch is so important to your friend and one of the reasons that she wants her back. Unfortunately she did sign joint ownership, so we have to look at this case rightly or wrongly as it stands legally.

If the bitch will continue to be shown as it is unfortunately in joint names, then the breeder is also entitled to breed if and when she wants too, she still part owns this bitch. If I were her I would push to be as awkward as possible to have the bitch with her for health tests etc in preparation for breeding, she needs to take control and make it clear this is a joint ownership not a solo, if I were her I would also be asking to have the bitch back in my care for breeding and raising of puppies etc, as she is experienced and the show partner is not, that way the show partner may see that she is not in complete control of this bitch the way she thinks she is.

Just as an added interest how is the bitch doing in the show world and anything this dog wins is it all kept by the show owner? If so this may be a case for all breeding rights, pups etc then belonging to the breeder, if this is the way that the split partnership is to go, for goodness sake help your friend to go and see a solicitor and get papers drawn up.

If the show partner:rolleyes:  will not comply with the breeder having the bitch for at least 16 weeks  (pre, during and after whelping) then there may well be a case for breech of partnership in which case it may go to court and a court will decide on ownership and who should buying who out.

I feel really sorry for your friend if duped by this woman, but she still has many rights over this bitch, make sure that she uses them. :-)

Maybe the police won`t act in your case as the bitch is co owned, my dog is registered by me and my husband even so the police wouldn`t act at first we had to put in a complaint as the police officer wouldn`t even discuss the case, the breeder had told this officer she had spent thousands of pounds putting the dog right after the damage we had caused, she just forgot to mention she was still showing him and he was winning or being placed at Championship shows. I thought maybe in your friends case by stopping showing/breeding it may open the door for negotiation afterall she still owns half the bitch. 

"Just as an added interest how is the bitch doing in the show world and anything this dog wins is it all kept by the show owner? "

No matter how well she may be doing in the ring the costs of entries and travel far outweigh any prize money in cash or kind available at shows these days.

No matter how well she may be doing in the ring the costs of entries and travel far outweigh any prize money in cash or kind available at shows these days.


Totally agree, a trophy and placings is worth more than money any day ;-) I was wondering whether the breeder was getting any acclaim for the bitch doing well, or whether the show partner was keeping any trophies, rosettes and interest from the bitch doing well.  If this 'lady' was keeping everything from the show side when it is a joint ownership now, then I surmised that anything to do with the breeding side should then go to the breeder.

If this is not to be the case then the breeder needs to make sure she is getting her fair share of any show results, and I would be grabbing any trophies associated with this bitch, it is the breeders bitch and a bad decision in joint signing, legally she is entitled to half of everything unless they come to another arrangemet.  I personally would do everything I could to pee this 'lady' off if I was ever duped like this, with no contract to say who owns what, where and how, the breeder can have what she likes as there is nothing to say any different. 

>Apparently, there is nothing that can be done to stop her being shown because she is in joint name

This seems odd to me.  As we've discussed on here lately, a single signature is acceptable on a show entry form but the KC advise you to have a written agreement to that effect in place. Online entries ask you to tick a box stating that you are either the owner or have the permission of all owners to enter. What's the point of all that if a joint owner doesn't have any control over whether a dog is shown or not?

M.

I am only repeating what the KC told me when I phoned them. They said, as the bitch is in joint name, she can do nothing to stop the other person from showing her.:rolleyes:

I have a letter from the legal department at the KC which will help, can you contact me? as this site is new to me not sure how you go about such things. Or can I print a paragraph on here?  

Click on the posters name and you will be able to send a private message from there.HTH

i would be very interested to see anything that could possibally prevent this type of situation,or help. It could be useful to many in a similar situation (and im sure there is more than a few).. Is this something we could all download maybe from the Kc site?

Showing surely can be prevented if the other owner informs the Kennel club that they have not agreed to it?