We went to Moreton Show today and was shocked to see the amount of Chocolate Labs They were everywhere you looked The worst thing though is the amount of bad looking examples and temperaments alot of them had :(

It saddens me seeing the increase over the last few years and what it is doing to the breed because of the popularity and the breeders that are chucking them out for the £ssss :(

Lucy
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A good quality chocolate lab is very much a rarity now. :(

Tell me about it :(

It makes me so angry to see so many bad examples.

I spoke to a woman out walking her 2 black Labs one day and she said her neighbour had a chocolate bitch and mated her because they wanted a new conservatory!   No health testing, no thought to pedigrees, type, temperament etc.

Ditto someone in a village closeby, he sent his chocolate bitch to get mated and she was so aggressive the dog couldn't get a proper mating - thankfully she missed.  Again, no word of hip scores, eye tests etc.

This is what many people are doing :rolleyes:

I had a litter off my first Chocolate bitch but went to one of the best breeders to do it :)

I have not had a litter since as have never been in a situation that I was able to do it again. Since then (16 years ago) I have seen my breed /colour descend into what is a nightmare as I am not sure now I want to carry on. The pup I am getting hopefully in Dec will be the start of me beginning breeding amd showing but not sure if I want to now :(

I know if I do breed it will be for the good of Labs and that I want to maintain and improve the breed and be proud of the dogs I produce :)
Lucy
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Bless one of my very well bred choccie girls who has been so busy today and is cream crackered and is cuddling and head is snuggling the hoover :D :D

Which of your others is the hoover? ;) :D

The breed badly needs people who breed good ones.
If only there was a way to nuke the bad breeders.

could not agree more JG...

I have lost count of the calls I have had for Chocolate pups.. I dont 'DO' chocolate.. but its the same old story.. supply and demand.. a puppy farmers dream (or byb and pet)

I had a call recently (local) to ask if they could use my 'liver' boy (they say choc) and I said no  (my boy is too young and I dont stand them at stud anyway) and suggested a good breeder.. the reply... Oh no.. just looking for someone local..plenty around.. no need to travel    And I have no doubt she will find someone.. any chocolate boy will do.. :( 

Maybe the official colour description should be changed to Liver, with no mention of chocolate.  After all there are no chocolate Springers or german pointers.

They were originally Liver... how they got to chocolate I have no idea.. but the theory is puppy farmers  'sales gimmick'... many years ago.. breeders actually culled any liver inthe litter....   I have had one liver pup.. out of my black girl.. all pups were black he was the only liver.. and I registered him as liver.. he is not a gimmick, nor a sweetie (he is but you know what I mean :D ).. simply a good liver labrador... (reserve at SKC :D )  But he is not a money spinner, nor a breeding machine.. he is what he is.. a pet, a showboy, and a real honey in temperament :P

But its not just the Chocs.. yes we are noticing more of them.. but take a look at some of the yellows and blacks too.. some of these are abominations.. the breed standard is lost on them :(

Yep black whippets, self colured  Rotties, and sandy something or others.

Showing my ignorance here, but I thought they were called 'Brown' (yes they looked liver to me too ;) )  before the 'fashion' for chocolate ?  but very sad to see so many labs (and other breeds) ruined by being bred without reference to the breed standard :(

I saw an ad in the local paper for "white" Labs today

I think in about the last 5 years, I've seen 4 good labs that I can think of.  Maybe.  Two of them - a choc and a yellow - were boarders at a kennels, lovely temperaments, and good lookers too - but not what I'd guess to be breeding/showing quality, by a long shot.  The other two I see in the woods of a morning sometimes, both blacks and very lovely boys.  Nice size from what i can see (have to keep some distance because of Soli) and they look good too.

The rest have been obviously badly bred - one (again at kennels) was only 4 months old, but it was already obvious that he was going to be an abslutely appauling example.  He was a scrawny yellow, head shape not right, mismarked (I know it happens but he had a big white blaze on his chest), not well constructed at all.

I always find myself keeping an eye on labs I meet out and about - where I used to live dodgy labs were the norm, or badly behaved ones.  Opi got bodybarged by a pup once, while the bloke chatted on his mobile. I had a go at him - something I don't normally do - but the pup didn't know any better and I hope I shocked him into training the poor lad before he got attacked by a less sociable dog than Opi.

ETA: I can think of one other good chocolate - a nice youngster called Rosie I used to see sometimes.  Well behaved, lovely owners and a beautiful dog.

This is why Lab rescue gets busier every year, some breeders can ask so much more for a chocolate lab than the other colours,and temprements are not being looked into...48 labs in our rescue in July alone, Aug wasnt much better...but we just keep on going....

Oddly it seemed to be the other way round where I was before (east of Medway in Kent) - the few chocolates I saw (and there weren't many) tended to be the better ones.  One was an absolute nightmare but that's because it's owner was terminally stupid, it and its black friend never had collars on and would run up and piss off any dogs within about a mile.  But I digress!

It was blacks that tended to be the worst, in fact one of the 3 dogs that have bitten me was a black - no punctures but apparently he was known to be unpredictable (again, boarding kennel dog).  I do recall seeing an incredibly oversized black at that kennels - we're talking greyhound height, and the owner was looking to breed him.  On the upside he was a smashing dog, beautiful temperament.

I don't know how you cope hairydog - such a popular breed, I can imagine it must get so hard, what with numpties buying them then realising the work they need as cutesy pup grows up.  Well done you.

it and its black friend never had collars on

Ive noticed ALOT of labs without collars, more than other breeds, must be a Gundog/sliplead thing

I've noticed that too, there are a few working labs round here - smaller than the others and much better behaved.  The choc and black I used to see were not workers - they were extremely disobedient, overweight and generally pains in the hiney! :D

are the labs registered as Choclate then?i thought it was just a slang term! they should DEF be registered as liver. My friend has a liver Flatcoat which is the same sort of colour

>they should DEF be registered as liver.

The breed standard states that the colour can be described as either liver or chocolate. (Using a different breed description only muddies the water; poodles of the same colour are described as 'brown'!)

That is why maybe the breed clubs should ask to change the description  to only Liver.  It might not make much difference but surely would do no harm.

I think it would be worth them just getting reg'd as liver and the word spread -it sounds MUCH less desirable to have a LIVER dog than a CHOCOLATE and to some weird people, the breed description does matter a lot, believe it or not.

> MUCH less desirable to have a LIVER dog than a CHOCOLATE

My mother refuses to describe my GSP as liver and white, she always says brown and white. :rolleyes: I have to say I've only heard of labs described as chocolate, never as liver - I didn't realise they were meant to count as liver (though I did think it odd when it was the same colour as liver in gsps and flatcoats ;) ).

Maybe they should be just brown, this is what our breed is, although some "breeders" are using daft names for colours these days and I hate it I'm going to ask my breed club shortly to contact the KC with the colours that are acceptable so no more silly named colours are used :rolleyes:

Kay you have seen Moose and you agreed she is a super girl ;) Dudley mind you is not such a good example but she is from working lines and Drakeshead Garth is one of the best working lines you can get :) Shame about her HD :( But I wouldn't be without her
The new pupster will be a chunky athletic girl like Moose and Min and Mars before her :D The mum is a super looking girl and her siblings are as well

Lucy
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I absolutly loved Moose Lucy.. Dudley is completely different.. taller, leaner, but good for a days work ;)

Cant wait to see the pics of new pupster when she arrives :D  

oops.. edited.. TOS have PM'd you with my news :D

 

agree with this too.............. but I do wish the KC would practise what they preach, the advice they give is not to buy from higher than average hip scoring parents, but they don't go as far as to not register litters from such parents also if they didn't register pups from untested parents, it may make people think twice about breeding from their pets.....

.............unfortunately, the KC is a business at the end of the day, and to turn these litters away would be a huge loss of earnings for them and others would say, that those that do no health testing etc, would still breed anyway giving no thought to whether the parents are a good match, have sound joints and as healthy as possible eyes, nor any thoughts as to how a Labrador should look

Chocymolly consider this one.

I took in 2 yellow bitches to be hip scored and left them there. When I returned the x rays were there to look at, both x rays had the same mark acorss the same hip and when put over the top of one another were identical.
Yet the vet said no he had done both dogs. Sent them off and one dog was 7 and one 11. I have since spoken to the vet I have always used for hips and he says the chances of two dogs having the same mark on the same hip is a million to one, having them x rayed on the same day is even worse odds!!! I will now travel to Tavistock, Devon from here to have my dogs hips scored in future.

Was it definitely a mark on the hip or could it have been a mark on the Xray plate?

Nope a mark on the hip.

I would NEVER take in the same colour, same sex combination again for hip scoring, would rather travel further afield to have hips done

Am I missing something

can't see the relevance to the original post

I think if that had happened and I was concerned like you sound............surely it is something you could have queried with the BVA/KC? Luckily, where I go, we are in with our dogs when they are x-rayed so no chance of that happening

Not sure what my chocolate lab is good or bad, but I love him so much.  He's a good boy although has his socialisation problems which we work on daily, he continues to improve in leaps and bounds.   I weighed him today for worming purposes and he's heavy and I must look into how much he should weigh, but to me he's not fat at all, he's very stocky and well built but I don't somehow think he would like right weighing less.  Where I work for 6hrs a week they have two labs, one (male) is so skinny, lovely well adjusted temprement but skinny and the other a bitch, although think is just so small.  Mine looks like a monster compared to them two. 

Has he a waist (not hour galss, but definite waist) when you look at him from above and can you easily feel his last two ribs without having to press.  Can you just feel his backbone, but not count the vertebrae.

If the answers are no then he is too fat, no matter how solid.

As to what he should weigh as Labradors can be so varied in size and build it is hard to say not knowing these things.

I'll check him over Brainless when I get home.  When he went to the vets for his booster jab, they did say he was a good size and not to put anymore weight on but he wasn't overweight.  He gets plenty of exercise and is not your typical lab that I keep reading about. He's not greedy and is scared of water.  We went to a kite festival a little while back and took him,he lies beside the picnic blanket, looking away.  He's such a good boy and I really couldn't imagine being without him now. 

Thing is often Vets don't with to offend their customers so may be diplomatic about suggesting a dog is overweight if it isn't excessively so. 

He will be healthier a bit on the lean side than a bit on the chubby side as he ages this will benefit his joints especially and his heart. 

As he is a rescue you don't know how good his genetic joint outlook is, so the more you can do to ensure he is not carrying excess weight and getting plenty of muscle building exercise the better.

Well I hope mine are in the "good example" catagory :)

May I just say chocymolly, I've just looked at your webiste and believe me your dogs are gorgeous!  How shiny are they?  Beautiful labs, absolutely beautiful.  I got Biscuit when he was just over two, his coat is not too bad, he hates water!  I do brush but he has a problem with something that if you feel like giving advice I could ask?? hint hint!

Thankyou Lesley, a lovely compliment

TBH, I do absolutely nothing to their coats I rarely brush them the most they are brushed is when they are moulting............ rarely bath them, in fact Izzy had her 1st bath at the weekend, and that was really just her muddy parts :D

They are fed a complete biscuit meal.......

Chocmolly, some dogs with higher than above average can produce siblings with much lower than breed average.  As the KC genetecist says, a dog is much more than hips.  Pups that I have bred in the last 2 years have had a fantastic temperament, are great examples of the breed (one winning best import last week and a number of best bitches this year) were all bred by said dog and all have below the breed average hipscores.

Luckily I knew a lot of his offsprings history as there are many by him in Europe where I can actually view their hipscores via the WWW.

Though when it comes to Lab's really only the very best should be bred from as there's enough of them around to be able to do this.

If "Joe Bloggs" had owned that Sire, and came on here asking for advice as to whether he should use it at stud, he'd have been told a very firm "NO!".........
Luckily for you, it has been a risk worth taking

When I was looking for Molly, I went to view a litter of pups, the hip scores of the parents were a total of 24 for the sire and 36 for the dam ( the breed average being 15 ) THIS is where the KC should step in and not register a litter IMO as well as all those that have no hip scores done

If one score was slightly above average, mated to a very low score, it wouldn't give so much cause for concern.

I do agree with your comment: If no hip scores are done on either parent then the Kennel Club should not register the litter but it comes down to money as we all know.

My vet in Devon does the hips whilst you are there and have actually had 3 dogs done on the same day before with him.

Have also been and had a sneaky look at your labs and they look stunning so healthy and wonderful coats!!