Those of you who have multiple dogs, how do you recognise which dog is in charge of the rest? I know there are sometimes obvious things to see, but how do you read it if it seems to be one some of the time and another at other times?

I have three dogs, two bitches aged 3 years and one boy aged 5 months, I tend to notice that my younger bitch (and smaller but same breed) is alfa as the others allow her to take the first drink from the water bowl, do not go near her if she has a bone, and they also give up their bone if she walks to them gently growling.
I have the feed the bitches separately as the alfa bitch will eat her food then eat my other girls food! With no arguments!

That is an interesting question, I have 2 dogs, Jasper entire aged 17 months and Henry castrated aged about 2.  I don't think either of them is the alpha dog, can that be right or does one have to be?

They both try to steal each others bones   and as soon as they finish their meal they both run to the others bowl, just in case there is something left :rolleyes:

They play extremely rough, and when playing tug, I know Jasper is the stronger but to keep the game going he allows Henry to win for a while!  If Jasper wants to play and Henry is asleep Jasper will nibble his ears and if Henry wants to play and Jasper is asleep Henry sits on Jasper's head :D

I think people are a lot more obsessed with the alpha dog and dominance than the dogs are.  Multi dog household pack hierarchy is often pretty fluid, they often take charge over different things.  While one dog maybe happy for another to walk up and take their toy away they may feel differently if it were a bone or vice versa for another dog. 

If a dog takes a bone off another dog using a growl - that is usually more to do with more bullying or intimidation than being top dog.  In the wild even low ranking dogs will defend their food from an alpha if it is already in their possesion.

I agree, IMO it's a constant fluid dynamic interchanging structure.  Dogs all have roles and pack dynamics is a bit overplayed in domestic dogs IMO.  It's not about dominance, it's about leadership, respect and survival.  Alphas have to be chosen and accepted by the rest of the pack.

There is no particular pecking order here; one dog takes the lead role, the other gives the lead role, in different circumstances.  Never a disagreement between them.

ive got two staffys kacey who is 12 months and bailey who is 8 months both girls i used to think bailey saw herself as top dog because she would do what she wanted when she wanted like if kacey was eating bailey would push her head out the way and kacey would move and lie down also kacey would let bailey be the first in everything
but as i was told by some of the members on here kace only allowed bailey to do this things because she was only a puppy.
i realised kacey was top dog after i witnessed her eating a bone bailey tried to take it off her and kacey snapped at her bailey soon got the hint and walked off and then again when bailey wanted to play with kacey she would dive on her...kacey having enough growled at bailey and flipped her on her back and stood over her growling bailey just lay there

It's mainly a case of what the top dog DOESN'T do I'd say. You see how the other dogs react. My current top bitch only needs to look at another dog and it will back off. She will interevene in disagreements just by walking in between and using body language. She never needs to fight, bully, bite, snap, growl, bark, anything, because all she needs is body language and her eyes and the other dogs will react to it. And nobody but nobody starts a fight with her. As an example, my new Papillon bitch has been very difficult with big dogs. When she was introduced to my MIL's Labrador she bit her, chased her etc. When meeting my youngest malinois she snapped at her hind legs. When she met my top bitch, all it took was one look and the pap didn't do anything at all, whereas with any other dog the least she'd do was bark like mad.

I don't think food and toys come into it at all.

I have Dicksy an entire Cocker aged 4 and Biscuit castrated lab aged 2.5.  Dicksy is the top dog!  He takes Biscuit's bones/pigs ears off him and Biscuit just watches and Dicksy hides them at the edge of the garden (as nobody can see that!) goes off gets his own and watches the one he's placed at the edge of the garden!  Takes everything if you don't watch him!

I agree with Marrianne my alfa bitch doesnt actually do anything the other dogs just know that she is in charge of the dogs and that I am in charge of all of them! they all take toys from one another , I dont give bones and they are all fed seperately , after years of standing guard with my male dogs I find it much easier to separate as they all relax and enjoy thier food , I can removed it from them no problem.
What I find amusing is if something appears that they dont like ie : I get the ladders out of the shed they all run and sit behind Ellie the alpha bitch when really I know she hates the ladder just as much as they do!!

Roni

I have stopped believing in one particular dog being in charge of the others wholesale.

I would go more with the "resource holding potential" idea - that different dogs can be the most assertive in different areas.  Of course, it is possible to have a dog that is assertive with the others in quite a few areas!  In my experience, there can still be one or more areas where that dog will let another run things.  I think this explains what munrogirl76 has noticed.

Probably makes no sense at all but I tried ...

With my four there is no top dog - they all have fluid positions depending on the situation (that's one dog and three bitches).  And it's constantly changing within that fluidity (if that makes any sense :p), particularly at the moment with River only having been here a month.  She's learning boundaries with the others and so the social dynamic is constantly shifting.

It was the same in my old house when I had Remy, Opi, and my brother's bitch - always changing, though there Tia was more often than not up the top.  I suspect that Remy and Opi are quite easy going when it comes to social details so things tend to just roll along happily.  More like a group of friends than a "typical" pack.

My three don't seem to have a pecking order except that Merlot has always been the spoilt child, her Mum lets her get away with anything and her Aunty Treacle seems just as easygoing with her, Merlot   is three years old now and they still treat her like a naughty puppy!! Hence she can always "get the bone, polish off someone elses dinner, have the best toy...and she never gets told off. (Except by Me )Think it's just that they are like one big happy family really. But they all know I'M the big dog in charge!!

All very interesting, thanks. So, looks like it varies depending on the dogs in the pack and their characters.

What I expected to see was a situation like Goldmali has where you have one dog (or bitch) that is definitely in charge and can keep control with just a look. Now Dorain certainly does some controlling with looks, and there are situations where he has definitely been sorting it out. But sometimes Duibh will growl if he gets 'looked' at by Dorain, and I've partly attributed it to his resource guarding (sometimes it's to do with a toy or something), but wasn't quite sure if it was him challenging, or their roles not being clear with each other. And sometimes Duibh seems to take the lead, like barking at sounds, and Dorain more joins in, in an 'I'm not sure why I'm barking but if he is then I ought to' way. And Duibh will muscle in for attention, but then again he'll often do it with a growl at Dorain which I think is probably more lack of confidence. So I think most of the time Dorain is in charge, but in certain situations Duibh takes the lead.

See, I've been puzzling over that one for months, and reading your replies I've solved it in a night. :D

Mine never explore each others bowls, but I always take up bowls as soon as dogs walk away so they don't get the chance, and they don't try to take treats off each other. Important things like bones and raw meat are given with a stairgate between them to avoid any.... misunderstandings. So Maria, even though yours don't seem to be either one in charge and will take things off each other, do they still live together happily and get on well?

I know 'dominance theory' etc is meant to be a load of tosh, and people aren't part of the pack structure, but I thought people believed that the dogs themselves had a pack structure. So do people think there is a strict structure, a fluid structure, or no structure at all?

Definitely a top bitch in this household.  She took over from her grandmother who wasn't nearly as in charge, but her Mother had no pretencions and only when Kizi got to five did she take over and the older girl (10) was OK about letting her, she was the middle one of five bitches.

She is very much alpha but the sweetest creature ever and the smallest.  Everyone treats her with great respect ad if they don't there would be trouble.  She is now the eldest of four bitches.

So I would say for the first 10 years there was a fairly easy going no-one in charge canine household.  so it may depend on how hierarchy orientated the dogs are.

Also those with dogs under about 3 years old are not dealing with socially mature individuals and things may well change once they reach that age.

I think it really does depend on the particular mix of dogs.  Having said that, I have read before that males tend to have a more rigid heirarchy than girls, but having only ever had the one boy I've no experience of that myself.

WIth my lot the middle two are just so easygoing that everything ebbs and flows, so there's no definite structure - but that's just my lot.  And of course Soli's largely absent social skills mean she's less likely to follow the expected ways :D  But I have seen other packs with a more obvious structure - I use to work for a woman with 4 GSDs and a collie, in two groups; two of the GSDs (the oldest) lived separate as the bitch despised the other GSD bitch and would have killed her.  With those two the bitch was most definitely top dog, and all the time.  With the other three, the collie was always top - the two GSDs would be playing constantly and have little tellings-off at each other, so they were more fluid, but that collie was always, always top.

We have four dogs:

Troy, 8-year old Pyrenean Mountain Dog (neutered male)
Dylan, 6-year old Saluki Lurcher (neutered male)
Flash, 3-year old Saluki Lurcher (neutered male)
Jesse, 8-months old American Cocker Spaniel (entire male)

Without doubt, our pyrenees is top dog, followed by Dylan. But it is not so much what they do to be higher ranking, it is more the behaviour of the lower ranking dogs that determines who is higher ranking. Troy is very laid back with all our dogs, he doesn't really get involved into too much, though he loves to play with them occasionally. But he really is the big old wise boy that just watches over everything.

The only thing that really gives away that he is top dog is the respect that the other dogs show for him. He cares about very little that they do, but there are a couple of things he doesn't like (being tred on and having treats/bones taken away from him) and he will let them know very clearly if they overstep the line. He will also warn them if they are getting close to the line.

Troy doesn't have to do any of the dominance stuff that books and behaviourists often try to make you believe. He is just there, he is naturally dominant and he is what I call a leader personality. The other three dogs agree with that and never challenge him.

Dylan is the same to the younger two. It's the respect they show to him, rather than anything that Dylan does as such.

Flash and Jesse are very interesting to watch at the moment, and I am not sure how that will develop. I have a feeling that Jesse might overtake Flash at some point, but Flash was the "puppy minder and teacher" for Jesse from 8 weeks old. It is Flash that taught him how to play, what to do and what not to do, it was Flash that taught him excellent bite inhibition and doggie communication. Through that, they have a very special relationship. It is extremely fascinating to watch those two interact. They are both toy possessive for example, yet, they have a perfect understanding as to what they can and can't do with each other and the toys, so we never have any problems in that respect.
They are extremely close and they have lots of respect for each other, but there isn't a clear line at all as to who is higher/lower ranking... that's probably because at this moment in time, there isn't any ranking between them! It'll be interesting to see how this develops as Jesse grows up.

Vera

>The only thing that really gives away that he is top dog is the respect that the other dogs show for him.

> But it is not so much what they do to be higher ranking, it is more the behaviour of the lower ranking dogs that determines who is higher ranking.

That's exactly the way I've always saw the pack structure. Top dog doesn't have to go around checking the ranks and making sure no one is stepping out of line.  Imagine the stress and energy wasted in that in terms of survival. The lower ranking dogs determine who is higher ranking and the pack falls into a hierarchal structure that is designed to give all members and the species in general the best chance at survival.