today i read the most awful critique. I have no axe to grind as i wasnt at the show....in fact i purposely didnt enter the show as i feared the judging would be dire!! Anyway back to the critique...here for example is what was said about BOB/CC..."i have been waiting for the opportunity to go over this classy b/t dog & he did not disapoint. I like everything about him & anyone considering breeding or showing would do well to look at him & see what a XXXXXXX should look like."
No what sort of a critique is that???? This judge is giving tickets for 1st time, has bred just 2 or 3 litters and not really had any successes, and from reading this i would say she knows very little about technical terms, balance or anatomy!!! she was being "assessed" at this show....but do you think the assesers read the critique???

Wel I get no minds eye picture of the dog the judge was looking at.

I take crits with a pinch of salt because I feel this fast tracking system is leading to people having very little/no experience in breeding &/or showing correctly constructed dogs.  It's more about seminars and stewarding experience.  Time & time again I read critiques stating such & such a dog has well laid shoulders when a protractor will tell you the angle is only 70 degrees.

One judge who is a KC accredited conformation & movement assessor wrote about my bitch that she was upright in shoulder but this will change with age!  Well firstly her shoulders are probably one of the best laid in the breed and have you ever seen a lay of shoulder change with age??????  

A dog with a 70' angle would have such laid back shoulders and return of upperam as to be crouching.  I think you mean the angle was wider than 90' to give badly laid shoulders, or straight upper arm.

Ooppps just shows you should read what you write before you post & then not walk away to trim your dog! 

I feel this fast tracking system   What fast tracking system.. have I missed something :-)

Maybe it affects breed to breed differently  In my breed it is very difficult to go up the judging ladder, so little classes at open shows ( you must have X amount of Classes as well as dogs) The majority seem to think the process is a lot slower in fact hindering. One of our breed clubs require min of 7 years juding , min of  80 classes , min of 250 dogs without CCs on offer.  Min of 3 Stud books.   I dont personally think that would allow for people to become judges quickly. Not in my breed anyway..

What fast tracking system

It's the Judges Development Program which is done for judges who already award CCs in at least 3 different breeds.  If you pass any breed you can halve the criteria asked for by the breed club.

Debs

There's people on my breed's A3 lists who haven't got the criteria for the one breed let alone 3 breeds!

Ahh - the phrase "save in exceptional circumstances" has a lot to answer for ;) If you have that or something similar on your criteria you can basically bypass all of the criteria for someone the Club wants to promote.  Also, anyone who's passed to judge Groups gets special dispensation too.

Debs

Well then your breed only has the clubs to thank because I believe you need support of one breed club. The form has to be signed off by them does it not?

When you say there are people who don't have the criteria do you mean in past times or since the newer requirements were put in place?

I can only see it being harder for people to award CC's when they have not met the basic requirements.

I know in our breed clubs there are very strict.

That is what I thought, they HAVE to give CC's first so would have to meet the breed club requirements in the first place to give CC. From the seminars and meetings I have attended some of the additional rules have caused problems for those with the genuine experience awarding CCs. I have not personally seen anything which lets judges " through" quicker or simpler.  I am talking first time CC givers.

Ahh if you're talking about first time appointments then no.  You can forgo a couple of classes or a few dogs judged, but that's about it.  Even so - one can still be awarding CCs within about 7 years of owning a breed, or indeed your first dog! That's really not very long at all is it.

Debs

Even so - one can still be awarding CCs within about 7 years of owning a breed, or indeed your first dog! That's really not very long at all is it. 

I don't honestly know anyone in my breed that has given CC's in 7 years.  All are at least 10 +  You just could not get the entries , dog numbers and classes to give CC's in that time.  Maybe different in other breeds I don't know.

I think how soon someone can judge really depends on the individual. There are many who have a great understanding of structure, conformation and movement, and a real understanding of each particular breeds purpose. Some people coming from true working backgrounds. I can think of many successful kennels who come from a long line of relatives who could do the job no problem. There will be some who have no experience of dogs whatsoever and their purpose etc who I agree would be useless at true judging in a short time.

There are probably people in many breeds for 20-30 years that are still showing poor quality dogs all this time on, others will quickly learn.

Time doesn't guarantee anything. IMHO.

The changes they have made probably streamline things a bit.

As new to the showing game i have a question regarding the judge's critique procedure - well a few questions really.

1 the last couple of shows i've been to its first and second getting a write up - is this for all shows breeds etc?

2 In minor puppy or puppy that i have entered mabel has always been placed effectively last (only 2 &3 entries each time) can i ask the judge why or this a no no. If i'm 3rd or lower no critque gets done so i i'll never know or what it is thats putting us lower and if i can improve her in anyway such as the way i handle her.

3 people say you have paid for the judges time and expert opinion so could there not be a discussion after the class like a school parents eveing! I know it would to be very brief otherwise it makes it all longer.

Lorri

Sadly the Kennel Club don't allow a judge tio critique in the ring, which I think is a shame as the judge woudl be telling you their thoughts and judging criteria as they went alogn and not be doing it after with the benefit of the catalogue :D

In other countries the judges even critique over a mike whilst judgng explaining why dog a went over dog b and each dog getws a written critique (woudln't be practival with out larger entries).

Overseas exhibitors though seem far less tocuhy about anythign negartive said about their dogs.

yes hearing it there and then would be so good. Hadn't thought that they can check the catalogue after, i suppose this means the critique could be 'bumped' up a bit

Well I'll have to wait and see what my first wirte up says from the Welsh Kennel club show - only 2 entries for minor pup so mabel gets a report!!

"Sadly the Kennel Club don't allow a judge to critique in the ring"

I think it's a shame too, years ago when Rainer Vourinen (sp?) was judging us at Southern Counties I thoroughly enjoyed it as he gave everybody in the line up his opinion as to why they were placed where they were. In open dog (which I won) he said to the first two that they could change places at any time, both well made, muscled, moved well etc he just preferred the head on the 1st and so on down the line. He done the same when handing out tickets, bob and best puppy.  I don't know if he still does this but I really liked it

Of course some judges wouldn't like this as it would become obvious very quickly if they didn't know what they were looking at or talking about, safer to do the critiques at home with the standard in front of them to save them making a fool of themselves :D

the last couple of shows i've been to its first and second getting a write up - is this for all shows breeds etc?

It's normal to do a critique on the first and second places at Championship shows only.  Open shows are only the first placing.  Some breed shows (open) ask for first and second but not many.  The only show you're asked to critique the first thee in each class is Crufts.

HTH

Debs

I wonder if exhibitors really would like to hear a public critique of their dog when the judge didnt like it. They do it in Europe - where a judge can only judge about 80 dogs a day. Wuld you want the ringside to be told your dog had a poor mouth, upright shoulders, dippy back etc. I wonder if the UK is really ready for full public honest crits on every dog, not just the winners?

I'm sure you're right, Baz, I know exhibitors who are still smarting from critiques with one unfavourable comment years on ... :D

M.

Well don't go into cat showing then, no holding back some of the judges involved with that hobby!  

At least with cat showing the judge is giving opinions of the cats and is not influenced by the owner. The anonymous , honest critiques have something to commend them.

It would be nice to actually find critiques in the dog press. I have been back in dogs after a long, long absense and am saddened by the total lack of consideration from some judges in not submitting critiques.  Most of the championship shows have only a small percentage of the classes actually criticised in the press. Something really should be done about this don't you think?  Or am I alone in this dismay?

Well if all the dogs are similarly critiqued then maybe it doesn't smart to much, exhibitors in countries where they are so critiqued certainly live with it, and if showing is supposed to be a tool for breeding better dogs then they sure could be helpful.

Surely many of the faults can be seen from ringside anyway.  I sometimes wonder what dog the judge had his hands on when I see the crit for dogs I know well, often criticising their virtues and praising their faults.

A mature dog I bred who has decent length of leg was critiscised for it recently   The standard calls for length of leg at least half the height at withers.

I dont think i would like it broadcast around the ring to spectators and all, but definitely a quick 1 to 1 on why you placed where you were could be helpful. No one else needs to hear - it would be just for the exhibitor. As you say its supposed to help with the breeding of a better dog - do we presume that if you are always near the bottom of your class your dog isn't worth breeding from? or could it just be something about the dogs coat or the way it is handled? these sorts of things can be improved upon but unless we know we cant do much about it.

I am speaking as a complete newbie to showing and feel that some of the shows are such a long distance and a little more from the judge would be nice!

When I refered to judging helping to breed better dogs I was in favour of open critiques as the ringside need to understand the judges placements as they will also be exhibitors, breeders, or others interested in teh breed.  It isn't just the dogs owner who needs to know.

oh sorry misunderstood - yes i agree with you but i suppose this will never happen.

We recently had a critique in the paper...putting a dog hound up because he was square! Our and the native country standard requires a rectangular outline ;-)

Have been in Sweden at a Stovare Show and LOVE them reading the critique in public.

Pam

Here in Sweden we get written critiques on all the dogs entered at a show. Sometimes, but not very often, the judge will say a few words about each dog he/she has placed. At Breed Specialtys the judge is more or less expected to openly give a critique in public to each dog placed from one to five in each class.
I personally like the written critiques. If it's a judge you admire, it's always interesting to read his/hers opinion on your dog. Of course you'll not always agree with what's said about your dog. But if ten out of eleven critiques say your dog is too short in body, it's probably true :p
Karen