Hi has anyone read this book (American) about what goes into pet food? It's by Ann Martin, and whilst much of what goes on in the USA doesn't (I hope) happen here, it is interesting reading. Be interested in the views of anyone who has read it, and whether it changed the way you feed?
Kat

The meat used in pet food in the UK has to be of of "human quality"& unannounced visits are done to production plants in the UK. Plus any imported food has to be certified that this is the case & all food has to have a detailed list of ingredients & analysis on each bag

No - I haven't read it, and nor do I intend to.   We aren't in the USA, and I've come to the way I feed my dogs through many, many years of what suits my dogs' health and my pocket :)

Margot

> Be interested in the views of anyone who has read it, and whether it changed the way you feed?

I suspect anyone who pays money for this book is already well into the subject.  Preaching to the converted sort of thing :)

Not sure I understand what you mean Isabel? I was lent the book and found it interesting, was simply asking a genuine question, so don't know where you are coming from.
Kat

If the publicity is to be believed (and personally I'm not convinced) then standards of manufacture of pet food in the US and other countries aren't all they could be. The recent deaths of several animals and the recall of various foods within the US and Canada due to the use of contaminated ingredients (from China, coincidentally) didn't help.

However the laws regarding pet food manufacture in the UK are very much higher. All meat used has to come from carcasses that have been passed as fit for human consumption, for example. So if you want to be as certain as you can be that the commercial food you use is satisfactory then make sure you buy a product that has been manufactured in this country and not imported. There are several very good ones to choose from. :)

I agree that we are led to believe that our standards are very much higher. However, one of the problems as I see it, is the import of ingredients such as protein meal (by-products) and other ingredients for that matter from anywhere in the world. As you say, the recall in the US was due to a 'filler' being purchased from China, and by the way, Nutro recalled products in the UK as well. Due to companies wishing to increase their profits they buy from the world markets if it is economical to do so. In that case there is also the question of preservatives. Ethoxyquin for example is now rarely added by the pet food manufacturers due to it's adverse properties, but it is or may be added by the distributor of the meal as a preservative. In this case the manufacturer a) doesn't know and b) doesn't have to include it on the list of ingredients, since THEY didn't add it in. They are only required to specify what they have added, so all in all it can be very misleading. Our manufacturers can be whiter than white, but still use ingredients with unknown contaminants from other places.
I did find the book interesting, and checked up on many of the sources (all listed by the way) given. I believe that there was an article about pet foods and cancer causing agents in Dogs Today this month, although I haven't seen it. I was surprised at the some of the apparently negative reactions to my post. I'm not a campaigner for any type of feeding, each to their own, but was curious as to whether this type of information had changed their ideas on feeding.
Kat

By the way, Margot, I wasn't suggesting that anyone should read the book, was just asking if anyone had, and asking their views. As I have just said above, each to his own, although the fact that we are not in the US doesn't mean that some of our pet food ingredients are not bought in from there and elsewhere in the world, and a huge number of the manufacturers are owned by US companies, many having been bought out several times over.
Kat

I tend to steer clear of theories propounded in the US as, from personal experience, I find them to be too "black and white" and like the country itself, fond of broad, sweeping statements.  

Personally, I prefer to do my own research, and go directly by my own and other people's PERSONAL experience, as related to me.   A well-trusted mentor of mine, in sociology, would always counter any statement with "where is your evidence" and I now take this as my mantra.   I rely on my own personal research and experience.    And having worked in the City for nearly 40 years, I am personally aware of Who owns What - and just how tight that rope is becoming - not only in the large companies, but more importantly in the commodities ;)

Margot

I agree Margot, I prefer my own research and make my judgements accordingly, to me, reading this becomes part of that research, as is asking others opinions on it, a debate if you will. Having read the book, the content is not theory, and is fully supported by FDA & USDA responses (albeit reluctant responses in some cases). In fact the evidence provided is very strong indeed with fully referenced material. I certainly don't accept information at face value. Personally I like to know what goes on and look at all sides, especially if it may affect me or mine in some way. There are things I come across which I don't believe and those that I do, having given them careful thought, and sometimes I come out somewhere in the middle. I have to know about them though to be able to consider them in the first place.
Kat

make sure you buy a product that has been manufactured in this country and not imported

Hmm good point JG, I buy my dog food from Zooplus as it is so much cheaper than here, but I had never thought about where the actual food comes from, just assumed it was the same as the stuff I can buy here but Zooplus is based in Germany - must go and check the manufacturers details on the pack now.

How does the term 'made in the EU' stand with reference to where ingrediants are sourced? Could this well be sources from places other than GB?

Could be anywhere in the EU, including the newly-joined Eastern European states, where animal welfare and hygiene standards aren't necessarily top rate. Minor ingredients could also be imported from even further afield.

My point exactly JG. To a large degree we are at the mercy of manufacturers who can buy from the worldmarkets. It is largely irrelevant who the manufacturer is, so choosing a UK manufacturer doesn't necessarily meaning choosing UK ingredients. All it really means is that the end product is 'combined' by the manufacturer and they only have to list the ingredients that comprise the food, and anything such as preservative that they add, not where they are obtained. This also applies to a variety of human foods which are processed. It can be a very tricky subject.
Kat

However the fresh meat that is processed to go into the food made in the UK has to be from carcasses passed as fit for human consumption, which seems not to be the case in many other countries, if certain websites are to be believed. But as they often have a hidden agenda the information might not be entirely accurate! ;)

I stick to brands like Naturediet and Burns personally. 

I think we need to be a bit circumspect in our trust of the larger companies - after all look at the recent news about alleged practices in a major human meat processing company!

Sorry!  By human meat I meant meat for human consumption!!!

Ahhhh not Cannibals R us then? :D :D

Wouldn't be canibalism to the dogs (only if it wqas dog meat) LOL

What was that then? Missed it.

"However the fresh meat that is processed to go into the food made in the UK has to be from carcasses passed as fit for human consumption,"

What about "derivatives" in some dog foods?  I didn't think that most of those would be considered fit for human consumption. Not saying it is spoiled or dangerous, just wondering what regulations apply to ensure they are not.

It is the animal that is passed fit for hman consuption, it doesn't mean the parts we would want to eat.

Cairn,

Statement from PFMA Pet food manufacturers Asos.
The Feeding stuffs regulations (England)2005
HTH :)

Thanks for the links, very helpful.

Well if anyone wanted to get the the bottom of that they would need a lifetime.
Here was an interesting one though:

no one shall use the following as an ingredient (in pet foods as it from the control feedstuffs secton):
(d) wood, sawdust or other materials derived from wood which has been treated with wood preservatives as defined in Annex V to Directive 98/8/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council concerning the placing of biocidal products on the market.

So it's OK to use sawdust (I believe a percentage of it appears as fibre) so long as it hasn't been treated with wood preservatives.
Oops my cynicism is showing
Kat

With these types of laws it's always good to have the ability to read between the lines ;) There are so many loopholes and a huge amount of leeway in either direction when it comes to pet foods.
Although Europe does seem to have higher standards than America et al,pet food is still pet food and the human food stuff industry need a dumping ground for their by-products,and the stuff they would normally throw away they can make money off by selling to the pet food manu's.

Obviously some pet owners have been lulled into a false sense of security and feel that feeding anything made in the EU is ok.But for me i will always check the ingredients and the sources from which it came from in anything i feed my pets no matter where it's made.
When England starts producing more carnivore targeted dry foods(instead of the complete opposite) then i may consider feeding pet foods made here,but until that happens i am forced to feed foods made in the US,also made from Human grade ingredients.

Just to be a bit naughty and add this to the argument... Fit for human consumption in this country often doesn't mean much... Allowing mashed up cows to be fed to sheep and then those mashed up and fed to the cows was where BSE came from and was standard farming practice despite that fact it is completely against nature. Prions... Can't even kill them by cooking because they're proteins not bacteria. Feeding other animals to herbivores was allowed in meat "fit for human consumption". There are lots of other dodgy practices allowed to go on in the food industry. Plus, just because it's "fit for human consumption" doesn't mean you would necessarily want to eat it. That's why I'm wary of sausages. Hotdog filled with eyelids and rectums anyone? *offers round a plate of frankfurters*

I would be a vegetarian because it's better for the environment (it'll shock you to know that cows produce nearly a third of the methane- a greenhouse gas- that is released into the environment. From their bottoms!) but meat is just too tasty. Mmmmm bacon. 

>Fit for human consumption in this country often doesn't mean much

It means that the animal hasn't recently been pumped full of ABs and growth hormone (a friend who's having to move to the US for a few years was horrified to discover that it's impossible to get baby formula milk that doesn't contain growth hormone!) etc, and wasn't sick at the time of slaughter. It's got nothing to do with what animals it's fed to, or what parts of the carcass it is - whether or not it's part of our culture to eat that part. Other cultures aren't so prissy and fussy as we are and don't waste it!

As for blaming cows for methane - erm, there have been herbivores on the planet for millions and millions of years producing methane - and if you were to go vegetarian then you'd be one of them too! :D

> but meat is just too tasty. Mmmmm bacon. 

Lol!  A person after my own heart :D

So it's OK to use sawdust (I believe a percentage of it appears as fibre)

Do you mean its possible to have sawdust in complete dog food in this country

Some of the diet recipes include cellulose, which could well be sawdust I suppose.

It means that the animal hasn't recently been pumped full of ABs and growth hormone (a friend who's having to move to the US for a few years was horrified to discover that it's impossible to get baby formula milk that doesn't contain growth hormone!) etc, and wasn't sick at the time of slaughter. It's got nothing to do with what animals it's fed to, or what parts of the carcass it is - whether or not it's part of our culture to eat that part. Other cultures aren't so prissy and fussy as we are and don't waste it! Also, hasn't recently been pumped full of ABs and growth hormone doesn't mean a continuous build up over time, and we all know that happens.
I think the point salukipup makes is that the animal which is a herbivore which is then fed meat which is then fed back to a herbivore is then eaten BY US (and our pets). I defy anyone to say that goes completely against nature and 'no good can come of it!' as it obviously didn't. It is an indication of the pursuit of profit at all costs that in order to make more and more money, less than ethical practices become acceptable and the norm. As salukipup says, BSE is caused by prions which are fairly indestructible, and there isn't only BSE there's TSE Transmissable Spongiform Encephalpathies, which affects a number is species. BSE is just one form of TSE. One in three cows slaughtered in the UK are NOW tested for BSE, none are tested for other TSE's.

Cellulose is a white, odorless, tasteless product prepared by processing alpha cellulose obtained as a pulp from fibrous plant material. Powdered cellulose is used as a bulking agent in pet food. Sawdust is often included at a ratio of up to 30% of the fibre content. It's basically the floor sweepings. Yes it is used in processed dry pet foods.

Hi Ktee, I was surprised you hadn't added to this thread

We will never know half of what goes on with our own food, let alone pet food. It's just a case of once you start looking it is quite an eye opener.
Kat

> We will never know half of what goes on with our own food, let alone pet food. It's just a case of once you start looking it is quite an eye opener.

Certainly is, and that's exactly why I'm steadily moving into a bare-bones approach to my and my dogs' food.  I won't feed them kibble any more - and the ready-made treats are on the way out too, and will be completely when I've managed to bake a successful batch of dog biscuits :p - because I feel there's very little way to know exactly what's gone into that food.  That, and the volume of uncecessary fillers (such as grains) that my dogs don't need.

The one thing that was the kicker, the thing that finally made me switch them onto raw, was the dilemma with additives - that manufacturers aren't required to declare additives that their suppliers put in the ingredients, if they are aware of them to start with.  Having seen a lot of hyped up, podgy dogs being fed terrible foods I have been somewhat put off kibble.

Personally I'm moving towards using only home prepared meals from raw ingredients, in a bid to get away from additives and preservatives in my own food - and I also buy free range meat (with the exception of lamb and beef, though I almost never buy the latter).  I'll only buy farmed seafood from decent sources, and that's only because often the species are overfished in the wild (I don't eat cod at all).  I also don't have issues with eating the less desirable parts of animals - though rectums and eyelids would perhaps have to be minced :D

Nikita
Exactly what I did, I had been steadily moving over, just a gut feeling really (pardon any pun:rolleyes:), but when I read this book it was a catalyst, and I just thought - kibble GONE FOREVER. The feeling that it gave me was fantastic, and I feel so happy KNOWING what they are eating (and so are they)

I also don't have issues with eating the less desirable parts of animals - though rectums and eyelids would perhaps have to be minced You or the dog? Yeuwwwww

BTW my dogs don't really care if my home made biscuits are successful - they love 'em anyway LOL
K