We have a choice of two secondary schools, one is one of the worst schools in the UK,a nd the other very little better, so what choice has one, you are fighting a loosing battle.  With bullying the victim becomes the problem not the bullies, and short  of the child having a bodyguard and being taken to and from school by the parent and never being allowed out of the House alone.

My children have refused to have me walk them to and from school once they were in th second year at senior school as they got taken the mickey out of, whereas being picked up by car wasn't seen as being babied.

Once in Secondary school you have no way of preventing them associating with bad kids, and with them being allowed out of school at Lunch time, what they do with their time outside school.

The rot starts gradually.  They take longer and longer to get home after school as they trail along with other kids on their way home.  They meet their friends before school and pop into the shops for sweets, they find their lateness barely noticed.  their Lunch hours get longer and longer, and it isn't sen as cool to stay in school for Lunch, even when like my son he had a free Lunch entitlement.

I think school size is one of the main problems, it is very much like people in Small villages all knowing each other and feeling able to leave their doors open, and the cities where no-one even knows their neighbour,a nd everyone is afraid of everyone else.

My children's Church Primary schools were already too big with 300, but it was just doable.  You need classes of 15 not 30.

> My children's Church Primary schools were already too big with 300, but it was just doable.  You need classes of 15 not 30.

I think that shows how badly things have deteriorated in a very short time.  I'm only 24, yet when I was working my way through secondary school the classes were 28-30 and there was no major problem.  Of course there were problem pupils - there always are.  But nothing on the scale of today.

I think a lot of it is to do with the teachers being unable to discipline; when I was halfway through secondary, there were two teachers to watch out for - a history teacher with quite a temper, though he rarely actually did anything; and a maths teacher who was in no way afraid to discipline using a board rubber aimed well, and on one occasion throwing a chair to the floor to scare the heck out of the pupils.  He rarely had any pupils out of line!  At the same time though, some of the best - and most respected teachers - hardly disciplined at all, they just had that way with the pupils.  It's a fine line I think.  I noticed that with the headteachers; just after I started secondary the long-serving head left.  He was kind, gentle and very well respected by everyone at that school.  He was replaced by a man who was a bit of a twonk, and didn't seem to know how to deal with pupils properly - the younger ones particularly - and as such never got that respect.  When I left after a-levels things were getting worse by the year.

Bullying seems to be tricky though - throughout my school years I had many, many attempts by people to bully me, but it never worked.  I've been raised to be respectful to others, especially older people, and also to believe in myself - of my own volition I've also developed a strong sense of not wanting to conform to how other people think I should be, bar a few little things (like shavings legs :D).  I saw how the "cool" people behaved to others, and decided I did not want to be that way.  But I can see how a lot of kids have trouble with wanting to fit in.

My brother has just retired from being a teacher(he's done his 39 years). He has never had a problem with discipline in any of his classes, he's never had to physically punish a child in that time, but(& it is a very big but)he has also been involved in Rugby League all the time he has been a teacher, from playing(& he was known as a "hard"player), to refereeing & now he's involved with the GB under 19 team on a professional basis. His reputation went before him, so when he started teaching he was working at the then worst school in Hull for achievement & discipline. He obviously had a reputation of a no nonsense teacher & he only had to look at a child using his stern look & they crumbled & they still do to day. He will carry out any disciplining & not issue empty threats.

The greatest punishment he can mete out to the young men who play in the GB/Yorkshire/Hull under 19 teams is that they will not play & therefore not have a chance at turning professional-one young bully/thug found this out to his cost. A brilliantly talented player, but whose temper was never under control & his parents always backed him. He was dropped from the Yorkshire team & the GB team for his behaviour & will never play professionally. He made the thugs in football seem like pussycats ! however unlike football Rugby League deals very very harshly with the "bad"boys. Football is a secondary sport in Hull of course

Because of his record he has the respect of his pupils & The Ofsted inspector actually approached him not to retire, but 39 years is enough.

Rugby Union has strong discipline too, which is often the first time the lads have come across it. Argue with the referee and you give away 10 yards (or metres). Assault the referee and it's an immediate lifetime ban. When boys have been reared watching football players surrounding the referee shouting at him and getting away with it, it does nothing to teach them to respect those in authority.

Oddly enough the Rugby Union I have seen(which is quite a lot)the players afterwards behaviour has shall I say been wanting, it certainly is at club level, whereas in RL being a game mainly played in the less affluent north has kept it's grip very tightly on behaviour before, after & during the matches. At the professional level it is almost even Stevens but I know of one hotel chain that will not have rugby union teams at any price, yet welcome rugby league, now RU has gone openly professional they seem to have continued with their poor behaviour & drinking habits after the game(most all RU clubs have a licenced club house-RL clubs don't-except the fully professional ones)

As for assaulting referees-unheard of in League at any level !

>But we can't be expected to take responsibility for others, only our own!

I disagree. We are all responsible ...we ALL need to start taking responsibility . If I hear a small child swear I generally ask them what it means ...9 times out of 10 they have no idea , it is just something they have heard. I try to explain that it isn't the sort of thing that is very nice to hear and that people will think less of them for using it. Whether they choose to heed my advice or not, I have tried and that is all we can do

>But we can't be expected to take responsibility for others, only our own!

It depends if you want to live as part of a community or to set yourself apart from society.

Then you'll not want other folks children paying for your pension and toward the countries tax bill in the future then? :)

I do think that its time that the idea of "National Service" can back into being.   Not military service - why should our armed forces be the people to train all our young?   No, I would propose that National Service was just that - serving the nation - in helping rebuild our nation - from the infrastructure to working with people.

In "my" national service, everybody between the ages of 18 and 30 - male and female, rich and poor, bright and dim, law-awbiding, those who think themselves above the law and those who feel themselves below the law, from supertax payers to benefit receiipients - would serve a total of two years - which could be carried out in 12-week blocks if there were family/educational ties (such as young unmarried mothers).   These people should be mixed - in the way that those who carried out National Service in the 1950s/early 60s were - so that each could get to know how other people lived .   I think I would also advocate that those who had already come up against the law should do their national service in a full two year block - and those under the age of 18 who were NIETS (not in education, or training) should also start early.   

The trouble is - we would first have to recruit those who would train these people - and I wouldn't advocate teachers or youth workers - I think I probably would prefer people like the teachers that we were terrified of - who could give you a tongue lashing that you would still remember 50 years later (;) ) or the sort of Sergeant Major that my brother had doing his National Service!

Margot

Margot I totally agree - but can you imagine it in reality?  People would be filing law suits everywhere for infringments on 'human rights' and 'stress related' problems!  You can't turn round now without someone trying to sue for something :rolleyes:  I hate it.

Debs

> Margot I totally agree - but can you imagine it in reality?  People would be filing law suits everywhere for infringments on 'human rights' and 'stress related' problems!  You can't turn round now without someone trying to sue for something   I hate it.

That should be one of the first steps I think - addressing the compensation culture and the rediculous human rights b*llsh*t.  I don't normally use words that strong on forums, but it's one thing that really irritates me - today or yesterday in the daily mail, there was Steven Lawrence's killer being allowed to stay because of that stupid piece of legislation.  Disgusting.

The dreadful Human Rights Act simply must go. It gives criminals 'rights' whilst simultaneously removing those of their victims. It's grossly unfair.

> I think I probably would prefer people like the teachers that we were terrified of

LOL, Margot :D Sounds like one of my OH's teachers in his 1950/60s East End secondary modern (not the sort of circle that Carla mixes with ;) ) - he had been an army physical training instructor and if someone made him angry he would pick up a desk and throw it at them :D :D :D

Daisy

What are you going on about? I was simply saying that the people I am friends with certainly cannot afford the luxuries that you say "a lot" of people want these days - and we are all reasonable earners but every penny is taken up paying mortgages and looking after children. I don't know one child with the latest Playstation.

> I don't know one child with the latest Playstation

Not sure where you live then, as where I live (ex New Town with, still, a high percentage of council houses), a lot of the children (or their fathers) seem to have the latest Play Stations or WEE whatever it is, the current years football kit and have been to Florida at least once :) My daughter got her first IPOD for her 21st birthday present from us - my colleague's son got his third for his 12th birthday. I suppose it depends what people call luxuries - my daughter never got her pony :D :D :D

Daisy

A flash pony on a livery yard with a horsebox and rich parents might be a luxury - a 21 year old pony that my daughter has to earn pocket money in order to keep is a very different story. We go without holidays and new cars in order to keep the horses - most of which are rescues. Hardly a life of luxury.

Then you'll not want other folks children paying for your pension and toward the countries tax bill in the future then?

If this is a reply to my post, Carla, your comment is entirely irrelevant.  We're talking about the behaviour of out-of-control children, not children per se.

No Lois, Carla's point is not irrelevant - we are talking about taking responsibility for the upbringing of ALL children .........

If the law-abiding amongst us do not take responsibility there will be no society ....

Margot

If we don't ensure that ALL children are raised with ambition and a work ethic and a desire to improve and take responsibility for their own futures - there will be no future for any of us. Thats why its relevant.

>We can't just say its not our responsibility.<

>Well I can - and I am<

But thats what makes us a society the aggregate of people living together in a more or less ordered community.
:rolleyes:

Absolutely. Society is everybody. Children learn by example - so we all must set the example we want them to follow. If we don't want them to swear we all must make sure they don't hear us swearing. If we don't want them to drop litter we all must make sure that litter isn't dropped, and if it is, it gets picked up. Not just the parents among us - everybody. It's no good leaving everything to others - that's just a cop-out. We get the society we deserve, and we've brought this one on ourselves by being too soft and child-centred. Huge numbers are genuinely 'spoiled' - not indulged (though they are that as well) but damaged.

So, what do we do about it? Lobby our mp's? vote out the present government? fat chance... protest? what will it take to make the powers that be sit up and reclaim this country from the yobs?

Lobbying MPs - certainly. Voting at every election (there's one at least every 5 years!) - definitely. Write to the papers - local and national. It might not work, but at least we'll have tried. Even picking up litter when we see it, rather than leaving it for 'them' to deal with. After all, none of us is too grand to do simple things like that to improve our immediate environment. If we simply sit back and do nothing, then it'll be assumed we're perfectly happy with the way things are.

Society is everybody. Children learn by example - so we all must set the example we want them to follow. If we don't want them to swear we all must make sure they don't hear us swearing. If we don't want them to drop litter we all must make sure that litter isn't dropped

If this is what is meant by sharing the responsibility then I'm glad to say I've been doing my bit for decades :-D. Thanks, J/G - this is much more my style than wading in to sort out a bunch of hooligans :)

>If this is what is meant by sharing the responsibility then I'm glad to say I've been doing my bit for decades

Good! Another person who calls out after teenagers who've dropped litter "Excuse me, you dropped something!" Quite a few flush embarrassedly and pick it up! :D I'm glad you do it too! :)

I'm really sqeamish when it comes to picking up other peoples litter   I just cannot bring myself to do it, but my OH always does and I tell him not to touch it as he hasn't a clue what's in there   but he ignores me anyway - takes all sorts I guess.

When I see people dropping litter or that other foul habit 'spitting' it makes me so cross, in fact I do think spitting is worse than dropping litter  

I wonder if it's not some peoples' desparate desire to become 'American' in attitude and culture.  Please don't take this as an attack on Americans - it's not - it's just that the majority of kids/teenagers' TV programs are American, most of the computer/playstation/xbox games are American, youngsters seem to aspire to American culture (heaven only knows why!?) and it glorifies the American ghetto/gang wars world.  I'm so proud that this country doesn't have a gun culture (ar at least DIDN'T have :( ).  It just seems we're going more and more down the route of truly becoming the 51st state.  You can't watch tv without compensation ads popping up every 15 minutes - this letigious way of thinking also seems to be an American spin off.  Everything around us seems to be following the way of America.  I'd love for British people to stay British, personally.

Debs

I wonder if it's not some peoples' desparate desire to become 'American' in attitude and culture.

Your almost there :-)   I have to admit that probably 80% of all programmes myself and my family watch are American our tv is flooded with American influences, music is the other influence and teenagers aspire to negative and rebellious behaviour, it is what teenagers are good at.:rolleyes:

I've heard many of my boys friends this year saying Yo Dude and touching fists together and calling each other gangster???? It has only started this year I asked them why they were talking like ghetto Americans, I laughed at them and said your English talk English and everytime any of them drop into American slang I correct them, I don't care if it gets on their nerves, rebellious and bad is cool to teenagers if they are not pulled up quickly. No-one talks slang in my home and games etc are confiscated which encourage swearing and bad behaviour as most teenagers can't help but be influenced.

Our children have more things to influence them today, music and TV being the worst, and yes, I actually believe that they do copy behaviours from programmes, no doubt about that, but at the end of the day it us up to parents to make our kids behave no matter what influences they have.

I had very strict parents and come from a working class background.  I was never quite so strict with my daughters, but I did my best to teach them to respect themselves and others.  This was helped by an extremely good school they were privileged to attend.  I know lots of people don't get this opportunity but whether rich or poor manners and respect don't cost a jot.

Just watching the end of the Anne Widdecombe, programme with all the scroungers last night makes my blood boil.

It's people like that awful uncouth guy who should not be allowed to have children and he has 14.  We go on and on about how dogs should be bred with good temperament and health, why not prevent low lifes like this guy and his wives from having children.  Because as sure as eggs are eggs their offsprings will be the same and so it goes on...............  

The kids have no fear whatso ever, thats the main problem.
They even chuck rocks etc at POLICE cars, who in the world would have done that when they were young? Certainly not me and I was no angel when i was younger, I had respect.
I blame the parents mostly as why are they letting theyre 10 year old children out at all hours playing with much older lads then them? I know its not all parents but still, wheres the discipline and order to these kids lives?

With all the crime and gangs around I dont see things getting better before they get much much worse.

They even chuck rocks etc at POLICE cars, who in the world would have done that when they were young?

Their parents did! Back in the 80's the local yobs here would do that, and going back even furthur, to the war years when the army camp was local, a group of them even rolled the police car from the police station down the hill into town! As in, rolled it over
But I do understand what you mean. It was unusual then, but happens so often now. :( Its not just the behaviour of kids today, it started before then, back in their parents day. I shudder to think if unchecked, what will happen in the next generation and the one after.

I agree Maria, there are third generation unemployed in some areas near us. People get things too easily nowadays, i was shocked last night at the two girls from Liverpool getting £350 per week as apprentice painters, good grief when I was an apprentice we got £35 a week and thought we were well paid, I know fully trained tradesmen who don't take home much more than that. They didn't want to work in a factory cause that was beneath them, but they didn't have a qualification between them, and no intention of getting any.

At schools the children who get all the attention are the badly behaved yobs whose parents don't give a d*mn about them while the ones who work hard and behave are ignored. We have just enrolled our new students and I know I will spend the next few weeks telling them off for swearing, playing with mobile phones and being rude, and they are not all young either, there are a few twenty and thirty plus year olds that need to take a good look at their behaviour too.

If a child lives with criticism
he learns to condemn.

If a child lives with hostility
she learns to fight.

If a child lives with ridicule
he learns to be shy.

If a child lives with shame
she learns to feel guilty.

If a child lives with tolerance
he learns to be patient.

If a child lives with encouragement
she learns confidence.

If a child lives with praise
he learns to appreciate.

If a child lives with fairness
she learns justice.

If a child lives with security
he learns to have faith.

If a child lives with approval
she learns to like herself.

If a child lives with acceptance and friendship
he learns to find love in the world.

That is brilliant Harley. :-)

I don't know who wrote it but it is something I have always tried to remember with my own children. I also have it hung on the wall in my room at school :)

Never a truer word has been said and it all those things that mould the child into the adult and so it carries on, on and on down the generations.  Child upbringing is everyone's responsibility.  We need to lead by example.

Harley that is fantastic and what having children is all about and how we should treat them  :)

If a child lives with criticism
he learns to condemn.

That poster was displayed at my sons junior school, and its such wonderful sentiments.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6960431.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4991526.stm

Just thought I would add these two articles to this discussion ;)

I think this all is around the way the media have had a direct impact on bringing these sort of crimes to to the everyones radar by newspapers, television ( How many 24hr news channels have we now ) and the internet :)
Yes there has been a big rise in the last ten years and that is plain to see but it is not an epidemic that is out of control :)

I do think that respect has gone in alot of cases but the school Flo goes to has a zero tolerance on bullying, has an infrastructure in place jointly owned by the teachers and pupils to tackle this and many other issues about how the school is run. It works very well and the incidents of trouble are very small and all the teachers are respected and in most cases the pupils are respected, if the agreed level of behaviour is met . The pupils, teachers and parents sign a School Record Book at the beginning of the year which details the rules and expectations and says we all have a responsibilty towards making our childrens education the best it possibly can be :)

It is shame alot of other schools do not seem to be able to follows examples like this. I suppose though where we live has a lot to do with it and inner city schools have many different challenges.

Last year I stopped a violent attack on a young man in a viilage a few miles away. It was being watched by so many people but I was the only one to act :rolleyes: So may say brave other have said stupid ( including Mike ) but I acted on pure instinct and yes afterwards I could see the danger I could have put myself in but I would do it again if it meant saving a life which I did. the man had serious injuries and the Police said if I hadn't intervened the man could well have been fatally injured.

Anyway that is my contribution :D

Lucy
xx

Hmm this is a very interesting discussion which covers lots of valid points :) I dont really have much to add but you've all given a naive 23 year old a lot to think about!!

And I think a bit of healthy career ambition is good in today's age because there arent that many people who actually want to get off their butts and work. :)

I have two chldren by two different dads and I am not married to either but I work and pay all my own bills, I rent a house until I have enough money saved for my deposit for a house(2yrs hpefully). I could easily sit on my backside and claim all sort like majority of single mums around here do but wont they are my children and I am responsible for them.
I expect my children to respect themselves and others and expect other children who come to my house to behave the same. Last week Matthew invited a friend round, while we were in the  living room this kids hit Piper because she licked him horrible child when I  told him off he said thats how we teach our dogs and proceeded to tell me that he would hit her again if she came near him. Needless to say rotten child was put in the car and taken home where when I explained to his mum why she couldnt see a problem.
She is in the same position as me two kids two dads but our values are different, Its my responsibility to know where my children are and who they are playing with she couldnt care less as long as they are out of her hair. Parents need to take more responsilibity for their kids. Matthew has lots of energy and if it isnt used for positive ways he will get up to mischief so he plays lots of sport. They arent perfect by any stretch of the imagination by have manners and show respect for other people so we are heading in the right direction.
Mary

I think we need more instances like the one here :-

http://archive.echo-news.co.uk/2007/8/3/255667.html

Margot

Its my responsibility to know where my children are and who they are playing with she couldnt care less as long as they are out of her hair. Parents need to take more responsilibity for their kids.

excellent post, and i totally agree with these sentiments. It is up to us as parents to know where our children are, who they are with, and take action if they misbehave. If all children, up to teens, were treated in this caring way they would have the respect they had learned as young toddlers and we would all be better off for it. Children/teens cannot be expected to know how to behave unless they are taught from a very young age, taught manners, respect, and how to behave. This is by the parents being with them, guiding them, not simply by just letting them out on the streets or wherever to fend for themselves. There comes a time when they are let out without us, the place/distance grows as they become more trustworthy and what they have learnt comes into play. Parents do need to take responsibility for their children, sadly very often those that do can come unstuck when our children make friends with those from families that don't care. But thats another story.

My children were never allowed out on their own, and I walked them to and from school right into the first year at Secondary school, yet after they start walking to school on their own and going out at lunch time you cannot control who they are with.

Things were fine with my daughter until 13, when we had more an more arguments about her not having enough freedom like her friends did, and she just rebelled.

With son things were pretty much the same until he was 15, except he always had difficulties in school.  couldn't deal with change and was always worst when they had supply teachers, which was happening more and more.

Daughter now worries about my son same as I did about her, a lot of the pot calling kettle black, almost as if she has forgotten how awful she was a few short years ago.

Girls at my school (and the boys at Conors school) are not allowed out at lunchtime without parental consent ...maybe you could put this forward to the head as a possibility?

Have done but the schools lies right between two major roads one being the high street, and the site has too many entrances to watch. 

Many kids don't stay in school for lunch, supposedly for home dinners, that they aren't prepared to ensure the rest stay on site.  It is much easier with schools that are not anywhere close to where the kids may want to go.

I say put tags on them, or use and invisible fence and put collars on them all so they get a jolt if they try to leave the premises.

Most of my daughters truanting occurred with her on the school premises, she just didn't go into lessons.

Again both these problems would not easily occur if schools were small enough for staff to know the pupils and who should be where.

Too late now as son has finished school, just hope he makes an effort at college.

GCSE results are what I expected, poor and he could have got A's according to his teachers and predictions, he ended up with 2 C's and 3 D's and some lower grades and ungraded for his English as he tore up his paper and stormed out of one exam as his friend had been asked to leave

Not letting children out by themselves can be counter-productive tho' :) They need to learn to be independent and being escorted to school (depending on the circumstances) could lead to bullying :) My daughter quite happily travelled on the bus(es) from school 8 miles away from aged 11. A lot of her friends went by train to school in Cambridge (25 miles away). What I never allowed mine to do was to just hang around on the street. If they went out, it had to be a pre-arranged thing - either going to a friend's house or shopping/cinema etc. I always knew where they were/who they were with and what time they would be home. Any breaking of the rules and they were grounded :)

Daisy

Yes that is why I stopped walking them after the first year at Secondary school with my older one, as she complained of being made fun of.  She walked her brother to school the first year he went up (they are 3 1/2 years and 3 school years apart in age).

Yes mien obviously could go to tea at friends houses.  This all worked quite well in primary school, as due to taking them to and from school you got to know the other parents, the teachers, and the other children.

In secondary school I was hard put to know who my children's teachers were (doesn't help having poor sight and poor recall for names).

Even the Children's Society thinks children should be allowed out independently and that many parents are over-protective, which does their children a disservice. Children in captivity.

Only Year 11's are allowed out during lunchtimes at Mollie's school. Anyone else has to have a pass to get through the gates - where a teacher is posted on guard :)

That gives the younger children a responsibility to aspire to IMO.