Another child - Rhys Jones - has been shot - apparently by another youngster - possibly in a "gang" type attack.   This lad was only 11 years old - and stayed away from local teenage gangs - because he was scared of them.

I have to admit that once upon a time, if I saw a group of youths doing something wrong, I would quite confidently go up to them, find out what the hell they thought they were doing, and what they thought the consequences of their actions might be.   But I wouldn't now.  I would be scared to confront them.    Now I'm not saying that I am scared of going out/passings youngsters - but I don't live in an area where there are groups of youngsters congregating.

If responsible parents are too scared to let their children out to play, if school uniform manufacturers are now making options with kevlar (stab-proof) linings - where is it going to end?   We all bang on about responsible dog ownership, about training dogs properly - when the hell are the silent majority going to start actually DOING something about the feral generation that has been spawned?

Margot

Children have been so elevated above their natural status. The laws have been changed so much that discipline is forbidden. :rolleyes: Adults are limited to giving a ticking-off, which is naturally ignored or laughed at, and the adult threatened for daring to even do that. Unless children are disciplined by others until they're old enough to exercise self-discipline then things will only get worse.

Children have been so elevated above their natural status.  The laws have been changed so much that discipline is forbidden.  Adults are limited to giving a ticking-off, which is naturally ignored or laughed at, and the adult threatened for daring to even do that. Unless children are disciplined by others until they're old enough to exercise self-discipline then things will only get worse.


Wow!  Very well said, that is exactly what is happening, didn't take rocket science to work it out, but those in power who run our lives don't get it do they?

Children need to go back to being children with their piers in charge of guidance, rules and discipline.  Child abuse and the way to help those poor souls has got in the way of good parenting, teachers and the police, we need childline, we need good social care, but we need good natural parenting more than anything else.

We can thank the 'do-gooders brigade' for a lot of the problems we have nowadays :( When I was young (oh, here we go.......... ;) ) we behaved because we knew that the local bobby would give us a clout round the ear before taking us home where we'd get another for shaming the family by having the bobby bring us home Then we'd get into a whole load more trouble for the reason the bobby brought us home :) Nowadays we daren't look at the teenagers (and younger) for fear that they might do something. So many kids are dragged up nowadays, instead of being taught manners. I suppose that's one of the reasons I'm so glad I live in the country. ;)

Goodness knows, Margot :( I despair sometimes :( It just has to start again with the family. I remember some years ago watching Judge Judy (LOL :D) - she was admonishing a young man for some misdemeanour. He had a girlfriend and a baby, but wasn't married She asked him why they weren't married and he replied that that was a big responsibility - to get married :( She was so annoyed that he obviously hadn't thought having a baby to be a responsibilty :( :( :( When will men and women think before creating a baby and realise what a lifetime responsibilty they are taking on. When will they dedicate as much time and effort to their own relationships to ensure that that baby is brought up in as loving, caring and happy a family as they can manage. Of course, not all relationships will stand the test of time and not all parents who split up neglect their responsibilities to their children - but so many rush into these really big decisions without a care and we are now seeing the product of years of irresponsible human behaviour :( :(

Daisy

when the hell are the silent majority going to start actually DOING something about the feral generation that has been spawned?

Not quite sure who you mean by 'the silent majority' but, in my view, the parents of the 'ferals' are the ones who must bear the brunt of the responsibility.

I agree, but don't you also think that we all are responsible to various degrees in our acceptance in the falling standards of child rearing ?? How many parents buy their children TVs, DVD players, playstations etc etc etc and leave their children to amuse themselves when the parent could be giving their time. Or accepting a lowering in the respect shown to ourselves, family, friends etc etc Putting our material desires (houses, holidays etc) and the means of paying for them before giving time for our children. So many ways that we are all contributing to the lowering of standards around us :( Others want to copy, but don't have the means to do it and so turn to crime etc etc

Daisy

A house isn't a material desire - its a necessity. There is nothing wrong with ambition or a desire to have nice things - providing nothing else suffers as a result of that desire.

Television has a lot to answer for - there are things on television and in magazines that would NEVER have been shown a few years ago. The moral standards of this country are lower than a snakes backside in a wagon rut and I don't like it one little bit!

I'm not talking about basic needs. I'm talking about the insatiable desire from lots of people to keep buying - in a house for a few years, then move onto the next. New car and then change it a year or two later. Take the children to Florida. Buy them the latest Playstation. Have the latest clothes. Eat out several times a week etc etc etc When I was a child it was very unusual for any of my friends to move house. Once people had a home that was big enough (just about - with a bit of a squeeze) that was it. People didn't have the very high aspirations that they do today. BUT that enabled mothers to stay at home, so they knew where their children were and maybe helped preserve marriages becuase there wasn't the continual drive to 'upgrade' everything. Most people were content to just have a roof over their heads, food on the table and if they were lucky a small holiday once a year to the seaside in a caravan or a B&B. Now all children seem to know is how to want the latest of everything :( :( :(

Daisy

You move in different circles to me then Daisy - I don't know anyone who can afford to do all that. Everyone I know is scratching it together to meet their mortgage payments every month - and that means both parents have to work.

> You move in different circles to me then Daisy

LOL :)

Daisy

And can I just say that I don't think the children of the parents you are discussing are the ones going around waving guns and killing folk - I think their children are more likely to be the victims.

> And can I just say that I don't think the children of the parents you are discussing are the ones going around waving guns and killing folk

I didn't say they were - merely that today's have it all NOW society is contributing to the problems with the disadvantaged families where the problems, mostly, are :(

Daisy

There have always been people who had and those who had not, in fact I think in the past there was far more real poverty(not having food on the table, women having to give their children up etc), what is different is that those in the poorer sections of society are more discontented when they don't have, so they resort to criminal means of having the lifestyle they see portrayed.

People in the past didn't expect holidays abroad etc.  I never had pocket money as a child right until I left school.  My parents bought us clothes at jumble sales, and having hand me down clothes from older relatives was the norm.  You might get something new for Christmas and birthdays, and of course new shoes.

My Dad worked, and Mum stayed at home and there were five of us. When the youngest went to school and I was 17 my Mum upped and left home, and things realy were a struggle, but we didn't consider ourselves disadvantaged.

Although I agree with your post Daisy, in that our children are 'spoilt' that living is soooo.... different to when we were children and more is expected and wanted, I also agree that it is having an effect and personally although I like this life too, I don't think it is good for our humanity but, I don't think this is the cause of what is happening in some neighbourhoods and streets.

There have always been class differences, always will be, same with poor and rich countries and ways of life, there will always be that divide, but some of our streets are becoming more like ghetto America, street crime, drugs, guns, knives, gangs, this is where we are heading.

Parents, discipline and the police need more authority over our young, human rights has gone ga ga and youngsters literally get away with murder.

My other worry for cities and towns with more and more imigrants and especially illegals coming in from a different way of life is the gang culture they also bring and their way of earning illegal money it is all going to spread, we will end up like parts of America.

Our laws to protect all of the human race and equality for all, is still a good thing, but there needs to be common sense too things need to start to bend to allow the criminal to be punished properly and to keep our way of life safe.

Our young are our future, and they need the correct role models or God help us all.

Totally agree about the inability to allow criminals to be punished properly. With respect to class difference etc, we are experiencing now much the same as things were in Victorian times - street crime etc :( Progress ???? :(

Daisy

My son is now 16 and running aroudn off the rails.  Parents get little back up trying to discipline their teens.  ~They know you can't so anything.  There are so many negative influneces workign agains what you as a parent are trying to instil in them.  when you aqhve kids that seek excitemetn and are easily led it is hard to know what to do other than stand firm with disapproval, and confirm your love them but not their behaviour, and pray the values you try s hard to instil resurface.

My daughter was a nightmare truating and runn9ng wild between 13 and 16.  At 16 she wernt to w2ork, and is now a sensible 20 year old.

And its people like you, Barbara, that ought to be getting support - you have tried and tried, I know, to keep things on an even keel.  It's not easy today, bringing up a family, and you ought to be able to know that people outside will back you up - hang on in there - you know your daughter has turned round, and hopefully, your son will too.  

(I do know of one parent, who not only took her son's shoes away when he came home from school - she also took all his trousers, jeans and pants! - that way he would not go out of the house!   She would take them in her car around to a different friend's every day.  But then, her son reported her actions to Social Services, who came and saw her, and told her that if she continued in her actions, he would be taken into care.    She responded that if she let him have his trousers/jeans back, he would be put into a young offenders' unit within 6 months.)    He grew up !

Margot

I took my daughters shoes and she went barefoot to her friends house and reported me to social Services for slapping her face.  She had pinched a packet of cigarettes from a neighbours house, as you can imagine I was lucky to preserve the freindship, and for several yers ehr husband refised to ahve her in his house, now she is there regularly.

1. Punish parents for badly behaved children
2. Bring back National Service
3. Spend more money on the police force and employ groups of police with riot vans to go and split up these gangs, siezing children who are badly behaved and taking them to the local army camp for a dose of discipline, then charging their parents for not being responsible.
4. Stop wasting money on a war that has nothing to do with us and put our own house in order
5. Hold a gun amnesty and introduce SEVERE punishments for anyone found with a gun after this

I am desperately worried about my children growing up and getting involved in something like this. This country is going down the pan and there is not a THING being done to stop it

That's what worries me Carla - not for myself, but my family.  My nephew has just turned 1, and my sister has just told me she's 7 weeks' gone - and intends to move back to the UK in 2 years' time (she's in Finland now).  I'm of course overjoyed and can't wait to have her closer by again, but I am seriously disturbed about the sort of society both Luke and the new baby will be growing up in.

Yes - the parents of the feral children do have that responsibility - but I firmly believe that the african saying that "it takes a village to bring up a child" is correct.   As someone else said, when we grew up, we were only too aware that if the school complained about our behaviour we "would be given something to complain about"  by our parents.   Not corporal punishment - but witheld priviledges etc.

We can't just say its not our responsibility.  Someone has to teach the parents, if not the children what is right & what is wrong.

Margot

There is no value put on marriage
Relationships are flimsy
Children are not only born out of wedlock, but by various different fathers

and its all sensationalised and publicised on junk like Trisha and Jeremy Kyle

(if we got rid of 300 channels on sky they might stop making junk to fill them)

We can't just say its not our responsibility.

Well I can - and I am  :)  Other people's children are NOT my responsibility - they chose to have them so it's their duty to bring them up properly.

Well heaven help us all - if we take your attitude - then we get the country we deserve :(

Its people who say "its the governments'/teachers/social workers/parents to blame" without thinking that by accepting this behaviour just as much as we accept dirty streets that have meant that we have degenerated into this sort of society.   And unless you live in an ivory castle, and never use public transport/walk through our cities/villages/towns then I do not see how you can just let it pass you by.

"Someone ought to do something" just isn't enough

And don't start whinging if you (and yours) are victims ! 

Margot

OK Margot - give me one practical example of how I should take responsiblity for all these badly behaved children.
You yourself said I have to admit that once upon a time, if I saw a group of youths doing something wrong, I would quite confidently go up to them, find out what the hell they thought they were doing, and what they thought the consequences of their actions might be.   But I wouldn't now.  I would be scared to confront them.
So if you won't do anything, why should I ? :)

Bit of a difference between 'wont' and 'cant' ;)

I would though - if I thought that someone might stick up for me.   It would just be my luck to confront a group of youths and have YOU walking behind me - crossing over the street so as to not get involved!

Margot

There is so much more to addressing anti social behaviour though Louis than just confronting kids on streets, thats just one of the rings of the ripple effect to my mind.

I would still like to know exactly how I'm expected to show responsibility for children who are absolutely nothing to do with me. We all know what can happen when you challenge the yobs - even the police don't recommend you get involved these days.
I'm sorry but I'm not prepared to put my life at risk just to prove that other people's children are my responsibilty. 

I would still like to know exactly how I'm expected to show responsibility for children who are absolutely nothing to do with me

the answer to that is quite simple, you can't, we can only be responsible for ourselves and our families, if we try to stick our noses into anything that isnt as close as that, we would probably end up in jail :rolleyes:

This is why we have to 'go back to basics' with young children.  My daughter has a 2 and half year old extremely well mannered little boy, he has never heard his parents swearing so he doesn't, he sees his parents behaving respecfully to others, and  so he does :) children learn by example and I have to say again it is not the teachers or schools, it is down to parents.

It's a great pity we don't have somewhere to deport all the yobs, scroungers and vandals to :D

Then they start school, and they hear other kids swearing.  they go to senior school, the schools are huge so individuals are lost and having to watch your things or they will be broken or stolen starts, then the peer group pressure, why be a 'keener', lets not go back into school after lunch break etc etc.

By the time you are informed your kid is truanting it is the end of the next quarter, but then they have learnt that hardly anyone even notices,a nd the sanctions if any are more time off school.

My son complained he was being bullied, I informed the school, bullying got worse.  Bullying stopped when he started acting like the bullies, what did that teach him, the way to not get bullied is to have a smart mouth and be disrespectful to authority.

When I remonstarated with him he told me that he has no respect for them as they don't help those who are hav9ing a hard time fitting in

They won't hear other children (kids are baby goats! ;) I prefer that children should feel like humans, not animals ;)) swearing if fewer other parents have allowed their children to swear, and have taught that swearing is as wrong as peeing on the floor or kicking a puppy.

I agree entirely about the disaster over over-sized schools - if a teacher doesn't know the name of every child in the school, not just the ones they teach, then the school is too big. We need more, smaller schools so that each child is a known individual, and thus feels worthy. A school small enough where, if a child truants, the parent knows by lunchtime.

JG - in an ideal world...

In reality, swearing is the least of the problem. Children hit teachers, walk out of school, swear, smoke, drink. The teachers have no power - they want to expel them but they are not allowed and the children know it. Parents don't care. Mollie is in a school of 1000 children. She is 12 and she is rubbing shoulders with 16 year old adults. Bring back the middle schools I say - its all too impressionable, pressurised and forces children to grow up too quickly.

Teachers are powerless against these children.

>Teachers are powerless against these children.

That's the nub of the problem. Power has devolved from the adults to the children - the lunatics are running the asylum. Things won't improve until the teachers are given back the power to actively discipline - even if it means a return to the days of the cane - the unruly children who make life a misery for the well-behaved ones who want to learn.

Mollie's school has quite a good disciplinary procedure - but it only works if the children care what their parents think. They have a series of warnings, conduct logs, detentions, reports that escalate through the process and the parents get involved. But if the parents don't care the punishments mean nothing. So you get a divide - the good children who fear the punishments and stay good, and the bad children who don't care and stay bad. They don't seem to have the resource or the power to turn the bad ones round - and they can't expel them so the good ones have to put up with it.

With so many children being concerned more with what the other children think than what their parents do, actually being a baddie gets them kudos.  so if your child is border line like my son, then the pressure from this negative group and affirmation her got from them for being disruptive had more power over him than my disapproval.

I have tried getting help for him, but he won't accept he has a problem, after all so many others behave as he does.

With so many children being concerned more with what the other children think than what their parents do, actually being a baddie gets them kudos.  so if your child is border line like my son, then the pressure from this negative group and affirmation her got from them for being disruptive had more power over him than my disapproval.

This is all so very true. I would add, that if the child does not conform to being a 'baddie' they stand the risk of being bullied, be that physical or psycological (sp)

"This is all so very true. I would add, that if the child does not conform to being a 'baddie' they stand the risk of being bullied, be that physical or psycological (sp) "

this is exactly the category my son falls into.  He was a square peg in a roudn hole type of person and got bullied and picked on, so he found by being off the wall and arrogant and I don't care got him respect from the bullies.

It is all a big front as he is a sensitive soul really, but it worries me where it coudl lead before eh grows up enough to accept being different or going into the world where same age peers no longer apply so much.

In cases like that I'd seriously weigh up whether relocating was a viable option, to give him a better chance.

In cases like that I'd seriously weigh up whether relocating was a viable option, to give him a better chance.

Gosh JG, thats a bit of a huge financial and physical upheaval................I can see where you are coming from, but its not easy to just up sticks, and with things as they are in this day and age, where do you move to? I am near a country market town in a rural area, I think I'm right in saying brainless is more town, yes?....yet she and I are on the exact same line of thought knowing what goes on in schools, and how kids are treated and how they interact today. Obviously, from what some posters have said, there is a difference between areas, but I bet those good schools are so full they have waiting lists. Even those that live in the catchment area may have difficulty getting their kids in there. This leaves out of catchment area schools, and sometimes if they have a lot of spaces they are not the best? Aso, moving at that age can make him the new kid on the block, and its not always easy to fit in and still concentrate on the work for exams. Its such a difficult situation for any parent to be in. Personally, I will be glad when my eldest finishes school, and goes onto furthur education, at least the kids that carry on actually want to be there, which I think makes a bit of a difference to life for them.

I think being a parent is like those huge weighing scales you see, and just when you think you have them balanced, something just tips it....Love, support, a sanctury within your home, and constantly talking with your kids and keeping them respecting you is sometimes all you can do.

>thats a bit of a huge financial and physical upheaval

Desperate times call for desperate measures.

I know a lot about moving and changing schools, and being the 'outsider'. My father was in the forces and we were posted about every 2 years for my whole childhood - once we got lucky and stayed put for four whole years! Relocation isn't the worst that can happen to child.

A lot depends on the reason for the bullying, of course. Some children will always be bullied, irrespective of the school/area - so moving to a school that copes well with bullying would be a great advantage. For some lucky children, moving will be enough to remove the problem. No point moving just to find it all starts again tho' :(

Daisy

Desperate times call for desperate measures.

Like I say JG, I can see your point, i moved one of mine due to total lack of school support re bullying, and it was certainly the best thing I did. We didnt have to move, but we do have a longish car journey every day, but worth it. If you have to move house though, and maybe job, how do you cope? not only is there all the moving/selling/reloacting problems, finding work is not easy either. For many the financial side of things would make it near to impossible. And it could all be to avail if the place you move to still has the same problems, something you wouldnt really know till you got there. Just me looking at all sides :) I don't live in a 'crew' motivated area, maybe if I did I would think differently, I have always wanted the quiet of rural life, so never ventured near a big town/city to find out. If I had to move house, I don't know how I would afford it.

I have known a couple of people that were forces children, and one thing they really hated was all the moving, they would just get settled, then be off again, and they hated it, so much so that they said, and followed through, that they would never inflict it on their kids. My ex forces hubby says much the same, the families hated having to move their kids so often. I guess not all are the same, some maybe even enjoy it :)

>I guess not all are the same, some maybe even enjoy it

I did. :) I was always sad to leave the people I liked, but soon learned that there were equally nice, but different, people in the next place. It also made going away to college (I guess it'd be called 'university' now! but it wasn't then) much easier. I was so sorry for the students who dropped out simply because they couldn't cope with the change.

Complete impossibility in my case.

All situations are different. :) Sometimes after due consideration it's not possible, but for some it can be the best answer.

If things ahd been different and it wasn't for my disability (not being able to drive) I woudl ahve moved to a small town years ago.

that is the problem when others do not have the same values and standards as you and if the child is not of a strong enough character to resist the peer group pressure you are left wringing yoru hands.

Because of my disability I went to a special school.  there were ony 100 pupils from 4 to 16, two year age group classes up to 3rd year with only 10 or 14 to a class.

If soemone had soemthing go missign a whole school assembly would be held and the item returned.

The expereince was like being part of a family.  Te teachers were dedicated and able to get the best out of every single student using their strengths and minimising their weaknesses.

When I wnet into a large state church school for the 6th form and A levels I was horrified at the attitude of both techers an students to each other.

My own childrens school expereince has been horrible, and sadly they became horrible too during secondary school.  I beleive it is mainly because they do not funciton well as part of aherd, having always been individuals at home, and when they didn't fit in they found with the lip service recieved abotu bullying that you joined in iwth the majority or bacme a victim.  For my daughter so far the adult world has allowed her to be herself again without ahving to be a toughie.  I just hope that college will help strighten out my sons attitudes adn behaviour, if it doesn't then the World of Work is where I will insist he goes.

Then they start school, and they hear other kids swearing.  they go to senior school, the schools are huge so individuals are lost and having to watch your things or they will be broken or stolen starts

this is where I believe that the parents have to go into the school and speak to the head and teachers and let them know they don't want their children picking up this bad language, if things are stolen, then everyone should have to stay in the class until whatever it is is found, this is what happened in my day and never did any harm - it also happened in my childrens day too - so although it seems archaic it works.
Are teachers able to do this now?

Childrens behaviours can be changed by parents and how they handle a situation.  If swearing can't be prevented in school, make sure it doesn't happen in the home!  Don't allow them to mix with children that do swear or children that you don't think are a good influence - be strict.

My daughter was bullied at school, I went to see the head and things changed, had they not then I was prepared to move schools or keep her at home.

It isn't easy, but bringing up children is the most difficult but rewarding thing we can do.  It is easy to 'give in' , but far better we don't no matter how hard.  I do think it is harder with boys than girls, and more difficult for single parents (which I was when both my daughters were at school) but I thought my daughters upbringing was worth fighting for and nothing would stop me getting exactly what I wanted and felt was right for them.  Life is tough, and we have to fight for what we believe in.

But we can't be expected to take responsibility for others, only our own!