A few months ago someone mentioned to me that they had seen a lady hitting her dog with a stick and described who it was.

I kept my eyes open for her and sure enough did meet the lady with a GSD who pulls constantly.  She walks him and  uses a walking stick which she holds in front of him to steady him.  I did mention training and harnesses etc to her and she said he had gone worse since training.  I gave her the benefit of the doubt as the person that mentioned it to me does tend to exaggerate, and the lady in question  did seem to be quite caring when I spoke to her.

However, today I was driving past her and noticed the dog pulling and I'm 99% sure she hit him with the stick (twice) I was really sickened and slowed down to look and she looked at me, and I didn't know what to do, whether to go and tell her not to do that, or maybe I hadn't seen it properly, maybe it looked as though she hit him and she didn't?

I'm really upset, I don't know what to do, if I report her and she hadn't hit him what would happen to the dog?   What is his life like with her, if she did hit him outside what happens to him in the house?

I feel so upset and helpless and want to help him but don't know how.

He has never looked very healthy either and is quite young - am I reading too much into this?

Maria :( :(

I would suggest that you wait until you can be 100% certain, I'm afraid :(

A friend has recently rehomed a BC which the local dog warden took from an elderly gentleman who had been hitting it :( He just couldn't cope with the young dog - it had been given to him as a Xmas present (I think) :( He was probably relieved to be rid of it - this lady could possibly be the same :(

Daisy

Hi Maria
You sound exactly like me ;)  It's so difficult to know what to do in such situations but it's equally hard to stand back and do nothing when you suspect an animal might be suffering. 
If you know where she lives I wonder if you could ask the RSPCA to pay her a visit just to check on the dog's welfare and home situation ?  If there's no problem that's fine but if not, you'll be glad you didn't turn a blind eye.
I feel I should say try not to get too upset but somehow I don't think that's an option....
xx

Thanks both for your replies :)
I've thought about trying to coincide my walking time with hers, but that is a difficult one when I haven't a clue what time she usually goes out :rolleyes:
I'm reluctant to report her if she isn't being cruel to him but I have a gut feeling that she isn't the best owner for him.  She is probably in her late 60's early 70's and I think she lives alone.  She herself doesn't walk too well and I think a large breed young dog like this needs a different owner.  I don't want to say younger, as my Dad is in his 80's and walks a few miles each day is still very strong, this lady doesn't appear to be like that :(

I'll keep my eyes open and fingers crossed for him - but I do feel so sad in my stomach for this boy :(

I feel sad for both the dog and his owner - if as you say she seems to be an elderly lady with a largeish young dog - she may be trying to keep the dog that used to belong to someone dear to her - and may be keeping the dog for all the wrong reasons - for both of them :(

If you can find out a little more about her, there is a charity that will help elderly people keep their beloved pets - or will help to rehome them if necessary when an elderly owner has to go into hospital or can no longer look after them.   It is called The Cinnamon Trust - website is http://www.cinnamon.org.uk/home.html

Margot

Thanks for the link Margot, that looks promising, I'll have a good read later.

It's going to be difficult to get to know more about the lady but I'm going to have to try.

HI Maria
I think I agree with Lois vp's suggestion of speaking to the local RSPCA. I'm sure that you are not the only person in your area who will be worried about the way she treats her dog, other people are bound to have noticed if she is treating it like that in public-goodness knows what may be going on at home.
I was recently at a very busy junction in the car, when I saw a man in his 20's with 2 'pit-bull' type dogs, one on a lead and one loose. He was waiting to cross when the off-lead dog saw someone it knew on the other side of the road and ran across to see him. Luckily he was not hit by a car but the owner went up to the dog and kicked him, in full view of everyone around. I was absolutely disgusted and cannot get it out of my mind! I had to move with the traffic and couldn't stop as I was on a red-route but if I had been walking I know I would have had a go at him. I'm sure that dog was used to being badly treated because it immediately cowered down on the floor after being kicked. Good luck with whatever you decide !

I remember posting a similar thing on here a while ago. A very elderly lady hitting her beautiful, friendly dog with a stick, right in front of me because he wouldn't return to her (having too much fun chasing my dog). I shouted at her, told her she was wicked, how dare she etc. I told her it was her fault for not training him properly. She replied that he 'got plently of love too'. She also told me that I didn't understand and that her husband was disabled. The biggest suprise was that she said she he was a rescue dog - I wish I knew where from as she was/is extremely frail to have such a young, big bouncy dog. I took her car registration - and told her I was reporting her (which I didn't).
I didn't know what to do. It's quite a well known dog walking place so I rang a few people who I knew used it to see if they knew her. The next day I called into the vets I use, I was so tearful. One of the girls there knew the lady and promised to keep an eye on things.

I have seen her since and it seems quite obvious that she has worked on recall. The dog looks very happy and I think that perhaps the fear of being reported has made her ask for help.
I still wonder if I did the right thing though by leaving it...................is he in the best place he could be ?. I don't know.

Don't forget - a lot of elderly folk were brought up on the Barbara Woodhouse/choke chain method of dog training :(

They may need some gentle training themselves ..... far better to suggest that "it would be fun to go to such and such a class with a lovely dog like yours" rather than "why don't you train your dog properly, you wicked old woman/man"

Margot

I was out on a walk with my 2 one evening and was just gob smacked when we walked passed (on the other side of the road) an oldish lady with a little terrier.  It started to bark at my 2 and within seconds the little dog was pulled on to his back legs, held there and when it did'nt stop she hit it with a newspaper across its head. I shouted at this lady and she told me to mind my own business which my reply to that was if i ever saw her do that again i would report her.

I would be worried about what happens behind closed doors as well to be honest :(

Maybe the RSPCA would be the best bet as then you could remain annoymous and know you have done all you can, I would do that more then confront her as she would just probably get angry and the dog may suffer more :(

Thanks for all the advice - it is appreciated!

I have made few discreet investigations via neighbours who have lived in the village longer than I have; she has lived in the village for years and has always had dogs.  Apparently she passes by our house most nights about 10 pm with him.  So I'm going to keep watch. I may be wrong saying he is a GSD as our neighbour thinks he is a crossbreed, they have never noticed her hitting him but are also going to keep their eyes open.

I'm going to try and have a chat with her and mention that he is a big boy and boisterous and had she thought of training (again) or maybe re-homing him?  Does that sound ok or not?

I don't want to call the rspca just yet, as I'm not sure

a) whether she has hit him

and
b) what would they do?

If youre worried give them a call as she has hit her dog and once is enough in my eyes!

They will simply call round and see her, have a word and check the dogs living conditions and enviroment, will probably make her buck her ideas up having a home visit from them.

But no charges will be brought unless she is found guilty of neglect or cruelty, so what ever happens you would have done a good thing in the dogs intrest! :)

Just to update, I couldn't wait until tonight so I have reported the incident to the RSPCA now and they will let me know the outcome.

I think you did the right thing there! :) :)

At least now you can sleep easy knowing youve done all you can and the dog may stop being abused.

Let us know what happens!

I think it is more than acceptable.  We once had a rottie and a GSD, one of whom managed to steal a cream pot.  They got really nasty with each other and started a nasty fight.  At the time my husband had just recovered from a knee operation and he used a crutch to separate, not hit, them.  But we were reported and the RSPCA visited.  We accepted that someone might have misinterpreted the situation and the RSPAC were very reasonable and pleasant about it, just pleased that it was a misunderstanding - they looked particularly at how the dogs reacted with us and said our dogs were more than happy.  If you aren't in the wrong then you have no reason to have a problem with them visiting.

As you say a lot of the older people do "train" their dogs differently.  I know someone quite well up in dogs and saw her hitting one of hers at a dog show telling it to be quiet it had hardly made a noise :rolleyes:  Even so, that's still not the right way to train a dog

Several times youngsters have shown an interest in watching me train my dogs and asked about it and asked about the clicker and how it works. And then my dog barks with excitement as some game I am playing and the youth will say with pride "ooh I have a dog and I know how to teach it not to bark you smack it on the nose good and sharp." Seriously hitting dogs is very common practice. If people are taught it is the correct way to train a dog they will believe it. It is very sad.

Well done Maria. :)  Even if they can't do anything more, an RSPCA visit might just be enough to make the woman realise she needs help or to rehome the dog. I also worry that anything you see people doing outside their home to a dog is the tip of the iceberg.

I remember sitting on my granny's wall when I was 9 (this is about 20 years ago), when a bloke walked past with a GSD on a really tight chain lead; it was whining continually and leaning as far away from him as it could get. When it walked past me it went to snap at my feet which were dangling near its head. Its reason for this was probably explained by the bloke's response - he yanked it away with the chain and then kicked it as hard as he could in the stomach. I had no idea what to do about it, but it is an image that has stayed with me. :( Poor poor dog. :(

A lot of people that do that sort of thing are just bullies anyway - the bloke next door to my gran got a labrador puppy, and my gran's other neighbour, Elsie, who's in her 80s and loves dogs, saw him hitting it with a newspaper for some reason. So she yelled at him "Stop hitting that dog". He took no notice so she shouted it again. When he looked up and saw her he didn't say anything, just looked down scuttled in the house and shut the door!!!! But he was not seen hitting the dog again....

Let us know what happens.

hi maria did they get back to you. its horrible when you see things like that happen i was once walking my springer and we were on a field playing with the ball when a staffie ignored its owners instructions to get back to him when he was chasing the ball so he started punching and kicking it.

UPDATE
Not much to update really, I haven't heard from the RSPCA so I phoned this morning who assured me that the inspector they gave the case to will contact me soon, but can't say which day or how soon.
I will let you know the outcome as soon as I hear something from them.
Maria

Unfortunately, if this is an older lady it seems to be an old trick that some people way back used.

Going back approx 15 years I was training one of mum's Springers and I bumped into an older gentleman with two Springers he stood watching me training and said " You need to use a stick on him, Springers need a hit with a stick to get their attention"

So it may well be an old training method, it must be a GSD of good temperment to take this 'training' method, but it does make me think it may well not be hit with a stick in the home as I'm sure it would eventually turn and the stick is being used as a tool to train the dog not to pull.

Hopefully the RSPCA will point her in the right direction of other training methods, if nothing else your call will at least show her this training method is unacceptable. :-(

I remember reading the advice to walk the dog close to a wall or fence and have the stick across the front of the dog so that it bumped into it if it pulled forward and would be tapped across the legs with the stick for surging forward, not walloped with it :D

I suppose the effect was supposed to be the same as I got when walking my first few dogs alongside a pushchair, if they got across in front of it chances were they would get their toes ridden across so they learnt to stay back nicely.  My first three dogs were taught to walk on lead next to a pushchair.

I read a similar method on a US forum recently, a member there uses a 6ft lead to train her dog to walk at heel (as in LLW, not heelwork proper) - if the dog is having one of those days they all have, and keeps trying to get ahead, the owner will twirl the end of the lead continuously in front of herself so that if the dog tries to move ahead, it gets thwapped on the nose with the twirling lead.

The pushchair thing I must admit I think is fair enough - it's one of life's little lessons, like learning that if you sleep right behind mama's feet when she's washing up, you're likely to get trodden on (naming no names River... :p).  Not something that should be done intentionally but life is full of these little learning experiences.

A gundog man in my work uses a stick to teach his dogs to walk to heel too - he swings it from side to side when walking, if the dog goes too far forward it will hit them, so they learn to stay at his side or just behind him.

Yes I have seen this demonstrated when I was a child and looked almost like the way a white stick would be used by a blind person

You never know what the outcome will be when you report someone to the RSPCA. Years ago my next door neighbour had a GSD bitch in an outside kennel, and she was tethered before he left for work at 7am and stayed there until he came home after 7pm.  She howled and barked constantly.  When he was home, and she was let off the chain, she would come to the fence, and her temperament was lovely. As far as I was aware, she was never allowed in the house.  An older woman came to my door, and asked me to sign a petition against my neighbour, as his dog barked all day.  I refused - being a dog owner, I would hate anyone to complain about mine!  Living alone, I have no choice about working full time (have to keep a roof over the heads of me and my canines), but I have a dog sitter during the day and all my gang live in the house.  However, it wasn't long before I noticed Bella wasn't outside.  When I saw  my neighbour, he said that he had brought her indoors, but, as she wasn't clean, she slept in the cupboard under the stairs!  I assume she was shut in there all day!  It wasn't long before I heard her yelps and his shouting when he came home from work.  I can only assume that she was beaten for messing in the cupboard.  Eventually, one weekend when he was obviously home, I saw her in the garden with a fresh weal across her face, very bloody, almost as if she had been whipped.  I phoned the RSPCA.  To this day they have never got back to me.  A few days later, my neighbour pointedly dug a huge grave next to my fence.  Big enough for Bella.  And he never spoke to me again.

I don't think you can say all reported casses would end up that way.  In many cases the dog would be signed over to be taken away and rehomed.  Would it have been better if she had stayed living in a cupboard and beaten about the head?

I'm not the greatest loiver of the RSPCA and recently was very confused over their attitude to something I reported. However, once when I did report and they investigated they did come back to me with the outcome. It may depend on the Inspector involved maybe some don't get back with feedback.

Isabel I didn't say all reported cases would end up that way.  I said you never know what the outcome will be.  I certainly never implied that it would have been better for her to stay in a cupboard.  But the final outcome is that for 9 years I have been reminded that I reported it when I go into my garden and see the grave right next to my fence. 

I don't think you should feel bad at all.  You are not the wicked person in this story and you did exactly what had to be done in my opinion.

Update

Just to let your all know that the rspca inspector phoned today to tell me that she had visited the lady who I reported.

The lady is in her 80's so a little older than I thought, the dog was a present as a puppy to her 2 years ago.  He is a GSD and the lady had been reported to the rspca previously.  She admitted he was too strong for her and had never let him have a run off lead. 

I'm not sure if this is good or bad but they have taken the dog from her and he is now in rescue :(
I feel dreadful, but the rspca inspector said he wouldn't be there for long as he is a young, healthy good looking boy with a wonderful temperament.

At least I know he isn't being hit anymore and hopefully he will have the chance of a loving forever home - I've got everything crossed for him now and feel responsible for him and still wonder whether or not I did the right thing :(

Maria

I would think she probably agreed to sign him over, if she admitted he was a bit much - I could be wrong but I don't think the RSPCA can sieze healthy, well cared for dogs.  I'm still a little hazy on the new welfare act though.

I'm glad the dog now has the opportunity of a home more suited to him. In her 80s . My granny's that age, and I certainly couldn't see her managing a large young lively dog. I do feel sorry for the lady too - maybe she'll get an older cat or small dog that would be easier for her to manage?  Do PAT dogs visit people in their own homes, or is it only care homes and hospitals and things they go to?

Although I feel really pleased for the dog, I do feel devastated for the poor lady who has now lost her companion - and I do hope that maybe the RSPCA can assist her in finding/fostering an elderly dog, which will be a more suitable companion for her.

Let's not forget - this lady has courage in admitting that a young dog is too much for her - it will come to all of us :(

Old age aint for cissies!

Margot

Yes I know Margot, I feel very sad for her and also for the dog in rescue :(  At least he isn't being badly treated now, and hopefully he will find his forever home soon.

The rspca inspector did say that in all other ways he was probably well cared for but the lady admitted to him being too much for her and so I hope it has also helped her in some way.

After putting down the phone I did cry as I was very upset about it all.  But, had she said they were not going to do anything I would have been so worried for the poor boy.

Maria

You did the right thing and the lady may well have been relieved, just not wanting to admit it. Who on earth is stupid enough to give a lady in her 80's a GSD as a present that's what I would like to know!! Talk about madness! What would have been wrong with say a Yorkie?! My mother in law wanted a small rescue dog but as we could not find one we ended up getting her a Labrador. The big difference is, MIL NEVER walks the dog and will never have to -the rest of us do.

A dog of my breed came into rescue at about two years old in exactly such a situation.  Her son had bought him for her, and she was left to get on with it.  He was super but just boinging off the walls and not able to get the excersise he needed as he was too strong for her to take for walks.

Maria - I can understand you being upset about this but you mustn't feel guilty. You saw a dog being poorly treated and you were prepared to do something to help him. You didn't ask for the dog to be removed, you just asked the RSPCA to check things out - and that is what they did.  If the old lady admitted that she was finding it hard to cope, then I would say that the best possible outcome has been achieved for both her and the dog. 
You did the right thing :)
xx

I too feel very sorry for the lady, who may have felt nervous of a person in uniform and felt pressurised to sign away her pet when perhaps other arrangements for walking it could have been made. Does she have family nearby or was the dog her main companion? Fostering an elderly dog would be an excellent idea.

But she was hitting her dog with sticks!!!  A person who does this sort of thing should not have a dog be they 80 or 18 - even fostering.  You did the right thing.  The RSPCA would not have taken the dog if they had not been concerned about its welfare.

Now I wasn't there so can only surmise, but perhaps if someone else had walked the dog for the old lady she wouldn't have needed to use such drastic action to make sure the boisterous dog didn't cause her to fall and break a bone. And perhaps she'd been given a dog of that breed for her protection after maybe being mugged in the past? As I say, it's only guesswork, but there are always two sides to every story.

And remember, elderly people have a greater respect for uniforms than many young people nowadays. It often doesn't take much to get them to agree to everything they're told. :(

I think you did the right thing, the lady is getting older, and what if she was to fall ill? Its easier to home a dog of that age then an older dog with behaviour problems that have resulted in lack of excerise and proper guidence.

In the 1970s, when this lady would have been 50-ish the "in" dog trainer was Barbara Whitehouse.   This was the usual way of training back then.  Over this lady's life she probably has had three or four dogs, probably all trained in this manner.   When she was bought this dog, as a present - maybe her family thought she needed protection?  Who knows.    It was not thought through properly - either for the dog, or the lady concerned.   

What has happened has happened for the best for both of them the young dog needs an energetic owner who can respond to his needs - but please, don't forget the elderly lady involved as well as the dog - she could be your grandma - and who is considering her needs?

Margot

>Barbara Whitehouse. 

You're not thinking of Barbara Woodhouse??

Mary Whitehouse was the censorship and anti porn campaigner?

Interesting cross then! Barbara Whitehouse would be shouting "walkies" and use choke chains on men wanting to buy porno mags! :D

I feel sorry for the elderly lady but at the end of the day it is much better that the dog is not being hit and has the chance of a new home where he will perhaps be allowed off lead. I hope very much that the lady has friends and family who will take care of her and be part of her life, but also hope that no-one will be so silly as to get her a boisterous young male dog again .

Lindsay
x

>You're not thinking of Barbara Woodhouse?? <

Cough, cough, splutter splutter ...............talking about little old ladies has turned me into one :D

Apologies all round - of course I meant Barbara Woodhouse :D

It was all that checking on who was posting what last evening that caused me to make such an enormous fundamental error!!  Sorry peeps!

Mary Whitehouse was the lady we all laughed at (at the time) for complaining about what was being shown on television ....now a lot of us feel that she was right - but that's another topic completely!

And as Lindsay says - let's hope the lady has friends and family who will take care of her - but let's face it - if the RSPCA and Maria had to intervene before any action was taken - it doesn't seem likely :(

Margot

Yep their idea of taking care of her was to get her a puppy of a strong active breed she couldn't cope with.

She could easily have coped with a nice middle aged/older rescue bitch even of the same breed, and I wish someone would help her get a suitable dog now, and that the RSPCA haven't black listed her.