We have just had a ckcs in to our shelter and he has been bought in by his owners who can no longer cope with his killing of small animals. They say he has killed a cat, rabbits, chickens and now a guinea pig. He is about 9 years old and extremly overweight for a cavvy.

This has really shocked me... is a cavvy capable of this?

Oh I'm sorry but this post has made me laugh!!

A 9 year old overweight cav killing a cat?!

It all seems extremely unlikely, but i guess not impossible.

If you could tame his savage tendancies he may make an ideal new family member for you? Of course you'd have to make sure he wouldn't kill your boy!!

:D

OK, I've got control of myself and got over my giggles.

Yes, I suppose this is possible. Any dog is capable of killing something, my own regularly catch, kill and eat rabbits(borzois) - but a cavalier would be the least likely imo to do this. However if thats what they say then you have to take them at their word and be very careful with him.

I just can't help thinking that even a savage cav would have a job killing a cat - does he have scars all over him?

extremly overweight for a cavvy

Maybe he sat on them?! :d

Being serious for one minute - any dog is capable of killing something but I have to say I've never heard of a CKCS being so aggresive, especially a nine year old obese one!

Debs

I know i did have quite a giggle myself and nearly didn't post as i thought i would be branded a nutter!!!

He gets on well with the other dogs we have and seems quite friendly, like you my husband was baffled as to how being so fat (and he is very fat!) he would be able to catch a cat or rabbit...

I am sure we will get to see his personality more whilst he is in the shelter, i don't think i could take him home as our boy is a similar size to a cat and joking aside i couldn't risk anything happening to him!

It could have been a pet rabbit that he killed, and guinea pigs can easily die of shock, so if he chased one or picked it up that could be enough to kill it.

Generally apart from mistaken identity when chasing, a dog will go after prey animals but that doesn't mean he will be a dnager to other dogs, lets face it most are not going to be much smaller.

My boy is alot smaller than him

Smaller or slimmer

both

I'm guessing that his killing has been going on for some years if he's overweight! However a cavvy is a dog, and dogs are predators. Even Yorkies can make very good ratters and mousers, so don't put anything past a cav. To have killed a cat (unless he chased it into the road where it was run over) is going some though!

Maybe they've deliberately made him overweight to dampen down his killing tendancies :)  I've noticed that if Tchi carries a little more weight he's not quite as sharp. I would never have him overweight but find if he's got a covering over his ribs, he's more manageable.

I would agree with JG though and assume that all this happened in his earlier days, except the guinea pig.

Or it could just be an excuse to get rid of the dog before the family goes on holiday?

How very odd and extremely unlikely for the reasons others have already pointed but I would also say that although I have no doubt at all that my old terrier would of been capable of killing it wasn't beyond my humble wit to prevent her having the opportunity, certainly of killing any domestic creature, so why on earth did these people feel it was beyond them :rolleyes:
It sounds to me like another one of those tales that people give when they are no longer willing to care for an animal.

Also extremely sad that they have allowed him to become so overweight!!!

Yes maybe you are right and it is a tale but we will never really know unless he attempts it again!

He looks like a ballooned cavvy!!

We had a Cavalier that was a working gundog so it's not impossible for one to kill a rabbit, if it could catch it in the first place ;) They are Spaniels after all :)

I must admit i couldn't imagine our baby boy killing anything, he's cheeky but sooooo sweet natured!!

I accept that dogs could be like that though, i hope that it wasn't just a story and that he wasn't just unwanted!!

Hopefully we can find him a nice new home where the owners are aware of the strain his weight must be putting on his heart!

Why would being able to kill make him any less sweet, it is one of the main reasons dogs were domesticated and most of the sweetest natured of all the breeds are the gundog and hound breeds which were designed and are often still kept primarily for hunting.

My own breed are the sweetest most affectionate creatures,b ut they are excellent hunters and that is their prime purpose, and most of the dogs I have had have had hunting dogs as sires or grandsires.

The sire of my current puppy is a Finnish champion.  He is so soppy that he preferred to sweet talk and fuss over me rather than the bitch I had brought him for mating :D  Outside the hunting season he is a lap dog living with the owners sister.

The sweet purring pussycats many of us have on our laps and beds if allowed out problaby kill more than most any hunting dog.

cavs were always reckoned to be the least instinctive of any breed, and i would tend to agree with that. A few years ago there was a big (and I mean BIG MONEY) bet between 2 very well known folk that one of them could train a ckcs to work to legal quarry . I never did find out the result as sadly brian, the trainer, died before i could ask him, but it was well publicised so maybe someone knows the answer

Were they not supposed to originally hunt small game birds as well as warm ladies laps

I have a Golden Retriever with the best temperament of any dog I have ever owned but he will catch and kill squirrels.

My sister's CKCS wouldn't dream of hurting a thing, she is as soft as butter and although she's tried to be a Munster and chase rabbits, she's never come close to catching one.  Catching & killing just seems alien in a CKCS's temperament to me.

the way you are saying that makes it sound as if dogs that can catch and kill quarry have poor temperaments, we are maybe talking inability versus ability nothing to do with temperament, natural instincts.

Why would it be alien to a dogs nature to hunt and kill, I am sure they enjoy meat as opposed to a vegetarian diet given the option, just because they are toy dogs does not make them any less dogs.

No it says nothing of the sort.  Where have I implied that I am saying they are any less capable than any other dog?  In fact Tinkerbell will walk for as far as my Munsters can (But only when it was dry not in rain) so she defies the lap dog picture that some would give them.  However, I am basing my assumptions on the CKCS I have known & know of and none have displayed any sort of tendencies like that.   And there are lots of breeds that used to have a function but it's very rare you see a lot of these breeds doing so.   When was the last time you saw a Rottie used as a drover's dog?   Or a Pekingese up someone's sleeve?

Whatever a breed's manmade function was, they still remain predators. :)

I'm not sure that Cavaliers were expected to kill the birds they raised though.  I don't really know their history but I always understood that Cockers were bred to raise birds out of the undergrowth for the marksman.  Even an injured birds is not supposed to be killed by a retrieving gundog.  I'm not sure what their attitude to furry creatures are though.  I'm sure my Cocker has some pretty nasty intentions towards the neighbourhood cats if she only got the chance :)

> Catching & killing just seems alien in a CKCS's temperament to me.

But that is what they were bred for & many still have the instincts

The cavalier that I looked after for some time was the sweetest, kindest more gentle loving dog you could meet. BUT when I took her to my mums and she caught sight of mums rabbits and guinea pigs she would turn into the most ferocious killing machine that wanted those things dead!! I've no doubt at all, that had she ever got into their pen (and lord knows she tried :rolleyes: )would definately have murdered them!! Her owner tells me she regularly goes on 'mouse patrol' now.

So yes, cavaliers are capable! :D :D

Must add though she was only 3 and wasn't overweight at all, and was brilliant with my cat (would chase ones she didn't know tho)

Cavaliers were bred to hunt Woodcock & small game plus also keep the bedchambers free from furry vermin for the ladies

There is a shoot in Scotland that actually has Cavaliers as working spaniels-don't ask me where though

My Joedee(my smallest Cavalier)will hunt mice/squirrels & will sit patiently for hours waiting for the mice/squirrels in the garden to emerge. He taught my BC to hunt the squirrels & Joedee once got stuck up one of the apple trees after going after a squirrel

Aggression towards people, other dogs & cats is alien to the breed, but hunting small mammals & birds isn't

I didn't mean to start such a debate!!! lol

I didn't mean that because that cavvy killed things he was evil or that any other dog doing so was evil so apologies if that is how it came across!

I used to help out with the rabbits and i also help out with the cats so i suppose i see it from their point of view also:rolleyes:

I very much doubt that the boy in question killed a cat or a rabbit, more likely just as excuse to get rid of him due to his age :-(

I had a tiny cat(no more than 2 kilos in weight)& he always won against dogs & often would chase much bigger dogs than himself. I had a beardie who hated cats(she lived with a friend in partnership)& whilst staying with me she tried to attack him-big mistake & she ended up much the worse off-Mouse the cat wasn't hurt at all.

Some of mine would happily hunt ALL day long and yes are capable of killing, the others are lazy so and so's that find it an effort to move off the sofa.  But yes a Cavalier is more than capable of killing
As Moonmaiden said further up, it is after all what they were bred for,it does annoy me when people think they can have a Cavalier and not walk it, that it will be happy to sit on laps all day long. Some are happy doing this, but some of mine need almost as much exercise and stimulation as a gundog

Yep people forget they are Cavalier King Charles SPANIELS, even if they are Toy Spaniels :D  I meet and awful lot of them some are grossly fat, but the ones that aren't get long walks ans what so they spend their time doing hunting the undergrowth :D

Yep the dog that I'm showing at the moment who's doing really well spends his days in undergrowth, many people have said to me how can you let him, his coat He is dripping in coat and after every walk we have to tip him upside down and pull brambles out of him, but would NEVER stop him doing what he loves most  It can be quite hard to keep the weight on him because he is so active, but we manage :)

It's lovely to hear of smaller breeds being allowed to be 'proper' dogs. :) It's so much better for their mental and physical health. :)

Yes thats true, his coat is in A1 condition, can almost see your reflection in it (he's a black and tan) and he is all muscle, someone once said to me it's a mixture of good breeding and good freeding, but I think it's a lot to do with exercise and fresh air too
Sorry taking this off topic now...

Not really as this poor rescue boy is obese ans mayhap his predatory tendencies are partly frustration if he didn't get the kind of mental and physical stimulation a DOG needs.

Also regarding coat we all know that stress causes dogs to shed excessively, so conversely a happy contented fulfilled canine fed well should have a good healthy coat.

Well i've had a restless night worrying about this poor boy in rescue so we have bought him home today (not to keep) and i have spent the morning grooming him (he is shedding sooo much hair!!) and we have been playing with him in the garden and after a rest we are going to take him to the park with our little boy. I was very cautious when introducing them but he appears to be frightened of our little boy!!!

I am wary of giving him too much exercise because he pants alot just walking, he can't jump up because of his weight and whilst in our garden he has done as much poo as our boy does probably over the course of a week.

I even found it very hard to lift him into our boot!!!

I really want to help him to find a loving home and to be healthy and happy as a cavvy owner (and lover of the breed) i feel that if i don't help him who will??

Any advice about what i could do would be gratefully appreciated

Put him on a diet.  I would advise a good quality food not a diet one and feed him about two to three ounces of itat most if it is a dry food. 

If he is hungry all the time Low cal treats like pieces of carrot or apple.  some people add cooked cabbage and carrot to a dogs food to bulk it up and help stave off hunger pangs.

As for excersise lots of short bits as opposed to a long treck.  Playing with another dog may encourage activity.  Has the vet checked his heart?

No he hasn't seen a vet yet, obviously his heart could be a problem!

Do you mean raw carrot and raw apple? (sorry if this is a silly question)

Is there a dried food you would recommend?

Thanks

i would even go so far as to suggest this could even be a completely made-up tale by the ex-owner, simply trying to make a justifiable excuse to rid of the dog. i have seen it happen many times

Jumping in here late -this was my first thought too Sam, what's the bet with his age and weight the owners were told he needed heart medication and they didn't want to pay for it so made up an excuse......

My Cocker gained weight over the last F&M epidemic and lost it very effectively when we fed Beta Light but Cockers are rather greedy dogs and do need a filling food to stop them reaching the point of misery :)

My own personal favourite dry food is Arden Grange  You have a choice between chicken, lamb or salmon based recipes in the adult formulas.

Raw carrot and apple for treats, but cooked or raw veg added to meals, the idea is that it is just to help fill them up.  Green Beans are another possibility, as is cooked unsweetened Pumpkin or Squash.

My breed put on weight easily, my 20 kg adult bitches get 150g of the Arden Grange adult and my 8 month old pup gets 200g of the Puppy and she is a not a small girl.  so may people get quite creative with non fattening items to add to dogs diets or to use as treats.

He was fed Butchers before apparently

Well I would imagine no more than half a tin a day would suffice, though I don't know if he would loose any weight on that amount?

Oh no they aren't going to continue feeding him that, thats just what food he was on before.

I bathed him and he stunk!!

The water was brown, his nails are long there is alot of white after the quick and they are curved round!!

His ears have got alot of brown gunk in them too?? Is this what they are like when they are older?

Our boys ears are spotless!

He is apparently healthy, he was owned by someone in the medical prof!!!!!:rolleyes:

He needs to see a vet to have his ears examined. Brown gunk is a sign of problems that require treatment. Can you do his nails yourself?

They are going to get him to see a vet this week. I can't do his nails as i don't have the cutters... was planning on getting our boys done at the grooming parlour.

Have just taken him back and now i think he is going to have his fur shaved!!!!:rolleyes:

Oh no shaving him is the worse thing he can have done, better to use scissors as this does not permanently damage the fur follicles like clipping. Even if he is very matted the mats can be cut out & the rest of his coat trimmed without the use of clippers-he will have cotton wool coat if he is clipped

I think someone who has some experience will be doing it so maybe when she said clipping she meant cutting?

He isn't matted in fact he has a short ish coat, i brushed him and it was fine he just has alot of coat and its fluffy (he has been neutured!!)

I am hopeful that he will be homed as having had him at home today with children he has a lovely little personality, very placid!!

He was just frightened of our puppy (when he was jumping over him!!:rolleyes:) and seems a bit timid where the other dogs are concerned at the shelter.

Fingers crossed