I am mating my 5 1/2 yr old bitch when she comes in season (anticipated to be End Sept / Early Oct).
She is currently due to have her booster jab (actually 2 months overdue!)

She has had 1 previous litter (3 pups).
Each of these pups were vaccinated (my own, Connie, had her's at 9 & 12 wks).
At 7 months old, Connie went down with Parvo, and very nearly died.

The conclusion was that Spice (mum) had passed on high levels of maternal antibodies and that they had destroyed the vaccine. Once the maternal antibodies wore off, Connie had no immuntiy. I took her to her first show, and 8 days later she was on a drip at the vets.

I am now in the sistuation that I do not know whether or not to have Spice's booster done, for fear of the same thing happening again

Advice / Opinions please!!!

Thanks, Di

You could request advise from Intervet, or ask your vet to.  They may be able to advise the optimum period of time from coming off of their mother to being vaccinated. 

A few years ago my Vet recommended me not to have my girl vaccinated due to the fact that she was about to be mated. He said that she shouldn't have her vaccination until after she had stopped feeding the puppies.

I got the same advice from my vet. The bitch was on day 10 of ther season and due to be mated when her booster was due. I put off the vaccination until the puppies were totally weaned.
Diane

My vet says the same too, not to vaccinate if mum was due to be mated or had recently had pups.

That's odd!  And I'm not saying who's right or wrong here - just giving you my experience.  At the end of last year I took one of my girls to the vet for her booster jab - she was on day 2 of her season.  When I told the vet that she was going to be mated, he said that at least her pups would be well covered.  She is a toy breed, and reared two healthy puppies.  Both were vaccinated as pups.  They were born in January 2007.  I regularly hear from the person who had the bitch puppy, she has had no problems at all.  In fact she is always telling me what a healthy fit pup she is.   

The risk is that her puppy vaccinations would not have taken, and if she didn't come in contact with those diseases then you wouldn't know and hopefully her boosters will have covered her after that, but for a a year she may have been at risk.

In the past before this was more known people used to boost bitches before mating, but as knowledge has advanced it has been found to be counter productive.  Same as giving bitches in whelp Calcium supplements, which will actually increase the risk of eclampsia.

I have never heard this before,
I had my bitches booster done about 2 weeks before her season started, I spoke to the vet about it asking if it was better to have her booster done before or wait until the puppies had gone which meant that she would be late with her booster. She recommended getting her booster done before.
I thought I was forward thinking getting her up to date before thinking of having her mated, the breeder I used did ask when boosters were due and I told her that she had been done early before her season and she never mentioned anything either.
Not sure who's right or wrong but obviously different vets have different views on this as with lots of other things.

As I understand it the interference of maternal antibodies can occur if the mother has been recently vaccinated or not. It is a problem but it appears to only happen occasionally.  You would not want the situation where the mother is not providing adequate protection to a nursing litter either so I think you could opt either way.

but it appears to only happen occasionally.

At a seminar that I attended in 1996, a Vet from a major drug company stated that 2 out of every 5 pups vaccinated didn't accept the vaccine due to maternal immunity.  I don't consider that to be occassional. :)

Not sure if that can be true as you would expect a wider regime than the two vaccines normally administered to cover this "gap" but seems like an even greater reason to keep the herd effect strong :)

I trust the word of a qualified Veterinary Surgeon who provided evidence from the company who employed him.  Should I consider the opinion of a pet owner on a forum to be of more relevance? :)

No, I'm suggesting we trust Intervets regime :)

And they are the ones who said that only 3 out of each vaccination courses takes, and the other 2 fails due to maternal immunity out of every 5 pups vaccinated. :)

I wasn't at the seminar so I will have to take the word of a pet owner on a message board ;) that he was speaking officially for the vaccination company or whether he was presenting a piece of his own research that would need weighing against any others that they may have commissioned but what we do know is that Intervet consider the regime of two vaccinations sufficient to provide protection for the population.  If they were not finding it so I am sure they would be the first to recommend additional cover as maternal immunity dropped away :)

Interesting topic..I was really annoyed with myself after I realised that my girl didn't get her booster in May, but she came into season 2 months early(in May) and we got swept along in arranging everything else, and she was 4 weeks pregnant before I checked when I attended the vets for a routine health check...I later read somewhere (and I can't remember where) that if the vaccine was due less than 2 months before mating then it was best to wait until the bitch had finished feeding the pups...(please don't quote me, I cannot recall where I read this and may not be 100% accurate :rolleyes: )
so I felt better about it, and she will be booked in probably end of October.

just a note, and slightly off topic...the vet visit was to see about a worming program whilst she was pregnant, the vet recommended it, but just before her appt I was advised to leave her until the pups were born and worm from 2 weeks. I have read on here that opinion is divided, so I am interested to see how they get on this week (first worming sesh - I have been warned I may end up wearing it LOL)

My girls get a full booster every three years and Lepto every year, they get wormed four times a year. Now Treacle has been mated..fingers crossed for pups... she, along with the others was due her Lepto this month (the vet sends me a reminder..came two days after she was mated :rolleyes: ) so she has not had her lepto now, I will do it after she has finished feeding pups but as they are done regularly a couple of months will not have any great disadvantages in my book! Worming is a different matter and I have wormed them all including Treacle..I always worm my in-whelp bitches, they get something called Mobidex and it is licensed for pregnant bitches, so far we have not had any problems and I have never had a heavy worm burden in my pups, the pups get wormed every two weeks from 3 weeks old and I send them off with an advice sheet recomending worming monthly till six months, then 3 monthly for life. I think it is a personal choice as to how often and whether you do it during pregnancy most of the available drugs are licensed for pregnancy and no doubt until you have a problem yourself it is easy to say don't worry. I have heard of all sorts of problems being attributed to worming and inoculation but am lucky not to have had a problem.
I know some dogs react differently to others and what suits mine may not be good for others. Maybe we should all Titre test before inoculating, just to be sure we are not overdosing with drugs the dogs do not need..never done it yet but I may consider it in the future.

An acqaintance had her bitch boostered at 6 weeks gestation. No problems - a healthy litter.

At a seminar that I attended in 1996, a Vet from a major drug company stated that 2 out of every 5 pups vaccinated didn't accept the vaccine due to maternal immunity.
These are the antibodies that protect the pup up to approx 12 weeks of age, this being the reason pups shouldn't be vaccinated until after  12 weeks of age, and then only needing one vaccination for parvo/distemper.  The reason 2 vaccinations are given is that the first shot doesn't work because of the maternal antibodies.  I got my advice from a professor specialising in animal vaccinations and desease at Glasgow uni.

The first dose does work for those puppies whose maternal immunity has dropped off already. This can happen quite rapidly so it is important for a lot of puppies.  Intervet explain it here.

Intervet would obviously advise 2 shots are needed - it doubles their income :rolleyes:
I'm more than confident with the advice I have from the Professor specialising in vaccinations and K9 deseases on how best to keep my dogs safe, rather than the vaccine manufacturers who admit themselves 'in a perfect world all dogs would be titre tested to establish whether a booster is needed'! 

Was that the same professor who assured you that there had ben no cases of distemper in the UK for 10+ years, obviously being unaware that Marianne had lost dogs to it (lab confirmed) within that time? And Helen0362 had a puppy confirmed with the disease in January last year.

Or am I getting confused with someone else? :o

He adivsed that dogs were UNLIKELY to come into contact with distemper in the UK.

2 cases don't make an epidemic JG :P

None of us knows how many other dogs were infected by those, though.

He would be very aware of any incidents reported and whether or not this constituted a threat to the K9 population as a whole. 

We can only go from personal experience, because we are never given the full facts when 'big business' is involved and we remain ignorant of the numbers of dogs succumbing to these diseases, either through the vaccines themselves or naturally.

Unfortunately that's the way of the world, it has always worked like that and is unlikely to change in our lifetimes.

We just have to find out as much information as possible and do what we believe is best for our animals and try not to follow blindly.

Sorry, I was referring to your post of 19/1/07 where you said:

>I was advised that distemper hasn't been seen in the UK for over 10 years.

That's very different to saying that contact is merely 'unlikely'. Saying that it hasn't been seen for a decade is giving people a false sense of security.

it hadn't been seen as a threat in 10 years, in fact I have just looked at my notes and it was over 10 years.

So was perhaps the confirmed cases NOT seen as a threat because most dogs were vaccinated? Like my own dogs who did not catch it off my pup because they were. :)

It was obviously a threat to Marianne's dog, whether or not the 'powers that be' considered it to be one. In fact, it's obviously considered to be a threat, or they wouldn't still vaccinate against it. We don't vaccinate humans against smallpox any more, because that isn't a threat, whereas it used to be a very common killer.

Quite possibly the distemper that Marianne's puppy caught could be from one of the vaccinated adults?  We don't know the full history of whether the littermates also had distemper and if the mother was vaccinated too close to gestation, or if indeed vaccinated at all, I don't know the facts so can only speculate. And I'm sure it was awful to see a young puppy so poorly.

As I said, we all have to find as much info as possible and decide on the safest measures for our dogs.  To blindly pump in chemicals year on year is not for me I'm erring on the side of caution and listening to what the independent experts have to say.  And NO, I don't count virbac or intervet as the best experts to inform us, as they have a vested interest.

We don't vaccinate against smallpox as it is no longer a threat - correct.  And we don't vaccinate humans year on year for those diseases that are still a threat, because once we have immunity it lasts in the most cases for life.  It has been proven that once dogs have immunity it lasts for at least 7 years, and in some cases life.

No JG I don't intentionally try to give people a false sense of security, I leave that to the likes of Virbac and Intervet.

>It has been proven that once dogs have immunity it lasts for at least 7 years, and in some cases life.

That doesn't explain about Ice Cosmos's dog's titres coming back low two years in succession.

And as Ice Comos says :
(and I know that just because the titre is low doesn't mean they aren't immune).

A low titre reading is not necessarily an indication of low immunity.

If you can't rely on titre testing I wonder how they concluded any dogs still had protection at 7 years. 

Quite possibly the distemper that Marianne's puppy caught could be from one of the vaccinated adults?  We don't know the full history of whether the littermates also had distemper and if the mother was vaccinated too close to gestation, or if indeed vaccinated at all, I don't know the facts so can only speculate. And I'm sure it was awful to see a young puppy so poorly.

Yes we do know. :) The adults were NOT vaccinated, that was the point, as this is why the pups did not have mother's immunity even at just 7 weeks of age -and at least one other littemate was diagnosed with distemper. (Again I have copies of this dog's test results etc as the owners contacted me to compare notes.)

>Intervet would obviously advise 2 shots are needed - it doubles their income

Not only does their site explain quite clearly why this is necessary there seems general agreement amongst the posters that maternal antibodies can present an inhibition.  If Intervet were inclined to take advantage of the situation it seems to me they would have puppies coming back for even more top ups :)

With respect that is absolute rubbish Isabel.

As long as the mother of the litter has been vaccinated and has immunity then the litter will have the protection of the maternal antibodies which wane by 12 weeks.  After this time only 1 shot of parvo/distemper is necessary for immunity for pups.  They give 2 if the pups have a shot before 12 weeks, as the maternal antibodies cancel out the first vaccine (so  an unnecessary and quite possibly dangerous expense).

Clearly Marianne's pup was not protected by the Mother's antibodies as Marianne has just told us that the Mother in this case was not vaccinated.

That is all I have to say on the subject on this thread otherwise we will be going around in circles.

>which wane by 12 weeks

Leaving a potential gap of varying size depending on when they were weaned and how rapidly the cover falls off.  Quite quickly, according to the information on Intervets site.  I think that most people would wish to see period covered.  I certainly would not want to either rely on maternal cover or keep my puppy in worldy isolation until the 12 week vaccination had become effective.

I had exactly the same advice from my vet too