There have been some posts castigating owners for dragging dogs round showrings, suggesting that showing is only for the owners' benefits and not the dogs', and that the dogs would be better off at home.

Then there are the other posts, berating those who put their dogs into kennels whilst going on holiday without their dogs.

So - are dog owners all supposed to sit at home, staring deep into their dogs' eyes, contemplating the meaning of life?

Come on people!!  Let's have some balance here!   We are talking about dogs - our canine companions.   Let's not anthropomorphorise on this point!   If you want to take your dogs on holiday with you, that is absolutely fine.    If you want to take one of your dogs, and leave the others in kennels or at home, so that should be fine too.    If you want a complete break from all things domestic, including dogs, then surely that is fine as well!

Just as some people love socialisation and lots of buzzing activity, so do some dogs - and to some other dogs (and people) it is absolute hell!

We aren't all the same - and neither are our dogs.   Let's give everyone the respect they deserve, and accept that each of us knows our own dogs best.

Margot x

Ahh ...but it is only double standards if the same people are posting on both threads ;)

> We aren't all the same - and neither are our dogs

Very true, Margot :) :) I love my dogs to bits - but to me they are only dogs :D I take the best care of them that I can - I waited until I was 44 before I had my own dog so that it would have the best care that I deem acceptable (albeit shared with OH and kids :D ) :) :) But I don't go over the top - I'm just not that sort of person - I don't do Rainbow Bridge nor spend a fortune on leads, beds etc etc. If others think that their dogs are their children - that's fine, just not for me :) My dogs aren't the same as others either - an example - at the weekend, OH and I were working all day in the garden building a shed (yes - still :D ). We don't do lying around if it's hot - we work if there is work to do :D It was hot. Tara was either indoors or lying under a tree - sensible dog - her choice. Bramble was following us around all day, never sleeping, but placing his ball at (or just behind) our feet - just hoping that we would throw it for him :D He couldn't care less that it was nearly 30C - he just keeps on going, although he is 10. At intervals during the day Tara demands a game of ball - she couldn't care less that it is hot, just as long as she gets a game every so often. The rest of the time she is content to wait in the shade. Given the opportunity she would play ball all day :D My dogs only rest if there is nothing better on offer :D :D

So, yes - I certainly agree that no-one is the same :) :) But my dogs are the same as many others in that they are looked after well and loved :)

Daisy

Daisy

Very true Margot and Daisy :D :)

For me my dogs are a very important part of my life and are well cared for and greatly loved. But they are not the be all and end all of my existence, I do have other things in my life which can, and often do, take priority but never to the detriment of my dogs :)

They are always part of the equation of life but not the whole sum :)

We are all different but as long as our dogs are being well cared for both physically and mentally I don't think it matters two hoots to our dogs whether their life is different to another dog's :)

Why so sensitive? Who cares about those who berate others for using kennels or showing dogs, etc, etc, etc?  It's not worth thinking about.

Each person knows their own dog best, each person knows their situation best. 

If we truly believed we are doing the right and best thing, we would take it as a pinch of salt and it would slide like water off a ducks back.  :-)

Was having a little chuckle at this post. Totally agree with you some posts and responses far too serious and alot of people telling people what is and isn't acceptable.:rolleyes:

From working at the shelter in fact i have learnt that as long as a dog is well looked after and properly cared for then they are happy!

Unfortunatly some people believe that the way they look after their dogs is the only way it should be done. And NO other way is right :( :(
It would be boring if we all thought the same but pushing your own views onto someone else that thinks differently is below the belt LOL debate yes, saying they are wrong when it is just your opinion no!!!!
As long as the dogs are not being harmed physically or psycologically then there is no right or wrong way.
And NOONE has the right to tell anyone how to look after a dog that is well cared for and looked after.
Unfortunatly some people think that there way is right and everyone elses is wrong (NOT pointing any fingers I hasten to add!!!!)
But totally agree Margot :D
Lea :)

Here Here!

I went to a 3 day Ian Dunbar seminar whereby he stated dog training professionals are better at their job if they are normal human beings with other interests.
When he suggested you should even go for a walk without your dog sometimes, you should have heard the rediculous shock horror gasps thoughout the hall!

My legs don't work unless there is a dog next to them. :D

I agree Marianne! :-D

> My legs don't work unless there is a dog next to them. 

On the rare occasions I've gone out without a dog I keep worrying cos I feel like I've forgotten something important. :D

I feel guilty when I go walking somewhere my dog would love and don't have her with me.  she probably doesn't care though.

Wish they would run his training series on TV again.

Good post Margot. 

>Unfortunatly some people believe that the way they look after their dogs is the only way it should be done. And NO other way is right 

How true, those people wind me up more then any others.

We work hard for 50 weeks of the year and the dogs have a great life during that time, including their time at shows.  For 2 weeks a year we like to go on holiday, I refuse to be made to feel guilty for putting the dogs in kennels so we can have a quality break together.

Have to agree with you Sandrah, two weeks of the year I have a holiday without my woof and go abroad He goes on his own holiday to a pet sitter for two weeks and gets spoilt to bits however I do come in for critisim from fellow dog "friends" that I am being the selfish one ! My dog has the best life he could wish for, we have holidays twice a year with him.

> Wish they would run his training series on TV again.

So do I cos I've never seen it and I've heard him spoken highly of.

> Unfortunatly some people believe that the way they look after their dogs is the only way it should be done. And NO other way is right 

Urr yep, I've noticed that sometimes....

I think sometimes people feel that cos it wouldn't be right for them it's not right for their dog... (anthropomorphism, isn't it?). Well... my dogs like to gnaw on raw marrow bones, wouldn't be right for me :D but I'm pretty sure they enjoy it!

As long as the dogs are happy (or at least contented) with arrangements, that is I think what matters. But it is important to me to have other interests too. My life is  arranged round my dogs not devoted to them. ;) (and one person's view of that is different from another's too - my family would say my life IS devoted to them, whereas myself and I suspect other people would disagree).

So true Margot!
I love my dogs to bits, but they are treated like dogs!  We all need a break sometimes, even for just a few hours without the dogs.  We choose not to go on holiday (having 5 dogs I can't afford to put them in kennels and I know that at least 2 of them could not cope with kennels), but I will not have a go at anyone who chooses to go away for a week and kennel their dogs!  Every person and dog is different and has different sets of circumstances.
I love showing, but will only show the dogs that enjoy it.  Both my Belgians have decided they hate showing, so they stay at home.  I show both my Staffys, who love it (might not be as good quality as the BSDs, but so what. I'm not out for the glory, I go for the day out and socialising!).

Sarah.

Each to their own isnt it ;)

No one can dictate what someone should do, agree 100% with you Loki! :)

Far healthier to treat a dog like a dog and NOT a child or small furry person - for both dog and owner ;) but if it's what floats your boat ......  then it's only your business :)

Kennelled dogs are fine as long as the owner remembers they have a dog and give it daily walks and attention, unfortunately the kennelled dogs I've known have been lucky to see a person once a month apart from feeding :(  I'm sure this isn't the way everyone does it tho

  Both my Belgians have decided they hate showing, so they stay at home.

I miss seeing you at the breed shows! :( You'll have to get another one who likes showing! :D :D

As I said on the previous thread, it's easy to put people down because they don't take care of dogs the way that we would ourselves.  We are all different and everyone's relationship with their dogs are different.

When my children were young I didn't think I had the time in my life for a dog, but now they are all grown up and gone I have, and I do think I probably treat my dogs a little bit like 'little furry people'!  I don't think it right or wrong, but it suits me!  I would drop most things for my dogs, but I'd never put them before my OH, Children, and certain family members :rolleyes:
 

Yep. It is the same in the real world..kind of funny really. I now show folk who get grumpy as soon as you mention obedience and they rant on about what an unfriendly lot the obedience people are and oh how unnatural obedience is... and some obedience people do the same about show people and the agility people the same and then the gun dog lot.... and the pet people detest all the competitive sports and consider all the dogs involved are neglected and the competitive folk think the pet people pamper the dogs too much and are treated as children . Fortunately these people are a minority but they are funny!

It's quite nice to have a go at these activities just to get more insight and see how happy all the dogs are no matter how different their lives or even go watch them. And more insight into what is involved in preparing the dogs for the different type of events. So far I find most dog people are very friendly no matter where you are.

Anyway to show how different dogs can be one of mine has a nervous disposition in quiet country locations and so walking him in the country can be hard work encouraging him to relax but take him on the London Underground at rush hour and he is totally happy and relaxed.

Yep I ahve often ehard of extreme behaviour in soemof the otehr canien disciplines, liek dogs that are never allowed to play with other dogs, and only ever let out of their crates to train so they are completely focused on their owner to work better blah blah

I agree Margot. 

We're all different, deal with it :-D(In the words of Tracey, BB!)

I adore my dog, but sometimes, I like to do things without her *shock* so she's left in the kennels alone for a couple of hours a few times a week.  I wouldn't dare say that on a couple of forums I belong to for fear of being slated! 

Each to their own. 

yes but its all just rumour & speculation & often sour Grapes!!!!!!
You hear rumours of the show world that the dogs arent taken on walks incase they get dirty!!!! now i dont believe that as standard!!!!! :)

I do know people who keep their dogs in crates and don't walk them, but certainly mine are all out every day on walks, and at the weekend they all do long walks with my OH. If I could always take them on holiday I probably would, but it's not practical if you are going on a canal boat with 9 people, or going to Cyprus for 10 days, so we arrange for them to go to friends who dogsit them and treat them as part of their family, and they are very happy there. :-)

That is exactly what I mean the different areas of dogs ownership and sports in the UK are so fragmented and don't understand each other at all.

As you know Bryony who has done both and I have friends that were regular competitions in Obedience in bygone times I have no doublet that in all areas there are some people for whom the winning and competing is more important then the dogs.

If a dog doesn't enjoy showing there is no point showing it. I have a beautiful bitch who just doesn't enjoy the showring. I leave her at home. I can't see any point in spending £20 or more to enter her, only for her to stand in the ring with a black cloud of gloom hanging over her. As for dragging dogs around the show ring. I think any judge worth their salt might notice. The dogs that I do show thoroughly enjoy their day out and get wildly excited when they see me packing the show bag and loading the car. I think the kindest thing we can do for dogs is to treat them like dogs

I still cannot get my Head around how anyone can think it is OK to crate their dogs all day when they go to work.

On an American based breed list which has a lot of rescue people and people with rescue dogs.

This lady was writing about her first foster dogs and has two of her own.

This is an extract from her posting:

"Normal routine - up in the morn - let them out to go potty  first thing.  Fix
their food. Now I'm crating ***** as well as **** with  their bowls of food.  Go
take my shower - dry my hair.  Back into the  frontrm - *Oh good babies - you
ate all your food - lets go poopies*

They all line up at the door - ***** noses his way to the front - I  slightly
open the door - he wants to bolt - I close the door & say *wait*  (we had to
do this a few times - now as long as I say wait before I open the  door - no
probs).

Ok they're outside - I go back to the bathroom to start curling my  hair. 
After about every third curl - I race to the door to make sure all  is well
between the 3.  Back to the curling iron - fanatic barking - race  back to the
door - have no clue what they're barking at - even Logan is joining  in - oh wait
- there's a cat.  This goes on the whole time I'm getting  ready for work.  I
don't care if it's quiet or I hear something - every few  minutes I'm
checking.  Ok - I'm ready - call them all in - tell them to go  to their respective
rooms.  Close the crate doors - give them each a  milkbone & tell them to be
good boys & girls - watch Mommy's house -  Mommy's going to work.  Out the door.

Come home - let them out - same scenario - check them on them  constantly 
while I'm changing clothes - fixing supper whatever.  Call  them in - supper
time - same routine as morning.  Now they're all back  inside & I'm curled up on
the couch with a book.  Whoops - I only see  Thor & Sassy - where's Logan?...."

No mention of the dogs being taken for a walk morning or Evening.

Now my dogs are pretty laid back whilst in the house and lie around mostly between the odd game of rough and tumble and conserve their energy mostly for walks, but they do not stay in one place all day, they get up stretch have a drink lie find another spot tom lie in etc.

Thats such a sad life for the dogs. :(  What I don't understand is why foster or rescue dogs at all if thats all you can offer them? Surely the dog would be better left in the rescue kennels where they will have more space than a cage, and able to watch life go past until a better home could be found.

I don't own a cage, but do restrict pups to the kitchen until they are house trained. The kitchen is at least 50 times the size of a pup though, can't imagine leaving the poor souls in a cage only slightly bigger than them, and every day too :(

My dogs give the impression of sleeping all day, but only because they have a good off lead run morning and evening. Even then they will change sleeping spots many times during the day - from sofas to my bed to one of their  many, many beds :rolleyes: They'll also follow me from room to room, this womans poor dogs hardly see her

Edited to say, I assume this is a your breed too Barbara? I just can't imagine leaving a hound confined for so long. I know it's not fair on any dog but somehow I'd find it easier to swallow if it was a toy breed that maybe wasn't bred to be particularly active.

Ok, edited again to cancel the last line - not fair on any breed. My Mums cresteds were as active as our collies :)

In the USA and in this particular case the dog was to be PTS as they kill a very high proportion of the rescue intake.

Some authorities make very little effort to re home, and many pounds are there to hold the dogs to be reclaimed or PTS, in fact some only hold for about two days before euthanizing.

Breed rescues keep an eye on the kill shelters and get dogs out.  they need forster carers desperately especially as they loos so many through foster failure (the peopel end up keeping the foster).  I hope the new home this dog went to gives him a better lifestyle.

the other two dogs are her own and this was her first foster.  No-one commented it seems that this kind of lifestyle is normal for US canines.

Thankfully none of my friends or family even use crates so not everyone in the US lives like this. However, there does seem to be a much higher percentage of people who do crate their dogs all day there. My sister just took in a rescue who, at first, happily stayed in her crate at night to make sure she was OK (tiny shiba x chihuahua living with two labs) but now that she's tasted freedom she sleeps on the sofa in my sister's office. :) I can't imagine putting my two in a crate all day they would consider it a tortuous and miserable existence.

I am just flabbergasted that anyone could even consider crating a dog all day as being normal/routine/appropriate.

I know. I think anyone who does should sit in a small closet all day with no books, TV, radio, toilet - you get the picture. I don't think any of them would last an hour much less 8.

It is more likely to be 10 with travelling.

I was talking to a woman the other day who was walking her 2 dogs - she was amazed I gave the 2 Miniature Schnauzers the run of the house when I leave them. Her bigger  dog is left in the kitchen, the small one in a crate as she does not trust them together.

I can't see the point of having a dog if it's confined to a cage - why not get a hamster instead?

The bigger dog with the run of the kitchen is okay. :) Unless it's a really teeny-tiny kitchen! :D At the very least a dog should have the freedom of 10 times its body length and 5 times its body width. And if it's housetrained it must have access to the outdoors at no more than 4-hour intervals, preferable 2-3 hours. Anything less is akin to battery farming.

To put it bluntly, dogs are better off alone in rescue kennels with a bit of space than alone and crated in a 'loving' home.

>To put it bluntly, dogs are better off alone in rescue kennels with a bit of space than alone and crated in a 'loving' home.

Well said!

In the US it seems a crate is a necessary piece of equipment when buying a dog,like a water bowl,toys,leash and crate :rolleyes:

And you just can not tell them that what they are doing is cruel.The excuses you hear :rolleyes:

"If my house burns down,i would rather the fire fighters find my dogs in their crates,rather than anxious dogs running around,that would probably get an axe to the head.

"My dogs will kill eachother if left alone"

"My >8 year old< dog will destroy the house if left alone."

"My dogs are more settled in a crate,as the job of house guard has been taken away from them,so they can relax and not worry about it,and therefore not bark at every sound"

"My puppy isnt housebroken yet,so needs to be in a cage no bigger than a box so he wont soil his den"

"My dogs get my undivided attention at night and on weekends"

And on and on it goes :rolleyes:

But one thing they ALL say is that their dogs just love,love,love their crates and go running into them willingly

Another thing they have a problem with is walking dogs off lead,it just doesnt seem to happen.It seems every state has a leash law,and owners who walk their dogs off leash are seen as highly irresponsible

For once Ktee I agree with every word you said there. :D And the scary thing is, in the US a "crate" is a SOLID cage (airline crate) with just a wire door, not a CAGE like here!

Think we should start a campaign to infiltrate US boards and re-educate Americans on proper relationships with dogs :-D I may have to do some googling today ;-)

>Another thing they have a problem with is walking dogs off lead,it just doesnt seem to happen.It seems every state has a leash law,and owners who walk their dogs off leash are seen as highly irresponsible <

I was watching my two running across the open fields and felt very sorry for my sister's dogs. She lives in California and there aren't many places you can take a dog safely off-lead. :( She has a big garden (couple of acres) and a pool they swim in every day but it's not the same as running through the woods chasing bunnies :-D

>Another thing they have a problem with is walking dogs off lead,it just doesnt seem to happen.It seems every state has a leash law,and owners who walk their dogs off leash are seen as highly irresponsible mad mad

This is something that worried my friends greatly when they returned to the US earlier this year having lived here for the past 5 years and acquired their first dog whilst living here.  They now have to drive some distance to find a safe area where he can be off lead.  He is a large breed but very friendly and well behaved.  They say that Americans are so litigious (sp?) that they daren't risk letting him off lead in the local parks etc. :(

We go to the US a few times and see dogs walking off lead all nice and relaxed. So in some States it seems relaxed more than others.  It is a massive massive country  with only 5x the population of the UK...the UK is only the size of Florida. The USA has a huge diversity of people and traditions, and quite extremes of practices are acceptable over there when it comes to dog care.. from vey very very top rate to total neglect..I guess it is the same here really.

Some get round it by owning land or live in private housing areas where land is included within the site for the residents use...so for activities like walking dogs. They tend to have housing agreements when you buy the house laying down the rules..including maybe what size dogs and how many pets can be owned...if any.  They have the dog parks you can but membership of to exercise the dog of lead...like a toddler group  for dogs.

They say that Americans are so litigious (sp?) that they daren't risk letting him off lead in the local parks etc
but it's like that here now too. It can be very stressful taking a dog out for a walk... dogs are actually supposed to reduce stress! lol!

To put it bluntly, dogs are better off alone in rescue kennels with a bit of space than alone and crated in a 'loving' home.

As I mentioned on another thread, a dog of mine that was crated all the time in a previous home (not even allowed out regularly to pee by the look of it, as she was used to peeing/pooing in the crate and then sleeping in it) has as a result far MORE problems than our rescue dog that came from the council stray kennels.

To put it bluntly, dogs are better off alone in rescue kennels with a bit of space than alone and crated in a 'loving' home.

Having spent a lot of time in rescue kennels, I feel that most dogs need more human contact than is possible in these places.  Merely supplying a clean bed, food and exercise to me in a sad existence and no better than crating all day everyday with attention when the owner is at home.  Neither is a suitable way for a dog to live.

I agree with you all :D

Val - neither is a suitable or ideal way for a dog to live - but at least while it's in the rescue kennels it gets to watch people going past, and has a chance of a better home. These people who adopt dogs just to keep them confined to cages all day and all night are not doing the dog any favours in my opinion. From Brainlesses post it didn't appear that the dogs had a lot of contact with their owner at all, and if this is considered normal then I do think they're better off in the kennels.

The US view seems to be that they are better off with a restricted lifestyle than the altenative being dead, as the vast majority of dogs in rescue centres or dogs pounds will be put to sleep.

The US isnt exactly an animal friendly place anyway is it?

As you guys know we crate our girl for around 6/7 hours during the day but she has a long hours walk before hand and when I get home late evening she has another hours walk, being a SBT she needs it! and my OH usually comes home earlier then me so sometimes less then that even, so she is tuckered out and its a crate we use, not a cage. would never consider using a crate if she hadnt been throughly tuckered out and willing to go in.

I wouldnt dream of using their cages or keeping her crated for more then is absolutly nesscary.

People shouldnt cage dogs ALL day and all the time thats no life to lead.

a crate is a cage? People use the term crate because they think somehow it's nicer - I always reply and use 'cage' because that's exactly what it is.

Edited to add the Oxford ditionary definitions.

cage

  * noun 1 a structure of bars or wires in which birds or other animals are confined.

crate

  * noun 1 a slatted wooden case for transporting goods.

Now I don't know about the fabric ones but most people cages are cages :)

And the scary thing is, in the US a "crate" is a SOLID cage (airline crate) with just a wire door, not a CAGE like here!

Quoted from earlier post, thats what i was getting at, we 'crate' her not 'cage' her up with no room, we have one SBT in a crate big enough for a Newfoundland, so I think shes happy! :)
and a crate is nicer then a cage, it has water and food bowels and is much more like a doggy bedroom then a cage!