I bumped into a friend that I used to work with today, she has a  hound boy of around 2 years. Last time I saw her she was considering getting a companion for her boy because she works full time. Today she tells me that she has a bitch she got recently. She then went on to say that the bitch was due into season. I told her she was going to have her work cut out keeping them apart and keeping her entire boy quiet. She replied "I'm not going to try, I'm just going to let them get on with it" I said (thinking that the bitch was a pup), that she was too young to have a litter. She then informed me that the bitch was 2. I then said (thanks champdoggers), have you had both their health checks done? To which she answered "What health checks":rolleyes: I mentioned hipscoring and blood work off the top of my head because I haven't got a clue. Obviously she hasn't, I also asked if she had checked their pedigree's against each other to see if they gelled, (heard that somewhere), to which she replied to my horror, my bitch isn't pedigree or K.C. registered, but it is ok she looks healthy. She has invited me around for a cup of tea next week, and I would like to go armed with enough bad stuff to put this idea out of her head. IMO this would make her as bad as a puppy farmer. My bitch and dogs pedigree's would go well, but they are both castrated as I haven't got a clue about breeding and neither are shown. I really don't think it is fair to put a totally dependant pet through something you have no idea about yourself.
I am pleading with all you "In The Know Folk" to give me really strong arguments against this so I can relay them. My problem is I only now why I haven't done it not why people should/shouldn't do it and I tend to rant when I get on my soapbox. I had a really bad experience before I got my dogs with a puppy farmer and a puppy that died one week after I brought him home, and hate it when people do something similar.
Thanks in advance.

You could start by printing off the two "sticky" threads at the top of this board.

I wouldnt say it makes her as bad as a puppy farmer as shes not mass producing puppies which are holed up in unspeakable conditions and dont even see daylight, but she is defienitly irrisponsible for breeding 2 dogs that arent health checked etc.
Just point out that she may not be able to find homes for them all and have to keep some as they are not going to be puppies everyone is after and just explain the basics, you cant force her not to breed just try to put her off it by stating the obvious.
If she works you can tell her for a start she will need 8 plus weeks off!

Hi,  I think you may need to fill her in on the costs if things go wrong!  and of course the fact that she could lose her bitch and the horrors of lossing a whole litter, raising them by hand, and of course the stress of finding them new good homes.  A little bit of a reality check might do her good.  Maybe even quoting the fact that the local council will consider her a business if she makes any money of which then should would have to pay tax and provide her books.  That might scare her!  If not, all I can say is that you have tried your best and sometimes as much as we hate it we have no control over indescriminate breeding.

Breeders of this nature which constitute a high proportion of the producers of puppies overall do as much harm (often unintentionally) as the true puppy farmer.

Yesterday I ran into a woman who used to have a pair CKCS which she had several litters from.

She now has two Samoyeds, a male she got at 10 months and a few years alter a bitch who now at two has had her first litter.  she told me that some people had asked about hip scores and she told them she new nothing about that, but hers were not done.  These pups were sold for £650, no health tests no pedigree knowledge and her own two dogs so little outlay.

She didn't even understand why her bitch was so out of coat, and her husband thought she needed feeding up as she looked scrawny, but in fact she was a bit plump just scruffy and coatless.

Now the bitch was smaller than my Elkhounds, the dog looked about correct size.

I pointed out politely that she shouldn't even be breeding if she didn't know about health etc, she looked at me as if I was out of my head.

Now someone like this doesn't see anything wrong with the way she is breedign.  Seh won't ahve another litter for maybe two years so thinks wshe is beign perfectly OK taking a couple of litters from her pets.  I bet they were rered with great care (but little knowledge).

Not only 8 weeks off but what happens if she cannot sell all the puppies? Thats more time off to look after the puppies, who will be growing and eating more and more.

If any are found to have a health problem and she has not done any health checks she may well find that the puppy owner has the right to sue her under the Sale of Goods Act. I know of breeders who have been fined £3,000 plus costs and had to refund the purchase price to the puppy buyer of the puppy. Plus the buyers got to choose whether they wanted to keep the pup or return it to the breeder.

As well as what the others have said ...

Don't know what breed it is (I assume you could mention it, as you're trying to stop them being born rather than looking to sell them?), but hounds tend towards large litters. You could check on average numbers of puppies and have a look at some selling sites to see if there are plenty of people 'stuck' with large numbers of puppies past the 8 week stage.

If there are, this might strike some fear into her heart at the thought of four or five of them running around eating her out of house and home at four months.

M.

Yep they are not the easiest type of dogs to find the Right homes for either, so she could easily have pups sticking for months.

Usually tends to put people off if they know they wont be able to sell the puppies.
If you cant put her off breeding the puppies make sure she is at least prepared for them and has everything she will need for them and the dam, as not to make her self a cruel breeder who is unprepared for them to arrive (IE puppy farmer type)
If you cant hinder the breeding then help her prepare to the best she can so the puppies can have a comfy upbringing with no stress on them or the dam best of a bad situation should the worst happen I suppose. :rolleyes:

You could tell her from one who has a gundog breed keen on producing litters of 14 about those litter numbers, maybe having to supplement because of litter size, weak puppies, Caesarians for the last few to be born, the costs of feeding mum extra good quality food, pup's weaning food, the cost of feeding them each week (I went through 20kg  of puppy food a week besides all the extras on top of that), Vet Bed, the amount of newspapers you'll need, the mess and destruction a litter can cause, whelping box, puppy panels etc.

Problems with neighbours complaining about noise of screaming pups when Mum refuses to feed them any more, waking at dawn, playing loudly.

If she is working full time she will have to take at least a week of before the pups are due and then until they are sold at 8 weeks, if she is lucky to get them away at 8 weeks,  as they cannot be left all day.

LOL

Oh the JOY!! of 4 or 5, 16 week old puppies eating and pooping for Britain and wrecking the house and garden - and as above they aren't quiet either!  and they would all have to be inoculated by then too :D :D :D

Let's look at the time scale here - today is August 9th and the owner says that the bitch is due in season "soon" - so let's assume that she comes into season at the beginning of September, and is mated midway through September (don't forget - the owner is going to "just let them get on with it").

If we assume a 63 day pregnancy this would result in puppies born around mid-November - and which would not be able to leave the mother until beginning of January - AFTER Christmas.

Now then - is she really set up for a houseful of 5 week-old pooping machines over Christmas?      People don't generally have much money left after Christmas for life's little luxuries like badly-bred puppies - and if the weather turns nasty, the owner won't be able to let them out into the garden when she cleans up after them - and she could well have a houseful until the end of February .....if she hasn't tried to dispose of them via Rescue by then :(

Margot

I have very little knowledge of breeding dogs, but how about sitting down with her in a friendly manner and helping her to write her 'pre birth' shopping list?

Once she realises how much she will have to pay up front before the pups are even born, she may think twice.

Mind you, that's assuming she will do things properly in terms of buying the right equipment, I tried to explain to an acquaintance how much breeding could cost, but they still went ahead and did it anyway 'on the cheap' so to speak, a homemade whelping box, loads of free newspaper, and the cheapest food they could get. Luckily they have spayed the bitch now so as not to have another litter, they hadn't anticipated the hard work :rolleyes:

Claire

Thanks for everyone's replys, this is a subject I feel very strongly about and I didn't want to risk going in guns blazing with not enough info on the subject myself. I will print off both sticky threads, I will also plan a shopping list with her, I have a really expensive pet pharmacy book banging around somewhere that I may take. I also wondered whether it may be a good idea to buy her a book on breeding which is intended to prepare people, if it covers all the bits mentioned here then that may work. However, I would hate for it to encourage her. I may see if I can contact someone who has her breed to get some facts from them about litter size and cost. There is no possible way she can take time off work as she has just started a management training program and will lose her place on it if she does, (you need to prove you are commited). The other thing I thought, but I don't know if I dreamt it or not, was that a breeding pair should be supervised in case either get a bit fed up with it and get nasty. I don't know where this idea came from. Can they also cause damage if they try to move from each other whilst tied? Like I said, I am an absolute novice and I know that some of my ideas are worst case senarios (sp) but I can't bear the thought of saying nothing and something happening that I could have warned her about. I think the route to go down is money, she thinks this will make her money and doesn't want to spend too much so that will be my first point of attack. Thanks guys.

Of course wolves / foxes etc do mate unsupervised and get on with it, but it's certainly my understanding that dogs with planned matings are supervised and assisted. Certainly in my small breed you need 2 people, one to hold the bitch and one to aim the dog. Otherwise yes, the bitch may panic and bite the dog, if they struggle to get apart when tied it can cause damage and trauma to both. If she can't take time off work when the puppies are born she risks the bitch dying if they are problems, she risks the bitch lying on the puppies and smothering them, try asking her how she'd like to come home to a box full of dead puppies and frantic mother! :-(

The bitch can also panic if pups get distressed through heat or other cause and kill them.

LOL last litter I had 6 years ago I made a £1500 loss.

I'm now having my next litter and already I have spent not including stud fee £456,
I still have a few more bits to get and I have obviously got my puppy pen from last time.
So there are a few pieces that I haven't spent out on this time...and the puppies aren't even here yet!

Depending on how handy her OH is, a 3ft by 3ft wooden whelping box for materials has set me
back £40 without pig rails etc. Then we already have some bolts/hinges etc that I didn't need to buy.

If she can't take time off to look after her litter she could expect to pay upwards of £100 per week for someone
to come in instead. Bearing in mind she will have the pups for at least 8 weeks that's going to cost £800 minimum.

I've already had £70 vets bill included in the above £456, but what if the bitch needs a ceasarian that will cost!
It vary's from vet to vet and at what time of day/weekend etc it is needed. So ring round some of the local vets
to see what one could cost.
Also when pups are born some breeds have their dew claws removed and this will be a cost to factor in too.
Again check with vets for cost per pup.

Then there's feeding of mum, once in the latter stages of pregnancy she'll need a higher grade food with more calories etc.
Plus feeding of mum and pups afterwards. The list can go on and on...

As for books - The book of the bitch is a really good read.

Yes mating dogs can 'damage' each other if not properly supervised etc. Especially if both dogs are 'maidens' meaning they've
never been bred from before.

Good Luck with trying to persuade your friend!

Not only must the breeding pair be supervised but so must the bitch not be left at all the week before her due date and pups need to be watched almost constantly until their eyes are open, after that they need to be fed four to six times a day not to mention cleaned up after constantly, you cannot possible do this whilst working.

She will need to take at least 10 weeks or more if pups don't sell by 8 or 9 weeks.  What planet is she on?

A litter is almost constant slog, and the work gets harder the older pups get, with them requiring more and more individual attention.

Can they also cause damage if they try to move from each other whilst tied?

YES! You can tell her my story. My first litter was an accident, as I very foolishly did not split the dog and bitch up early enough. They tied at the bottom of the garden, the bitch tried to run away, and both she and the dog got injured because of this. The poor dog was bleeding for days. It meant a vet trip a 10 pm, out of hours of course, and a couple of hundred pounds.

Last time I had a bitch mated it took 3 people to hold her as she wanted to move away when tied.

I also ahve a bitch that becoems a bucking bronco during the tie even though ready for mating.  I ahve ahd bitches to stud who have been eager to mate become very upset during the ties and needed holdign so they didn't roll over or pull away and damage the dog and themselves.

Can you say what breed, I know that with soem of the large sighhounds that they are not easy to mate and have quite low libido.

I originally put the breed in, but admin edited it out. I have p.m.ed you.

Well the need to supervise bitch almost constantly for several weeks (probably four) woudl be imperative with this breed if she wants live pups.  Accomplishing a mating with two maidens may also pose difficulties.

well I have some small input here. I do not class myself as a breeder. We decided to ease ourselves into the world of breeding by mating our two hounds (and before anyone shouts, we had the dog first, and an opportunity presented itself to obtain the bitch last year as she was not thriving in kennels...initially no intention to mate but she has well and truly blossomed...) anyway, the plan was, they mate but the bitch would go to a nearby experienced breeder to whelp, but I would be there as much as possible for the hands-on experience and to learn the ropes, we would pay for all costs plus an agreed fee for the breeder....not a bad plan we thought...
6 days before our girl actually had her pups she was taken round, with her food etc etc..I was quite upset leaving her but knew she was in good hands. About 3 hours later we got a frantic call from the lady, who had fallen in the yard and had to go to hospital....so back we went to collect her (she was most happy to be back at home mind :rolleyes: ) Anyway, the lady had fractured her lower back and couldn't take her to whelp, this is a large breed, and I fully understood!!
So mad panic, we had not prepared for this scenario....on the internet, bought a whelping box and paid for fast delivery, ordered shredded paper, heat pad, Book of the Bitch, extra food....prepared a room (luckily we have the space)....
she started whelping on Monday 30th, 2 live born, 2 stillborn, and seemed to be taking ever such a long time, on the phone constantly with breeder for advice, at 11pm call emergency vet who attends, gives her injection as she is not contracting and we know she was scanned with at least 10 pups...stays 30 mins and then decides she must have a c-section, so he takes her 20 miles to the surgery and I wait for news. She has a further 8 pups by c-section and due to bleeding is spayed as well. 1 of the live home born pups is PTS due to breathing problems, and we lost another pup 2 days later... the vet bill was over £1000.
Myself and my husband both work full-time shifts. We have both re-arranged our shifts to provide 24/7 cover for pups right up to 12 weeks, and used the majority of our annual leave entitlement.
We are both run down and tired, and still spending on outdoor/indoor pens as pups grow/worming treatments etc.
Since the pups were born I have spent 2 nights in my own bed, the majority of days and nights on the floor in the study.
Oh, and we still have 4 other adult dogs to see to as well.

So what I'm basically trying to say....if I had known that we would have had to have done all this, I WOULD NOT have started down the road...tell her this story, cos this is not easy!! She will need money, a helluva lot of time, a support network, an understanding employer, a strong constitution (I have lost nearly a stone in weight) and above all an ability to smile in the face of adversity

and that's before she thinks about advertising/selling etc  

ours are 12 days old now, the 8 we have are thriving and I am learning everyday. It has certainly been an experience, and it ain't over yet....just waiting for eyes to open, then gettin ready for the walking/weeing/pooing machines to take over!!!

well, now hubby has come home, time for my shower, go shopping, get something for our tea...........:rolleyes:

Thanks to everyone who has replied. My husband says it is none of my business and I should keep my nose out. Unfortunately in this case I feel I can't. I am a strong believer in making educated decisions and I also feel that animals are defensless and we must make the decisions for them. Stuff like breeding should never be undertaken blindly, which I feel in this case it is. I know everyone has to start somewhere, but look into it properly first. The sad fact is that her original breeder (the boys breeder) seemed a bit clueless to me. She had bred the litter so her pet bitch wouldn't pine :rolleyes: I don't even know what that means. The lady I got mine from is excellent, very informative and supportive and breeds for the right reasons, not for money or anything unscrupulous. She is always on hand and knows her stuff. She is the reason that I looked into these things more closely whenI first got my dog. I think that if your breeder is good then you have a better idea of what a good breeder should be (if that makes sense). I have been in touch with a friend who had these dogs years ago and we are going to compile a list for me to take and some mating and puppy rearing guidelines. Fingers crossed it puts her off. I will keep you posted, Thanks again.

Breeding to make money The worst kind.
How could she think she wouldnt need to take at least 10 weeks plus of work? Money makes people blind as the saying goes.

I would try my hardest to stop her from breeding and I think you should have a pat on the back for trying, need more people like you who are vigilant about bad 'breeders'. If I was in the same situation I would do the same, Hope you manage to put her off and please do keep us posted.

I do not class myself as a breeder.

Whether you breed one litter or 100 litters you are still a breeder.   You have bred a litter from whatever animal you own so it makes you a breeder, just some people breed more frequently than others.  I've only bred 3 litters in 19 years but it still makes me a breeder.

Sorry...didn't mean it to sound like that - just trying to say that I have no experience, and hoping that my perspective might be useful.....

either way, I hope she makes the right decision, and whatever she decides, I hope she has someone knowledgable to guide her, it's a BIG responsibility bringing pups into the world, and they rely on us for everything.

Tell them Pepsi's horror story. Emergency cesarean, one pup out of four dead, sutured from chest to bits as womb all twisted up (hence the ceaser' )and vet had a nightmare job to get pups untwisted, one pup with badly kinked tail due to womb twist, then she haemorraged, fluid and blood pumped into every available vein, cardiac arrest on the table, there is no sight worse than seeing your girl "dead" on the operating table, vet managed to revive, then she was very poorly for days and the pups needed her, she was a brilliant mum even when feeling so ill, Then the bill arrived on the doorstep...over two thousand pounds!! Not to mention the stud fee of £500, then the continuing care, food for Mum and pups, registration, one pup sold cheaply because of tail and one pup kept. Not a lot of profit there then!!! No doubt a novice litter, no stud fee, easy birth, quick sales of pups, cheap food, no registrations, no worming and a nice fat profit in the bank account will encourage her to do it again and again...that would be sod's law!!! Now I just enjoy Pepsi's company every day, we nearly lost her and she is a lucky girl to be with us still. Thanks to a brill vet! Now I have her mad daughter to cope with...love her
Nothing you will say or do will alter Joe Public's view that there is money to be made out of breeding dogs. They are always the last to see the pit falls the careful conscientious breeders fall into with amazing regularity.
Aileen

I'm still hopefully going ahead, done all my reading including horror stories, got a nice bitch (great temperament and fairly successful at shows), done health checks, got good stud dog lined up, got everything ready, even got some puppy enquiries! But certainly it does seem like the only good reason to breed might be what Dearlady said about losing a stone in weight which I could certainly do with!! :-D

Slimming World's less bother LOL

and much less stressful :D

:-D :-D

Well I spoke to her today, gave her a list of equipment she would need, (with exagerrated prices), told her about the time off she would need and the active role she would need to take. I also told her about every worst case senario I could think of. I covered everything that has been mentioned here. She said, "maybe I just wont bother, I could do with a quiet life, Maybe I will get her spayed". However, this did not sound convincing as shortly after she mentioned that her son wants a puppy :rolleyes: She is going to talk to her partner to see what he thinks, so I am not holding my breath because he is a bit of a plonker They both work full time, so here's hoping something stuck. I am seeing her again soon, so I will let you know.

Hi Stann

Have you warned her that if she sells a pup and it later develops a condition such as HD or an eye condition (for which the parents could have been checked) and she hasn't had the parents screened, she would in all probability be deemed to be liable by a court and have to pay out all sorts of costs???

Carina (crossing everything that it's not my particular hound breed!!)

Not your breed ridgielover. I forgot to tell her that. I might give her a call over the weekend and add that snippet of info. I think money is the route to go down as that is what she complains about the most. It angers me that people don't even bother to look into things properly. I did, hence both mine are spayed/neutered. I also have a problem with this particular friend as on more than one occassion I have cut her boys nails because they were far too long and she "Cant do it" so how is she going to cope with a bitch in whelpThere I am on my soapbox again, sorry can't help it it just makes me mad. I think she thought she may come home in a few months time to a perfect litter and then 8 weeks after that she would sell them, end of:rolleyes: I hope that some of what I have said sinks in.

Tell her much cheaper and far less stressful to buy a puppy than breed it yourself ;)
But if they are both working full time not really fair getting a puppy.