Just a general question , do you think breeders in general should learn more about genetics?

My husband often says the things I come out with make me sound like Hitler :-D  I, only in the last few years got my head stuck in to do some more reading about genetics and modes of inheritance etc but what  I have learned ( which isn't loads :-) ) I think is very interesting.

I often hear people generalise about how things are transported and often wonder if they have every actually done any studying on it..

Anyone?  :-)

I try, I really try but it is a very difficult subject! :) so I tend to opt to take the safe option, if there is any possibility of something lurking I just don't take a chance and leave it to those who understand things better to take any risks that might also bring joy.

http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/cathy/alifepets/genetics1.htm

I keep laughing at this one. the drawings get you more complicated than had they used a symbol :-D

That link is great Blue - I've just learnt more about genetics than I could have ever hoped, all the time laughing at the little biro cartoon people :-D

I would have thought a basic knowledge of genetics would be essential for breeders - they would need to know all of that stuff (note the technical terms here) about dominant and recessive genes etc, to determine which traits they wanted to breed into or out of a line.

Claire

Some yes.

I'm very lucky in that my breed mentor is a prof of genetics.
But I still learn lots from books and ask him lots of questions :D

What an interesting question. I'm not a breeder but worked as a cytogeneticist (and now market genetic imaging systems) for years. I just assumed that to breed you would need a sound knowledge of genetics and inheritance. If I stop and think about it most breeds were created long before Watson and Crick started playing swizzle sticks with ladders :-D

What use does a thorough knowledge of genetics in breeding dogs help with though? 

I openly admit I have read very little to do with genetics even in my own breed but I don't think it's made me a 'ignorant' breeder.

You should have read my second sentence Christine or was it to veiled? W&C discovered the structure of DNA in 1953 so the point I was making was that people managed to create breeds without modern genetics. I never called anyone ignorant. However, I would think that knowing some basics about dominant and recessive genes and inheritable traits is necessary to some extent. You probably know a lot about it already but perhaps just not the jargon.

You probably know a lot about it already but perhaps just not the jargon

I think thats probably the sentence that would sum up a lot of breeders. If you know your breed well, and know what traits are strong in which lines, and what traits stud dogs pass on to different bitches etc thats the important stuff. Knowing  what homozygous or heterozygous means doesn't really matter I wouldn't think?

I think thats probably the sentence that would sum up a lot of breeders. If you know your breed well, and know what traits are strong in which lines, and what traits stud dogs pass on to different bitches etc thats the important stuff. Knowing  what homozygous or heterozygous means doesn't really matter I wouldn't think?

How would you know this information if someone else didn't understand it.?

Just thinking if you had a 10 generation line of champion bitches then a problem arises , you don't want to lose the line.. who do you call? what do you do?  ( don't say ghost busters ;-)

You have a champion bitch that has had a litter no problem , you then get a problem what do you do? spay her,  do trial and careful mating again or just ignore it and carry on?

>a problem arises , you don't want to lose the line.. who do you call?

That would rather depend on the problem arising.  You might use your network within the breed if it was something like colour genetics, you might use the health committee of your breed club if it was a more serious issue with health implications or you may post on CD! :)
I think if we limited breeding to only those that had a higher level of understanding of this subject we might create more difficulties than it solved :)

I think if we limited breeding to only those that had a higher level of understanding of this subject we might create more difficulties than it solved :-) totally agree but just wondered if people did take an interest. the very basics is reasonably understandable ( I stress reasonably) ..

Yes but people still had a reasonably valid idea about inheritance even if it wasn't at the molecular level, I think we are talking practical genetics here, mode of inheritance stuff.

Yip practical stuff.. mode of inheritance etc   Recessive, polygenetic, dominant etc the very basics Ie " is my dog/bitch involved "

I wasn't really meaning thorough knowledge just some and some interest in it..

Some breeds are lucky and at the moment have little health problems, in these senarios people often don't worry as their breed and lines are unaffected.   What happens when they current small % of a problem suddenly rise, then there is only a small gene pool so no easy way out..

What made me think about it was 2 things,

Someone said to me that they noticed a particular thing on a puppy and dismissed it , 5 years later they found out it is a reccessive trait. It won't affect the health it is more cosmetic and not inline with the breed standard , it does often get worse.

I also heard whilst sitting in company at an open show one day someone criticising a stud dog because they had gotten a X affect pup in the litter. The person totally dismissed the fact the bitch also had to contribute to it. Even going on to say when the question was raised that it didn't have to be both parents.  I didn't know myself as it wasn't a thing I have heard about in my breed but when I had a little look on line it was a trait from both.

It just got me thinking :-)

Great topic!  I have just finished a course with the Open University in Human Genetics and Health Issues.  It was really really interesting and opened my eyes to a lot of new stuff.  It is heavy going though but I thoroughly enjoyed it and would like to delve further into it and am now looking to do another OU course on the same subject. :)

However, I dont breed but would think that yes some knowledge is helpful, (maybe when trying to eliminate an undesired feature perhaps)

Yes I do think that breeders should at least have a passing understanding of genetics. Otherwise how else can they attempt to breed out conditions (or preferably prevent them from occuring in the first place) if they don't know how they are inherited. Unfortunately though, some just don't seem to care :(

Well ever breeder must know tat putting X and Y together will produce Z but putting Y and Y together could end up equeling M

However I don't think breeders need have a degree in genetics! 

I must admit I loved the breed genetic seminar one of the aussie clubs did afew year back by bringing over someone from the states who keeps a very close eye on genetics with aussies.  I learn't so much that day just by sitting and listening. 

Yes I do think that all breeders should have a basic understanding of genetics.  How often do we hear "The Sire and Dam are OK!" :(

Funny I mentioned to someone at training tonight this thread and boy did I open a can of worms.

This couple have been breeding for 10 years. No champions but certainly CC winners in a few litters.   In the discussion they told me that one of their bitches had 3 litters, 2nd litter produced a puppy with  Trait X  but the other 2 litters clear.  The Trait was a recessive trait.
I tell you they will go to their graves fighting that bitch is clear and it was the stud dogs fault and his fault only .  "They had heard of other puppies sired by this dog with the same trait" :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:   I tried to explain that the dog/bitch must meet a carrier and the carriers lie silent.  I knew not to push it and just left it at that.

" heads in the sand" sprung to mind. 

It's funny how the stud dog is always blamed if something bad crops up in his progeny, but is also the one to get the praise if he sires a fantastic litter. It takes two to tango!

Blokes...get given all the grief but make sure they get the glory! :D

totaly agree with you two tango,

is both the dam/sire genes that causes a problem.

Unless it is a dominant trait or sex linked.  One would hope that an animal affected with a serious negative trait wouldn't be bred from, but some problems are not apparent in the animal's youth.

I'd say until a person has at least a smattering of knowledge of genetics they're in no position to start breeding anything. There's so much information available to them, via breed clubs, books, the internet etc, which is often written in very simple terms, that there's no excuse for not having a passing knowledge of what they're trying to do and how to go about achieving it. There's no need for degree-level knowledge, but otherwise they're just playing Russian roulette with the puppies and their breed, and are no better than those who churn out pups for the money.

Should breeders learn more? Yes, of course. There's always more to learn, and knowledge is never wasted.

Don't think anyone should be breeding any livestock until they have a sound grasp of genetics.

In my Rabbit breeding days I had several books on the subject and colour inheritance I found fascinating.

Just a little question.  Who's breed clubs have a genetics sub committee or similar? 

In red and whites, way back, the only club back then set up a genetics sub committee, where a group of people, with intrest in the topic and breed could gain all the information from hip and eye tests, to raising money for DNA tests etc.  The secretary of the sub committee can talk for days on the subject within our breed, the nicest thing is if you want to know something in simple terms she will tell you.  Information and finds are posted to members of the breed club regulary and everyone then can help out with their bit.

we have a health commitee for the fcr. a good one at that too,

any problems that rise they will look into it.