I have so been enjoying the dogs new feeding regime. No more complete and a lovely selection of raw meat, fish, eggs yoghourt etc. However, the calcium-phosphorus ratio is panicking me a bit. Just how important is it? I notice that meats from AMP state that they are good BARF foods, yet the pack states that only 5% bone is retained for calcium. Using the researched method of calc-phos that I've read about on BARF sites, that seems too low. Also, by my calculations (not necessarily accurate :rolleyes:) I am reckoning that I would need to feed about 1lb of rmb per day. This seems very high (the dogs are GSD about 30-35K - 1 bitch 1 dog), and doesn't seem to leave much room for anything else.

I have now fed lamb necks twice, but they still scare me a bit. I've ordered some turkey necks and more wings (thank god for wings)

Can I ask what you guys do/think?

Thanks
Kat

With chicken wings they get the correct ratio of bone/calcium/meat.  I rarely feed meat without bone, and I don't count all the phosphate thing either.  I feed approx 65% rmb's and 35% combination of veg/fruit/yoghurt/raw eggs/offal etc

I find lamb breast and selections of lamb bones from the butcher are ideal too, and so are whole chickens.  Some fish including head and innards

I follow Ian Billinghurst and feed the veg and fruit to which I add vit C, E, Kelp, brewers yeast, garlic & flax seed oil  all pulped and mixed together.

Occasionally pilchards, cottage cheese and tuna are the only foods they have which are not raw.

Some people don't do the fruit and veg.  It's finding something that suits your dog.

I get all the dogs meat and bones from my butcher so I know exactly what they are getting.

Adult dogs need approximately 2% of their weight per day and pups approx 10%

Maria :)

I feed much less bone than MariaC does because it suits my dog better. I feed between 30 - 50% raw meaty bones with the empthasis on meaty, 10% offal and the rest made up from muscle meat. I don't feed any supplements at all apart from the odd clove of garlic which is meant to help prevent fleas and seems to be working so far. Twice a week I feed a whole egg (complete with shell) and give tinned pilchards once a week as part of the boney meal or fresh fish if I get to the harbour at the right time of day :D

If you google for BritBarf the person who runs the site has an incredible in-depth knowledge of the subject and I am sure he will be able to help you out with your question - he seems to know where to find  the answer to any scientific question that you could ever possibly want to know the answer to with regard to nutritional requirements for dogs :)

Have just re-read your post :) My dog weighs 33kg and he is fed 700g per day split into 2 meals. The first meal is nearly always muscle meat or tripe and is around 400g in weight - this may include minced meat which contains 5% bone. His evening meal is made up of around 70g of offal and the rest is raw meaty bone, such as chicken wings, chicken legs or quarters, raw or tinned fish, breast of lamb, turkey necks etc. The quantities vary slightly from day to day depending on the weight of the RMB I am feeding that day. Eggs are fed as an addition and I don't adjust the other food accordingly.

When I first started raw feeding I used to make up each day's food in the correct ratios to make sure I had everything covered but now I am more at ease with it I balance the diet out over a period of about a month. So I might not feed offal for a few days but then feed say 200g at one go - I usually do this if I am feeding a largish bone that day. The quantities also can vary from day to day but balance out over the month. If I have a large bone item such as very large chicken quarter I would feed the whole quarter and then just feed a bit less the next day so  700g a day is my rough guide to the amount that suits him but might feed 800g one day and 600g the next.

Raw feeding can be very fluid and you will eventually find the regime that suits you and your dogs - probably not exactly the same as someone else does it but tweaked to suit the individual dog.

Starting out can be quite daunting but it does get easier as you get more accustomed to feeding raw. I always think back to the dogs of my childhood who were healthy and fit on a diet of table scraps, biscuit mixer and the odd raw bone - and know my dog is getting a far more balanced diet than they did :)

Kat check out http://www.rawdogranch.com if you cant find the answers to your questions there,the site owner is always happy to help.

The callcium:phosphoros ratio is quite important however most people assume that all calcium comes from bones in a raw diet and it does not if you feed veggies, yoghurt and eggs for example

FWIW one of my dogs has more than 1lb of rmb a day the other more like 4lb the latter is a GSD.

4lb
Is there ever a situation where an excess of calcium causes harm? I know for growing pups it will, but what about excess calcium in the diet generally?

Does anyone know what the 'rmb' equivalent of giving a whole egg including shell is, as I understand this is the purest form of calcium. I have a little trouble with the rmb with my youngest GSD as he has corneal lipid dystrophy (collection of fat deposits in his eyes) and so I try to limit his fat intake. This is really hard with rmb, esp chicken wings because of the skin. Have you ever tried to skin a chicken wing? :rolleyes: Although, having said that, I haven't seen 'smears' in his eyes for quite some time now. So you see it is a little more difficult for him and I want him to have a great diet (kibble is gone forever )

Any help, advice, menus welcome. I have looked at some of the links and they are brilliant thanks

Kat

Yes too much calcium is harmful and should not be added to your dogs food.

Excess calcium is a problem with puppies but not so with adult dogs - have pm'd you. :)

If given in the form of bone it can cause constipation, which can itself be a problem. I'm lead to understand that the calcium:phosporus ratio is very important, even in adult dogs.

Without wanting to confuse or disagree with other posts, here is what Ian Billinghurst says:

Supplementing a dog's diet with minerals can be extremely hazardous.  The 2 main ones appear to be calcium and phosphorous.

In the case of a puppy the results can be instantly disasterous causing skeletal, growth and skin problems.  In older dogs the problems can take longer to develop but it is not uncommon for many arthritic, skin and internal problems be a direct result of a lifetime of mineral imbalance.

He goes onto say the above could be from
a)  poorly formulated commercial pet food diet
b)  poorly formulated home made diet
c)  and /or indiscriminately supplemented with minerals particularly calcium.

Bones, on the other hand he advises are the only logical way to get a correct mineral balance. Chicken and lamb being the best as these are the youngest bones therefore the softest.

Other diatary elements to supply your dog with the correct mineral balance include foods such as fresh green leafy veg, variety of fresh meats, dairy products such as yoghurt, cottage cheese and for young pups goats milk, seafoods, eggs, brewers yeast, kelp and small amounts of whole grain food.

Maria :)

Too much calcium causes a dog to over heat. It is linked to Hot spots on some terrier breeds.  Westies are prone to Eclampsia so it is always great giving them a dose of Calcium but it clearly says on the bottle on half does for wire coated breeds. 

Thanks for all replies. My problem (or not) is that I am a 'thinker' and read and consider everything when I have a bee in my bonnet. At the moment I am questioning whether or not there is a flaw in BARF and prey model diets. If carnivores have a complete carcass, of whatever lets say a deer, the muscle/organ meat ratio to bone must surely be more meat than bone, I don't know what percentage but there is much more meat than bone, and a lot of that meat is muscle meat. Certainly I would anticipate some of the smaller bones would be eaten, but large bones likely would not, reducing the equation even further. BARF guidelines are mainly rmb's making up around 60% of food intake, some organ meat and veg. Also, when this level of bone is fed it would appear that there is excess calcium in the diet, evidenced by the chalky waste, which indicates the body getting rid of excess calcium. Very few predators in the wild are designed to consume large amounts of bone, in fact the only one I can think of is the hyena, which is designed for this purpose have amazing jaw pressure to be able to eat the remains (mostly bone) that other animals leave on a carcass.

Even if we look at dogs eating say rabbit, and consuming the whole thing, the ratio of bone must be much much less than 60%. Please don't take this as an 'offensive' against BARF, it isn't, I am trying to feed the best diet I can, which is most certainly not processed foods any longer, but I do need to be able to see and agree with the principles of a regime. Whilst I agree with most of it I do have this question about the level of bone consumption.

Talking of rabbits, does anyone know of a source where I could buy whole rabbits ?

Thanks
Kat

BARF as per Billinghurst's diet would seem to me to have a much higher proportion of bone in it than I would personally feed.

The raw diet that I feed has a much lower percentage of bone entirely :)

Kat,
This any good to you..
Nutritional content Egg (including shell)
There are varients though, as the studies between Battery and pastured Hens have shown in nutritional content of eggs.
:)

Thanks Huskygal
But this table is excluding the shell(thought the calc value very low)
Harley - Glad to know someone else thinks the bone ratio may not be right too. Do you follow a 'recommended' diet, or have you just adjusted it yourself to what you think is right?

Thanks
K

Urrgh! :p sorry!! that'll teach me to check before I copy and paste I had it in my favourites under that heading so didnt think to check!
I know I have it somewhere I'll pop back when I find it (it was a comparison chart of free range/ battery hen eggs)

Have you thought about going to a large reference Library? I know that when Im on one of my 'Bee in my bonnet' drives I always resort to the books and clinical studies (<- which is sometimes a bit mind numbing but are easier to find, I think, than on the internet) I find the internet can be a false phrophet sometimes ;)
Also seek out some of the old school breeders, especially in Europe ( and the language thing can be fun as Im finding out.. I speak to a German lady in Norwegian, as her English isnt great and my neither is my German, but our emails tend to mixtures of all 3!)

I feed Raw and modify (as my 2 are sedentary) what my father taught me and his Father taught him (etc etc) I dont feed a High ratio of RMB and am confident in the generations of dogs my fathers side of the family produced (Farmers/ Hunters and Fur trappers in Norway working with Sled dogs and hunting dogs) I was mindful that just because "thats the way we've always done it" didnt nescessarily mean it was the best way....but the more people I meet in my breed (and other sled dog breeds),the more I know its right for my dogs...I have a friend for example who used to have a working Siberian kennel  and is Director at Washington University wild canid centre, who is a staunch advocate of bones for recreation. (If your interested I have some good articles she has written I can scan and email to you?) It was her who reminded me once of the Polar expeditions...Why Ammundson succeeded.. all down to Nutrition!! So us Norwegians knew more than we realised :) from then on Ive always listened to my Grandfather :D

Thanks Huskygal

When I'm on an information jag, I am insatiable, so would be very happy to read anything you can send me. I like to gather all info and make my own considered decision on things. I agree that the internet can be 'a false prophet' what a good description. I still read it all though and filter out the extremists and nutters along the way. I have read opinions of those who maintain a wild wolf pack in captivity what they think of feeding rmbs, and it was a very interesting read. As you say, they provide plenty of raw meat as large parts of a carcass, but bones are mostly recreational - behavioural enrichment rather than a food source.

Many of the eggs I use are from my own free range bantams - small but perfectly formed

Thanks so much for all the info
Katrina

Whole chickens, chicken wings, lamb breasts, chops etc are not just bone, they do contain a high proportion of meat, and that is what I call rmb's and these are definitely not recreational.

The large rmbs with little meat are the recreational bones, usually the large marrow bones, but even with these dogs will get some mineral benefit. 

interesting thread.

i was speaking to someone a while back about raw.  they claimed that animals fed on raw didn't live past 7 and that dogs couldnt cope with the amounts of protein in the diet.  they said the build up of phos in over the years and the large amounts of protein cause early death and liver and kidney disease / failure?

anyone know if any of this is true???  has anyone had any experience of raw fed dogs lives being shortened???  they have scared the living daylights out me about raw feeding and i have been asking the same questions to a variety of people to try and convince myself that i am doing the right thing by my dogs feeding raw.  i also feed about 60% bone.  is this too much then???  what problems could this cause??

thanks in advance.

What studies did they base their information on?

How many raw fed dog owners were interviewed and asked about the longevity of their dogs.

Dogs were living into ripe old age long before Winalot et al appeared on the horizon!

Most people who rabbit on aout protein levels and phosphorus content etc etc have not got a clue about dog nutrition, never studied it, cannot differentiate between complete and incomplete protein, its bioavailability, etc etc etc

If you are unhappy and uncertain about feeding raw, do not continue.

If you are unhappy and uncertain about feeding raw, do not continue

hi tohme,

thanks for the reply.  i am trying to find out some more info from those who have been feeding the diet longer than i have.  I would like to continue with a raw diet but i'm sure you understand why i am looking for advice, support and evidence against these claims as they have scared me a little! 

Well neither of my dogs have had a problem with it and I have been feeding the younger one (2.5 year old) on it since he was 7 weeks and the older one (7 years old) on it for 6 years.

They aint just pets either.............. ;)

thank you.  

My oldest dog is 10 and has been fed raw for 8 years - the younger is 5 and has been fed raw since she was about 14 weeks :) :) Both are in excellent health :) I know absolutely nothing about calcium and phosphorous and have no interest in finding out :D They just get fed a good mix of all sorts of things. Which human goes into that level of detail about their own diet ? :)

Daisy

Which human goes into that level of detail about their own diet ?

ha ha!!  maybe we should.....isn't britain the fattest country in europe? lol!

thanks you for your reply daisy,

as you can imagine i have been pestering a good many raw feeders and the responses have all come back positive.  I'm just such a worrier!!

> ha ha!!  maybe we should.....

But we know, in outline, what we should/shouldn't be eating. Less fat, more fruit and vegetables etc etc - but we don't measure it do we :) :) :) In my view dogs are the same as humans - I know what makes a good diet, I know what foods to avoid or limit - as far as I am concerned that is sufficient :) :) If anyone is really keen to study nutrition, that's fine, everyone has their own interests - but that level of knowledge just isn't necessary for the average owner :) :) IMVHO :D

Daisy

TBH i wouldnt have a clue what %age of rmb's i feed,i wouldnt even know how to figure it out..Maths is not my friend
However 60% of the total diet does sound like an awful lot,especially if one is feeding vegies aswell,id'e say around 40% sounds a bit more even.

Caileag i would love to know who these people are who told you these stories.. Dogs are meant to handle high protein and fat diets,this is what they thrive on in the wild,aka their natural diet. It's man's interference and the advent of poor quality commercial foods that have done the untold damage to our dogs

http://rawfed.com/myths/

>and the advent of poor quality commercial foods that have done the untold damage to our dogs

What damage?   Dogs are living now as long as they ever have.  Dogs are not wild and have not been for millenia, in truth man has already interfered with dogs in creating pure breeds.  Creating diets to suit the modern dog was the logical next step for him :)

    >Dogs are living now as long as they ever have.  :rolleyes:

Isabel read this Link it says everything i believe and have been trying to tell you for so long....

http://rawfed.com/myths/longevity.html

Ktee & Isobel, if you want a debate about canine longevity, would you please take it to the General board as that topic covers a range of issues not just diet. The subject of this thread was I believe a question about calcium/phosphorous ratios needed for a raw diet so I cannot see why it is now turning into another argument about the merits (or not) of commercial dog diets. Keep it on topic please!