Hey everyone

We are getting a SBT male this coming November (Fingers crossed!) and the breeder we are having him from says the pups leave at 7 weeks old.
This is a very well known and well used breeder so I know they are not just trying to off load the pups as soon as possible, but i always thought that the pups should go to new homes from 8 weeks onwards?
We got our bitch SBT at 8 weeks old and another breeder we were considering for a pup doesnt let her pups leave till 10 weeks old.

Just wondering if anyone has an opinion on this as I'm thinking about asking them to keep him until 8 weeks old just for my own sake of mind, and no doubt theres breeders on here would you keep a pup for another week if someone asked you too and the pup was all fully paid for??

Your advice and opinions please!

I think you will get every opinion you could possibly hope for :).  Personally, I like to keep them until 8 weeks but that is because I want to have them that long :) I don't think there is necessarily anything wrong in letting them go at 7 weeks.
Funnily enough my terrier breed club year book, which I have just received, carries an interesting article by a well known, and very experienced, breeder in Canada who is drawing a connection between increased biting incidents and puppies going too early.  She always keeps her terrier puppies (not your breed) until they are 11 weeks because she believes they need that time to learn good manners from the mother.  She gives lots of anecdotal evidence on what is clearly well observed interactions between the dam and puppies during those weeks that does give a pretty convincing arguement in support of her hypothesis.

You'll find several posts on this subject in this post about a puppy. Check from the bottom of page 1 onward.

I got my SBT male at 7 weeks old.  He's now nearly 5 years old and is a very well mannered, happy, well adjusted boy.  I personally don't see a problem with pups of this breed going at 7 weeks, though I'm sure there will be others that will disagree!

Sarah.

Hi Bonkers

Good to hear fromsoneone who owns SBT''s, so your dog is just as happy and well adjusted as a pup who left home at 8 weeks then?
Seems breeders all have their own ways of doing it, but i had just never heard of a puppy leaving home at 7 weeks before.

My breed club advises that pups should not leave home before 7 weeks and in practise nearly everyone I know lets pups start to go at the weekend before 8 weeks.

A lot does depend on the breed and their development which varies quite a lot, with some being more than ready at that age and some not nearly ready.

Hi Rach,
Yep, he's got a cracking temperament and has never had any problems (but I did put a lot of work into him as a pup, think that makes a big difference!).

Sarah.

thanks Bonkers and everyone else!

The pup will be with us, after i have just worked out the dates, just nbefore 8 weeks like brainless has just mentioned.

Its good to see people agree with this letting them go at 7weeks as i really wasnt sure, obviously if the pup we want seems to need more socialisation from his mum, ie being really over boisterous with other puppies i would ask for him to stay so mum can teach him a few more lessons on manners!

So would any of you breeders on here be happy to keep a puppy for another week if requested by a prospective buyer and the pup was all fully paid for?

We got our first family dog aged 6.5 weeks old and he was one of the most dog dominant aggressive males I knew of - he was an English Springer, a breed not known for temperaments like that.    My last litter of Munsters I bred, I was adamant none left before 8 weeks old and I'm glad I stuck to my guns as they all have fantastic temperaments and all are extremely sociable creatures!

My pups don't leave before the weekend after they're 7 weeks. Before that they're too immature, and much after 8 weeks they badly need lots of one-to-one attention.

Jeangenie, so you let your pups go just after 7 weeks old??

So should I just judge the litter and the pup we choose when I see them and take it from there?
As i dont want a pup whos not had a good socialisation with other dogs beforehaving him as he will be a problem dog, and it wouldnt be fair on either the pup or us!

Remember that Guide Dog puppies, who need to very well socialised indeed with dogs as well as people and the general environment, leave at 6 weeks to go to their puppy-walkers.

Pups who stay too long with their own litter start forming a them-and-us pack, and can actually be more difficult to integrate with 'outsider' dogs, not less.

Our boy won't be a guide dog puppy, but a hopeful Stud!

Now im stumped as it could be bad to leave them till 8 weeks old or it could be bad to take them earlier at 7 weeks old.
Think its one of those things that you have to judge when you're there isnt it?

A potential stud needs a very steady temperament as well! A dod with a dodgy temperament should never pass on its genes!

If, when you get there, the pups at 7+ weeks are confident, bold and outgoing (don't visit them just after they've eaten!) then they're ready to leave.

I know I've read in at least one SBT breed book that 6 weeks is a good age for this particular breed to leave the litter.

I let my puppies go at 8 weeks as a rule however if the family are experienced dog people then I will let them have them at 7 weeks but never younger.
I have been asked by another breeder before for a nearly 6 week old puppy and refused, they are just to young.
I had my labrador at 6 weeks and she is great and was a wonderful puppy.

This is exactly what I do as well. The pups go at about 7½ weeks, again usually the weekend that works out the best as people travel so far 9 times out of 10. By then they need individual attention and the bitch has had more than enough.

A lot of people (eg. breeders of many years standing) say they prefer for pups to go BEFORE 8 weeks because they enter a new fear stage then -not sure how correct that is.

Edited to say: This was meant to fall under the post where JG said she lets her go the weekend afetr they're 7 weeks.

Interesting points guys, we would have our boy as stud unless he was good in every way (Temperament, looks, build etc) as with SBT's theres enough unwanted litters out there .

Is it because the pups will be sleepy that you shouldnt see them after feeding or another reason?

Maybe its best for them to go at 7 and a half weeks old, as according to my book on SBT's they do enter a new fear stage at 8 weeks and a fair few more after that, theyre big softies really aint they! :) :)

Yes, after feeding they'll be sleepy and you won't see their true characters. :)

I got 1 of my SBT's at 7 weeks and never had any problems, she has a sound temperment and was very confident for her age so she just settled right in, she was no different to my other 2 who i got at 8 weeks.

out of interest in regards to studding a dog.
We would only want to stud out to people who can afford and manage a litter (ie big enough house etc) have stud owners been know to vet peoples homes who want to use their stud dog?
As we wouldnt want to stud him to a bitch and they couldnt actully handle a litter, but you wouldnt know as you only see them not their house etc!

Thanks Pepsi, nice to know that it doesnt make a difference with age of a week difference, think we will be happy with taking a pup at 7 weeks old now, will be harder work then taking him at 7 weeks tho! All those toilet trips!

Allowing your dog to be used at stud is probably least about the facilities of the breeder.  A litter can be reared well in a small house with limited facilities and badly where no expense is spared and excellent facilities.

The purpose behind breeding and the correct homing and taking of responsibility for pups bred is what counts, for both breeder and stud owner.  Not to mention in depth knowledge of the breed and the dogs within pedigrees. :)

Only a small percentage of dogs especially, and bitches are suitable to be bred from, and this will not become apparent until they reach maturity and if there are compatible quality mates.

Sometimes you can have an excellent animal that has just one fault, but this may be one that is prevalent in the breed and then that could rule it out from being bred from.  It is all about improveing and/or maintaining the standard within the breed.

Thanks Brainless and i agree 100%.

Would just be nice to know that the people who use him as stud would be able to look after them rather then just taking their word for it, but i suppose you would use your better judgement on that one wouldnt you from meeting the owners of the bitch.

Thanks Surannon thats good advice!

I wouldn't worry too much about putting him at stud just yer Rach.  By the time both he and any prospective bitches have proven themselves in some field or another, be it showing, agility, working, etc, you'll have got to know people quite well and will be in a better position to judge what their capabilities are re: rearing a litter  :)

Debs

We just mated our girl last week, i met the stud dog owner a few months ago through the breeder i got my girl from she came to our house to meet us see my bitch check health certificates and just generally have a chat, i dont know if all stud dog owners are like that but it was very nice to get to know them, they could see our girl in her home and we got to see her boy in his home so we had time to decided if he was the best match for our girl and vice versa.

So stud dog owners do come round to houses and meet owners in their own enviroment and see the bitch at home? Thats great, we would do the same, all betting on he's able to stud!

How many free studdings do you have to give untilmhe is fully proven and you can start to ask for money? and how do you know how much to ask for!
The boy we will be getting will be having 29 champs in his pedigree, how does pedigree effect pricing?

Just trying to get as much info as possible as you lot know alot about breeding! :)

The stud we used has done very well in shows and has sired quite a few litters and we paid £200 first mating was a slip mating went back 48 hours later and had a tie for 40 mins then the stud owner offered another mating because of the slip mating, I think once you he has sired a litter then hes proven so can start charging but someone might correct me on that as im not to sure i dont have a stud dog.

£200 is about the norm for a SBT isnt it? Until theyre well known for litters of amazing quality etc then people start to charge more I think.

Im aware the fee gains you 2 matings and if the bitch misses both times then you come back next season and get a freebie!

So now im content with the pup were getting at 7 1/2 weeks old and I know some ore about studding, great!

Rach85, just to say, the normal way of doing things properly is that you do not OFFER your dog at stud -you wait for bitch owners to approach you and ask. Owners that have seen your dog at shows and liked him. Therefore you can't ever really decide if a dog is going to be a stud dog or not (unless you have bitches yourself which are suited to him, but that's quite rare for the same owner to have the best possible match at home) -and he may never get used.  One of the top winning dogs in my breed didn't get used until he was 7 years old.

MarianneB I am aware that people should approach you, its just aterm i use 'offer him as stud' so poeple know what im talking about!! But thanks fpr the advice, were hoping he will like showing but i've known alot of stud dogs who hated, and i mean hated the show ring and they have to advertise or else they wouldnt be known about.

Its a shame as some really beautiful dogs have been missed due to not being shown, but if your dog doesnt like it then you cant force it can you!

Okay. :) I have to disagree though, in a breed like yours where there are SO many dogs, there shouldn't be any need to use a dog at stud that doesn't like showing. There may be a reason for why they don't, the temperament might not be good enough. I'd not consider it a good idea to advertise such a dog for stud. It's slightly different in my breed as they are so rare -at this moment in time only 3 active show breeders in the entire country.

Some dogs who have the best temperament, the best looks and everything you could ever want in a show dog, simply just dont like it.
No reason related to anything bad, just they didnt like it, and i would never force a dog to show if he was perfect in everyway as the dog wouldnt be happy.

SBT's are around a lot now, hence why i would want to vet people who bring their bitch to me so i know the pups would be well looked after and rehomed to nice people as i would want to know where each pup went, if the bitches owners dont like it, they dont use him!!

Some dogs who have the best temperament, the best looks and everything you could ever want in a show dog, simply just dont like it.
No reason related to anything bad, just they didnt like it, and i would never force a dog to show if he was perfect in everyway as the dog wouldnt be happy.

But you'd have no PROOF of the dog being as good as that, with no show results. We all think our dogs look great, its  often not until they are in the ring next to others you can really SEE what's what.And like I said, with the one breed where the KC themselves urged people to be careful and not breed too much as there are too many and not enough homes (I don't think this has ever happened in any other breed) it would be wrong (and pointless) to breed from anything but the very best. There's plenty choice.

The proof would be in what he looks like and if he fits the pedigree of the bitch wanted to be put to him.I would also try other things like agility or flyball as like i said earlier showing is only a small part he can still be seen by breeders and shown without him having to be judged in a show.

Showing is a part of breeding but not all of it, we would still try to get him to show but i would never force him as ive already said because
Plenty of stud dogs are successfull without showing.We wouldnt breed too much as i said if people wanted him and i felt he had alreay sired a lot or needed a break I would decline.

The proof would be in what he looks like and if he fits the pedigree of the bitch wanted to be put to him.I would also try other things like agility or flyball as like i said earlier showing is only a small part he can still be seen by breeders and shown without him having to be judged in a show.

But not many of us are experienced enough to know exactly what the looks ARE like -it's so easy to think your dog is the best when you look at it at home. It took me about 2 years of showing my first Malinois bitch before I had learnt what her actual faults were, and her strengths, and was able to start understanding judges reasoning when I saw a class lined up. To start with I figured they all looked much the same! I honestly don't think a lot of Staffie breeders are going to be doing agility and flyball (but good on you for planning to!) and therefore see him at such shows, unfortunately. It's not really a breed where you have particular working qualities that can be as valuable (or more) than the looks. Not like say a Labrador, Border Collie or a German Shepherd.

Behavioural traits are often inherited, and I would not want to use a male that hated being shown as I want pups that will like being shown.

My younger champion bitch can be bored on occasion at shows, and if she is in such a mood she will not do so well, and her Father can be just the same, both have a very placid sensible disposition.

On the other hand her Mum loves showing but can be very wilful :D

It very much depends on the breed.  In my breed you would expect to pay the price of a puppy whatever the experience of the dog.  It would be usual to wait for the results of a first time stud before payment but certainly all studs are paid for.  Males in my breed do not get many opportunities of being used.  Some champions have never been used because there wasn't a suitable bitch for them.

I'm not an expert but...
I don't think its just about how many champions there is in the pedigree...
I suppose some people are probably ready to pay more for a dog with champions in the pedigree but if you dog doesn't "make" nice puppies himself the red in his pedigree does not mean much...

In my breed knowledgeable people look at the offspring of the dog more than titles in the pedigree.
That is one reason to be picky of which bitch you let your dog to cover especially when he is starting his stud career!
Obviously having champions in the pedigree could mean there is more of a chance of your dog producing puppies that are nice and look like the breed is supposed to look...

Also I have not heard an unproven dog not charging at all, often the payment might be done after the bitch is scanned an in pup...
But I would think this is probably different in different breeds.

Good points made Noora we know that champions dont make champions but its a good start for me a novice in the breeding world!
Hence why we are starting with a stud dog hopefully and then will progress one day to breeding a bitch when i have enough expierance of people who have come to me etc etc.

So you charge for the first litter but only when confirmed, thanks for that! :) :)

Hence why we are starting with a stud dog hopefully and then will progress one day to breeding a bitch when i have enough expierance of people who have come to me etc etc.

Sorry if I seem like I'm trying to disagree with all you say when you are being sensible in asking for advice - don't mean it in an unfriendly way. :) But a stud owner has to know a fair bit about breeding, rearing litters, genetics, health etc, because you may well need to give advice to the bitch owner -who may be a novice. It's rather the other way around that most people start with a bitch, then when confident enough that they know what they are doing may keep a stud dog.

You are disagreeing with everything!! lol! :)

I see exactly where your coming from and would be more worried if people just said, 'yeah use him, dont worry about anything!!''
Im already reading 'The book of the bitch' so i getting to know everything about breeding as of course people may need advice and help with the litter and i'll be more then willing to help, and possibly take pups on they cant sell if the need is very very urgent rather then see the pup culled or sold to lesser people on the cheap.

I'm afraid that I would disagree with most of what you're saying too. :(  What do you mean when you say "his pedigree fits the pedigree of the bitch"?

Have you read this?  http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/55104.html
and this http://www.dogplay.com/GettingDog/breedercomparison.htm

." It's rather the other way around that most people start with a bitch, then when confident enough that they know what they are doing may keep a stud dog. "

Quite right as when you have a bitch you study her pedigree and ask her breeders advice on potential mates and study their one or two pedigrees.

When you own a stud dog you have to know all the bitch pedigrees too, in depth as your knowledge of his mates can make or break his stud career as he will get the blame if he produces badly or God forbid produces health issues.

I know a number of owners of nice males who have won well who won't let their dogs be used at stud as they think it to huge a responsibility, especially with helping to home any pups that end up needing re homing, as they cannot control who the breeder lets the pups go to.

I know what you mean by chosing the dog from the lines with champions, bigger possibility of him being nice himself! Good way to go for somebody who is starting out...and learning.

My future pups parents have 19 champion titles between the mum and the dad( dad champion of 12 countrys and mum 7 countrys)
This however was not why I chose the litter, it was the combination of the two, the suitability of the pedigrees/parents.
It is a skill to put the right kind of dogs with right pedigrees together.

:) I'm obviously hoping my pup will get some of the good look of her parents :)
but even if she is not a huge show star herself I believe her pedigree/lines are something I would like to start my own breeding with.

Have you thought about the fact that as a stud dog owner you should have a lot of knowledge as you might have to advise the bitch owners who are novice? Or will you have the support of the breeder of the dog behind you?

Im on the same lines as yourself there Noora, exactly the same.

We have a better chance of having a stud dog, show dog if he's from a good line of showing dogs, not that champions make champions as ive said before but its a much better start then getting a dog with no pedigree isnt it!
We didnt choose the litter because of pedigree either was just a stroke of luck it was so good and packed of champs, we didnt even get the pedigree until after we had aksed to be out on their list!
We thought the dogs were gorgeous and we would love a pup from them! :) they are both stunning!  :)

Why is it you want a stud dog?
Just wondering as obviously as a breeder you will breed your own line and type etc... you will hopefully breed to better the breed... Have your own line and look...
But as a stud dog owner what is it you get out of it?
Have you thought about the fact that a dog used in stud might not make the best pet and dog to do things with (Just think this can be a case? Never had a dog myself...)

Edited to add:I actually saw the pedigrees of the dogs before even meeting the dogs themselves!
I even reserved my puppy before I went to meet the parents (I had to travel there, litter not in UK)!
I think the pedigree and the dogs there is extremely important if you want to continue the line... Not if there is load of champions but what dogs there is and what they were healthwise etc.

Do you mean in terms of him not being fixed and being a nuisance dog?
We are taking him to early days puppy classes, obedience classes and ringcraft! So he will be very well socialised with all kinds of dogs and situations, and if the studding career doesntwork he would simply be castrated and we would look for other means of breeding!

We did think of getting a bitch to breed but we werent ready for that just yet and to stud a dog will ease us into the world of breeding.
Plus we dont consider we have the room for puppies to be running around!We would get the satisfaction of knowing good quality pups were going to good quality homes and the rep of the breed would be upheld by good qualitybred staffies rather then litter sired by lesser staffs with no health checks etc etc.

we dont consider we have the room for puppies to be running around!

Just so long as you realise that as the owner of the stud dog you are as responsible for those puppies as the owner of the bitch :)

Debs

Absolutly, if they can not rehome one or more and they cant keep them themselves for a reason, we would take them rather then the pups be sold cheap to less deserving people.No worries there Debs! :) We would manage if we had too!

>Plus we dont consider we have the room for puppies to be running around!<

My puppy's breeder ended up with a litter one of her dogs sired because the owner of the bitch became ill. She already had a litter from a bitch she wanted a puppy from so had two litters two weeks apart. Lots of work but was best for the puppies. So you just may end up with the pitter-patter of little pooping paws! :-D When you have one of the parents you just never know. She will also take back any unwanted dogs bred from her's whether from her bitches or her studs.

If we had to take responsibility for a litter because of that reason then we would without a doubt, would be fun looking after the pups anyway!but we would breed puppies just yet through choice but never would we leave a person who's used our stud in the lurch, if help is needed its given! :)