:rolleyes:
I made the silly mistake of looking through the local free ads last night, and got so annoyed. It was full of puppy farm ads breeding about 10 differnt types of breeds and cross breeds and selling them at extortionate prices. THe most silly cross i saw - border collie x bull dog, cn you imagine what that would be like?! Why would you even think of crossing those two breeds! THen there was the people advertising for dogs wated, must be good with children cats and other dogs but must be free! Surely if you aren't prepared to pay for a dog then how do you intend to care for it!!
FInally one advert i really couldn't understand was from a so called registerd and accreditted breeder of boxers advertising their recent litter of white boxers as DOCKED! Now i know gundogs can be exempt from the ban, but i've yet to see a working boxer, so why and how was this done?! You can't show docked dogs anymore and i thought you couldn't show white boxers anyway so why flout the law? Whether people like it or not its illegal!!

This is one reason I disagree with people about advertising in the free ads ans local papers.  this is the place many potential puppy owners look first and if they only see adverts from puppy farmers and never see adverts mentioning hip scores health tests etc, then they do not know that there are differing qualities of breeder, and the market is left open to such as these.

If people could see that for the same money they would get a quality health tested pup then these kinds of puppy producers would find it harder to sell their sub standard breeding.

Your quite right it has been ileagal to dock since the beginning of April.  you can only not show docked dogs at shows where the general public pay to get in, such as Crufts.

We have just recently been taking about this amoungst breeders in my breed and a few now have themselves on most of the sites. It is now getting crazy , the puppy farmer is now just a everyday person in a house making money unethically from decent people.   I used to be very against the sites but I do definately agree with Brainless, we all owe a little to our breeds to at the very least point people in the right direction.

People are often afraid to put themselves on line for fear of benefit people of councils etc seeing them BUT if you backup your breeding by your records you have nothing to worry about.

Our breed rescue pays for adverts in one of the papers near the commercial outlet that always has our breed, it is a two edged sword as more people are aware of the bred rescue and we get More rescues in nearly all stemming from this place.

We get the usual adolescents and young adults that have not been trained or people are bored with and give up with the most feeble of excuses.

We have also had elderly ones in with no problems other than not being wanted in their sunset years GRRR!

It would be nice if all the papers that list puppies woudl head the colunm with

"Please contact the kennel club for details of the relevant breed club of the breed you are interested so you can contact them for advice (such as recomended genetic health tests) before considering the purchase of any particular breed."

Anyone want to see if they can get theri free adds to carry that?

Wasn't it Sam who had one of the neigbouring farmers mate a Bulldog and Collie?

This particular one also had several poodle crosses and proper breeds so they were puppy fariming at its worst!
I thought it wasn't possible to show white boxers anyway, tail or no tail?

there are no disqualifying faults in the British showring other than a dog being vicious or deaf or blind.  A white boxer woudl simply stand no chance in the ring as it woudl have more faults than it's properly marked brethren.

Ah but it is considered a fault in the Boxer breed standard.
A boxer should have no more than a third white..;)

>I thought it wasn't possible to show white boxers anyway, tail or no tail?

If they're KC registered they can be shown, but because they have such a major fault they would automatically be placed last.

yes barbara it was a rne to me.....is the op in my area??

FInally one advert i really couldn't understand was from a so called registerd and accreditted breeder of boxers advertising their recent litter of white boxers as DOCKED!

What about contacting the KC and letting them know? They must be flouting the A breeder scheme if the pups are docked, also the RSPCA may well be interested!

I was considering doing this, but i had no idea who to contact. I know they have definately broken the law if they have docked, particularly as i can't imagine there are any vets who would dock a litter of boxers knowing that it is against the law and has always been against the rcvs code of conduct, so they must have done it themselves, they also said they had have the dew claws removed as well.

Just looking on there and it's amazing how many gundogs seem to be potential workers - and also other breeds which from the date advert was placed and info on age seem to have come after the ban. Others seem to refer to docking in Ireland.

M.

:rolleyes:  Yes, I also saw the Freeads Site and was amazed at the number of Pit Bulls advertised at Stud or for sale.  Do Mr & Mrs Public not realise what damage one of these dogs could to if it was bought by a family with young children.
Bye the way, having been in my breed for over 30 years I was told that a friend's pup had been bought from a local puppy supermarket "But she is KC Registered" they said.  They were amazed when I told them that the KC will register everything on four legs, and the KC Reg. means nothing when it comes to the health of the puppy they are buying.
Regards Barbara

If she really was KC registered Barbara, I'd be asking to have a look at her pedigree 'for interest'. Chances are it's probably DLRC rather than KC, but if it isn't I'd be bringing it to the KC's attention.

M.

Hi........if you ad ress your email or telephone the KC for the attention of Mr Bill Lambert he is the officer that visits all the accredited breeders, i know he is out of the office until the 23rd July but you can speak to anyone else in the accredited breeder dept
hope this helps
Pauline

but i had no idea who to contact.[/

Ring or email the KC, give them the location of the ad, the details, the fone number. Same to the RSPCA. They should take it from there. Have a look on the KC puppy sales reg, see if this litter is advertised there (fone numbers/location match) and put this info in too. :)

But the KC has said they will NOT police the docking ban and so therefore not to report instances of docked dogs to them. Quote from the KC:
It is not the intention of the Kennel Club to police the law actively nor to get involved in disputes as to whether or not dogs have or have not been illegally docked or illegally shown. That is a matter for the authorities. The Kennel Club will however be required to follow up any convictions successfully brought under the Acts and will require to discipline proven offenders accordingly under its own Regulations.

I was thinking more along the line of them being A breeders, if they are doing something wrong that should be brought to the KC attention. :)

They must be flouting the A breeder scheme


I looked at the KC list recently and the unheard of breeders with the multiple litters listed were all Accredited breeders.  What does the KC do put them right to the top of the list.

I someone times wonder who is the person coming up with these brainwave ideas :rolleyes:

I just don't understand why they can't work more in partnership with breed clubs. I know some members on here have issues with some of the breed clubs BUT as a whole the breed clubs are there to protect the breed.

Its not really that difficult to become an A breeder, is it. If you test your dogs, sign the box to agree terms, pay the money to the KC, there you go, off and running! Any puppy farmer to joe Blogs could do it, then you have this 'banner' to add to your adverts, to the unwary you must be good coz the Kc approve, nay recommend you as being a fantastic breeder with super dogs. :( Puppy farmers will love it, coz no matter how many litters you breed you can advertise free of charge and be above all the others, regardless of who they are.

The Kennel Club intend for it not to be difficult to join.  That is the whole point of it, not just to acknowledge those that do breed to a higher standard but to premote and encourage it in others.
Rather than go through it all again I would suggest people read this lengthy thread instead :)

Well, it would seem its not working then :D Just making the pet bred pups more respectable. or apparently so ;)
Just because health checks are done, it dosent follow that everything else is right, or that the health checks were good results :)

>it dosent follow that everything else is right

No it doesn't.  It can only be judged on its stated aims so not sure what you mean by not working.  If the required tests are not done the breeder can be reported. 
As to the result, as has been previously discussed, it is not always beneficial to a breed to have "fail" results on certain tests.  It is up to people to do their own research into whether it is important to them to have a puppy from parents with a result that is below average on a certain test, for instance, or whether other issues balance out a poorer result. At least with the scheme the results will be there for them to see.

By 'not working' I mean that everyone, from the puppy farmer to the 'lets have a litter' or two.....pet person can be A Breeders just from doing a few tests. The A Breeder status on the advert places them (on paper) to be above someone who does know what they are doing but are not members. In fact it also puts them up there with the good ones! :rolleyes: As you say, people who know how to handle 'fail' tests, or not so good ones, will understand what to do but there are others who don't know the meaning of them but so long as they are tested thats fine. Thats all the unsuspecting new owner needs to know, is that they have been tested etc as per the scheme.

The A breeder should have made things better, but it seems to me that it is simply making things eaiser for the commercial breeder, puppy farmer, backyard breeder, whatever, because it gives them status.

Look, Im not saying the KC are not trying to clean things up, people have seen the way to make themselves more respectable, and have taken it.

They have to meet several requirements not just the tests.  I don't know what else they can do regarding the test results, as has been discussed, other issues can suffer if you have a clear cut pass or fail so people are always going to have to do some reseach but the fact that increasingly people do find out things, thanks to the internet, the fact that the test must be done and the result exposed to examination seems like a big incentive to me to breed from the best results possible.

>making things eaiser for the commercial breeder, puppy farmer, backyard breeder, whatever, because it gives them status.

It depends how you define all these things but by making them conform to certain standards and opening them to inspection you are going to improve their breeding practices. If there are people breeding at a higher level still but not joining the scheme then yes they will appear less desirable on the list but I don't understand why they would not participate and I expect that would be the KCs answer to that one :)

The requirements are not hard to meet. We will see a 3 teir system now, with accolades given to certain A breeders......making them even better than the A breeders .............it just gets worse :D

>can be A Breeders just from doing a few tests

Or even, in the case of 16 breeds, by doing no tests at all, as there is nothing in the 'required' column.

These include Bulldogs (all manner of health issues), Boxers (heart?), Sussex (bad on hips I believe?), Dalmatians (BAER recommended but not required).

This scheme just doesn't seem to have any teeth to me.

M.

Can't be bothered to count them all but I reckon there must be a good 70, 80 breeds with obligatory testing.  So a few teeth there :)

I'm heartened by your ability to see the positive, Isabel. :D

M.

It's a huge differential M :)  Considerably easier to see the positive I would have thought.

OK, had my dinner, will post something more constructive now.

I fully agree that something is better than nothing. However, in certain areas, this seems barely better than nothing and certainly not worthy of the emphasis the KC seem to put on it.

I still have an issue that even where testing is required, an horrific fail is just as much of a tick in the box as a pass. Someone in our breed makes much of their founder membership of the scheme and advertises their dogs as DNA profiled, eye tested etc. - they omit to mention that one of their stud dogs has a hip score of 70 in a breed with a BMS of 12. They regularly charge £100 more than the average puppy price because of their KCAB status. I wouldn't mind so much if the dog was of any quality, but realise that's a whole other can of worms that would be much harder to deal with than cut and dried test results.

To be honest, I wouldn't have one of their dogs if they paid ME the price they were charging, but the pet buying public aren't always aware of what they should be avoiding and will think they're doing exactly the right thing by going to one of the KC's very bestest breeders.

I just fail to be convinced that the scheme is of any value - I think breeders who do it right would have done so anyway. I would be pleased (even at higher cost, if benefits of reduced registration etc. were included) to see it far more efficiently policed and would be far more inclined to join.

M.

I am sure the scheme is not perfect but I also feel no scheme can be because there is no unanimous concensus but I think it is a very positive step in the right direction.  If you start putting passes and fails on things like hip scoring where on earth could you put them that would make everyone feel the needs of the individual and the breed had been met.

>I think breeders who do it right would have done so anyway.

Yes, but the stated aim is to improve the practices of those that didn't.
All those points have been covered in the thread I have linked but, personally, I cannot see how not joining helps move things further forward.

Erm just having a look I think I know who the person is..
The pups are also advertised on the other web puppy selling site..

These pups are 'born' in Eire....

>These pups are 'born' in Eire

Honest Guv! :rolleyes:

M.

Even if they were legally docked abroad (and we all believe that, don't we children?) they still couldn't be shown here, whatever their colour.

Perhaps they were produced for the 'pet' market :rolleyes:

Bet they're not 'pet' prices though, cos they're 'rare'. :rolleyes:

Well ... they can at Club shows, where the public don't pay, surely? Or am I still mis-reading this?

M.

Nope, I'm not going mad (well, not for this reason anyway). From the KC website:

If your dog was legally docked either in the UK or in another country on or after 28th March/6th April 2007, you will be permitted to compete with it at:

(a) all shows held in Scotland

(b) all shows held in Northern Ireland

(c) those shows held in England and Wales where the public do not pay to be admitted.

So that's all open and companion shows, and a lot of the Champ shows too I think?

Yep, by my reckoning. Most (but not all, don't think SWKA did?) of the general champ shows charge for entry - and Crufts of course - but there are plenty that don't.

It's no wonder people are confused, is it?

M.

The problem will be finding a vet to do it. I'm sure I'll get used to seeing my next American cocker with a tail, but it would be nice to think that if I decided to restrict myself to open and companion shows I might be able to get a docked one. Ah well! :rolleyes:

Equally it'll be nice for people who want a spaniel with a tail to have more chance of getting something rather better than a pet-bred one. :)

Our local Freeads lists loads of dogs 'free to a good home through no fault of his own'  usually aged between 6 months and 2 years :( :( now I wonder why that could be??? could it be the owners just haven't bothered to train and now the dog's running amok?

Worst one I ever saw was a pedigree bitch 'free to... etc.' but with the addition of "not speyed so could be used for breeding :( :( :(   Whoever wrote that obviously has NO idea of where she could end up or how bad things could get for her :( :(

What I don't understand is why the KC don't widely publicise the need for health tests for the different breeds of dogs ??  After all if Joe Public had more info they could ask for proof of health testing etc.  Then they might start to understand the difference between a well-bred pup and an expensive one ;)

my first BC tara, was free to a good home from the free ads,she was 18months.Just didnt want her anymore,i guess she had grown up too much.I was her 3rd home. Born on a farm, then sold to a chap in a flaT who then passed her on to this young couple, who DID love her but had never had a dog before so she developed a few typical BC "quirks" they split up ...so i had her,shes a BRILL dog

Same here with my latest addition, she was free on preloved.  Rehomed because the owner's husband and daughter both developed serious illnesses and theyw ouldn't have time for her.  Strangely enough, they didn't train her and she began to run amok - their solution was not to rehome her then, but to get "a bit harsh" with her.

She's a fantastic dog, obedient, sharp as anything - but very nervous, especially of hands.  :(

Out of interest, can a bitch be taken out of the country to one that allows docking, have the litter, then be allowed back to UK with the litter and then register it with our KC?

I'm racking my brains (such as they are LOL) to remember where I read this, but I thought in Scotland they were not allowed to take a bitch across border to dock? is this so, and would it be like this in England?

advert in my local free ads for the black gundog crossed with the standard curly often clipped breed with dogs £550 adn bitches £650, advert calls them by that made up name and says theya re F! hybrid with the gundog mum and the other breed the Dad.  Says picture says it all, yep look like balck crossbreeds to me :(

I went to our  (almost) local pet food shop yesterday. Had a look at the adverts there. There was a litter of Elkhounds advertised. But the interesting thing was an ad for Toy Poodle x Springer pups. Now you'd immediately think they had come up with some silly name ending with poo and charging a fortune. Nope. £50 ! My husband said we should go and buy them all, sell them as Springpoos or whatever and make a huge profit. ;) It was kind of reassuring to see there ARE still people who treat what I'm sure must have been an accident as just that, and not trying to make money out of deliberate crossbreeding. (Either that, or they just haven't cottoned on to what goes on........)