Does anyone know if a landowner can put cows with calves on land with a footpath over it?  This hasn't happened yet - but this landowner is trying to discourage people using the paths that criss cross his land.  He is thinking of putting cows on the field I have heard.   I am a bit nervous of cows at the best of times.

yes, they can

cows or cows with calves in fields with public footpaths is a common sight all over the UK.
the farmer doesn't have any legal rights stopping you using a public footpath across his land.
however, i am wondering if the reason he is trying to discourage walkers is because this is a field that has been planned in advance for grazing, and he is worried about the welfare of his calves (problems before maybe?)
as opposed to putting cows in their just to annoy walkers?

Yes, he has every right to put cows and calves on his own grazing.     It's his land (or rented).

I think if you're nervous of livestock, it would be better to find an alternative place to walk for your own peace of mind.     If you do walk there, remember that some cows will protect their calves quite fiercely, so if you walk your dog there (on a lead of course) ,be very very vigilant.

Jo

Cows can and do kill people, and it is usualy if they ahve had a dog with them.  the advice is if the cattle come for you to let the dog off lead and they will chase it, and beign faster and smaller ti will find an escape route and you will be safe.

After all it isw the farmers field and the only thing they aren't allowed to so is block the footpath or grow the crops over it.

Many years ago we were walking near Hadrian's wall with our dalmatian, and came to a field with VERY mean cows (no calves, though). We initially let the dog off the lead to escape them, and ran up onto the wall ourselves, but he could not scramble up, and was absolutely petrified, but unfortunately did not want to leave us and run off in a strange place either, so I had to go back into the field and be very big and angry with the cows to protect the dog until we could get to the gate and out of the field. It was a very scary experience, and I would not want to do it again. Thank goodness this was not the current (collie cross) we have now, as he would think it a great game to be let off the lead in a field of cows!

Sadly there are a number of cattle caused deaths each year I believe, and what starts the cattle off is usually a dog.

there was a well publicised case in the dog papers a few years ago of a lady trampled to death when walking her shelties as she had kept them on the lead with her.

Letting the dog go is as much to save yourself from being trampled than saving the dog. The dog will run off, or be able to avoid the cattle, which gives the walker time to find a place of safety. The lady brainless mentioned kept her dogs with her, and was killed for it, cows have trampled people before with dogs, its a case of your life/ safety being above the dogs. Which may sound harsh, but thats how it is, your life/health or the dogs.

Juts be careful the farmer doesnt see the dog in the field with the cows or else it may well be shot. Theres a few signs round a wood where we go where there is a farm stating any dogs seen near livestock off lead will be shot, same as the farmer you spoke of he has a farm with public footpaths through it, we clip Mitz on and watch our backs but as long as your not threatning or near a bull or any baby cows, cows are usually pretty placid, obviously if they start to charge you would run for cover and let your dog go but there so many risks nowdays just to take your dog for a walk!!

I don't think anyone is advocating people letting dogs off lead in fields with livestock, this shoudl only be a last resort if the cattle are coming for you.

im simply stating the risks of letting a dog off lead in some farmers land as some dogs sadly have met the fate of either being shot at or shot due them being around livestock, and if a farmer should see the cows charging and a dog amongst them he's likely to think that the dog caused the ruck in the first place! :rolleyes:

and he would be right, which is why it is better to avoid those fields in the first place if you have a dog with you. 

agree 100%

That is what I was afraid of - he has at present got huge machinery in digging ditches to drain the field - he has run machines back and forwards over the path and it is an absolute mud bath.  This land is wood and scrub land and has only been used for a couple of horses in the past.  People have had the free use of it for some years now when the last owner bought it on hope value for  development.  (which is highly unlikely)  This farmer lives some way from the land and will not be able to look after it full time.  I know the dangers of cows and calves. - I remember a cow charging all the way from the top of a field and we didn't have a dog nor were we that close to her calf.  We were by the beach and luckily the cliff was not very steep and we clambered down out of the way.   We have access to a common where there are cattle and horses.  However there is plenty of space to avoid walking near or inbetween a cow and it's calf.  I generally avoid walking there because Meg is dreadful at rolling and eating poo!   When animals go on this field I will have the same problem.  

What is it with dogs and cow or fox poo!:rolleyes::rolleyes:

All you can do really is keep your eyes wide open and try to avoid any known danger areas like you have been doing! :)
Weve been lucky in the sense we havent had any encounters yet, but were not saying we wont ever come into that situation, just have to judge it when it happens, but if i did have to let Mitz go and she was trampled and I got away dont think i could live with myself afterwards :(

He isn't allowed to dig up a public footpath so you can make a complaint over that.

People laugh at me when i tell them im scared of cows! Going to show them this thread!

Landowners have the right to plough up footpaths etc as long as they reinstate them afterwards. If he's doing essential maintenance work (and lets face it, maintaining and improving drainage ditches is essential!) then he's not breaking the law as long as he makes good the path when the work's completed.

Is it a genuine public Right of Way?

Contact your local Council if you feel he is breaking up the footpath  - there will be an official there whose job it is to protect footpaths.   Also contact any local Ramblers Associations - they are generally only too keen to keep footpaths open.

Here is the Ramblers Association website - gives you all sorts of info on footpaths.

www.ramblers.org.uk/footpaths

Margot

You say people have had free use of it for some years now but is it a registered Right of Way?  Is it marked on Ordinance Survey?  If not I think you would have to have that established first, if people can be roused to do it, before you can take any steps.

We have had all the checking done last year when he came in with a bulldozer and started clearing bluebells, trees etc. It was the wrong time of year to do it and some of the trees were big ones. 
There are 2 paths connected by a diagonal path that were all confirmed.  He was supposed to have reinstated the one path that he had bulldozed but he never did.  The top of this path comes onto a track that he also widened - and it is difficult climbing up it. 
Most people used the track that cuts across from one path to the other - I have used this path for the 30 years I have lived here and we now are in the process of trying to get this adopted as an official right of way.  He has blocked it now with earth. 
This piece of land was sold by being put into an auction last minute.  He snapped it up for quite a lot of money.  I met him looking around the next day and he seemed to be realising all the problems he had taken on.  However I can't get my head around why he should spend so much money - hiring all this machinery isn't cheap, for keeping a few cattle on land that has only about 10% grazing land on it.  The rest of it is bracken on a steep slope, old quarry, woodland and bog.  He has boasted of having plenty of money but his farm is in good farmland and surely there is plenty of land to rent. 
He has been totally unpleasant towards walkers including myself.  Kids use this land for making dens and playing with their bikes.  Fencing has been taken down in the past - we get the occasional scramble bike using it.  I can't see that any fencing he puts up (and that is another big expense before he puts animals on it) is going to stay intact.   I know that he has spoken to me in an agressive threatening manner when as a responsible member of the public he should have been valuing me walking over his land.  Ones natural inclination is to report animals escaping or in trouble or people causing damage.  I wouldn't walk away from a dangerous situation nor leave an animal suffering - but I am sure he would rather a direct phone call than a contact from the police or rspca.

My thoughts are with the farmer - I'd be going nuts if it was my land. An occasional dog walker and well behaved dog is one thing - but it sounds like he is being driven to distraction! No wonder he's putting cows on!

The land is his, providing he keeps within any regulations, its his to do with as he wishes :) if he doesnt want kids camping on it, or people walking all over it, riding bikes etc then that is up to him, but maybe this is why he's unplesant as everyone seems to be using all the ground as their own, not simply crossing the footpath! :rolleyes:  As and when he decides to fence it, should it be removed thats a criminal offence and the person/s responsible can be prosecuted. The footpath, as defined by ordanance survey is the only part where anyone has a right to walk. This does not include scramble bikes. I do wonder if he has some ideas for scramble bikes/4x4/ quads etc, due to the terrain.

You need to contact the relevant person at your council offices for advice regarding any footpaths.

That has been already done.  The footpaths are very well used and have been for a very long time.    I don't agree with him being able to do what he likes with his land - no-one can do that - we all have to abide by rules and regulations.  He hasn't had to put up with anything really - it was the previous land owner who did that - and that is why they got rid of it the way they did. Owning land is a real responsiblity. That is why I asked about the cows and calves - knowing how dangerous a cow can be.  If a burglar climbed over my back fence and I had put spikes along it and he injured himself - I would be liable - if a farmer puts dangerous animals on a public footpath surely if someone gets hurt he would also be liable?? 

I don't agree with him being able to do what he likes with his land - no-one can do that - we all have to abide by rules and regulations. 

It is his land.   He has bought it and, providing he adheres to any restrictions that may legally be placed on his land - it is his to do with as he wishes.  

Of course it is sad when something that has been taken for granted by many people for many years is suddenly stopped - but unless there is a legal precedent for such use - that is it!

Unless it is common land - he is well within his rights.

Margot

I think farmers have every right to put livestock on their land.

Thanks for your opinions - it is good to see the other point of view - yes I am upset - so are a lot of other people around here.  Nothing stays the same does it and change is hard to accept.  I have always taken my dogs around this walk - it used to be before or after work and I was always glad to watch the seasons changing and use the time to think.  There is nowhere else within walking distance that is quite like this -

Cows aren't necessarily dangerous :) Until I was 23 it was quite normal to have a herd of cows wander down my road and come into my front garden to eat the roses - or look out of my school window to watch the school groundsman chase them off the hockey pitch - or see them wander up the High Street :D :D All this on the edge of London :D :D Apart from the very occasional car hitting a cow, I never heard of a cow hurting anything - on the contrary, when we tried to stroke them they usually jumped and ran off :D The main damage was to garden walls when they stampeded after being shooed :D

Daisy

Two people (you have to scroll down quite a way to see the area break down of deaths on farms)died last year one was trampled to death by cows & the other was charged by a pregnant cow & killed

Admittedly these weren't pregnant cows - far from it - just young males for fattening, I'd imagine :D :D I remember being sent out sometimes, on my go-kart, with a bucket and spade to collect the manure :D :D Those were the days - no TV or computers for us - just shovelling muck :D

Daisy

It boils down to the fact that fields are primarily agricultural land and must be used as such, unless the owner applies to the council for planning permission for 'change of use'. The grazing of livestock is agricultural, and takes precedence over walkers.

Actually, its more akin to having folk stroll through your living room uninvited and tell you where you can and can't put your furniture.

If he has land and he owns animals - are you seriously implying that he shouldn't be allowed to graze them on it incase a dog walker wants to go through?! Where is he supposed to graze them then?

Carla he owns a farm and land about 6 miles away.  I didn't say he shouldn't graze animals there - I perfectly accept that - but I thought there were rules about bulls and as we know cows when they have young can be very dangerous to humans.   It is not quite like people going through your room uninvited - he has bought this land with rights of way over it - no-one in their right mind would buy a house with a right of way through the middle of it!

Actually, we have one through ours. Seriously - it goes between the Utility room and the kitchen! There is another that goes around the side and folk use that - but if someone wanted to come through they could - and we have to let them. Most walkers are sensible though and don't even complain when one of the ponies wriggles between them and escorts them across the field :D

When we kept our horses in a field that had a public footpath through it we got a complaint because one of our more bolder horses went to have a nosey at who was in his field (as he does with everyone!) and it scared the woman in the field so we were asked by the farmer to move the horse from that field.

Im not sure what would happen if the farmer wasnt as generous though?

This might be of interest

Full details of the responsibilities for maintaining rights of way are detailed in the Rights of Way Act (1990) for England and Wales, which includes:

    * a statutory right to plough footpaths and bridleways that pass through fields and which are not field edge paths. However, you must make good the surface within 14 days of the first disturbance. The local highway authority has the power to authorise an extension of up to 28 days for further works
    * to ensure that in making good the surface that a footpath has a minimum width of 1 metre and a bridleway has a minimum width of 2 metres

The Wildlife and Countryside Act, enforced by the highway authority, makes it an offence, subject to important exceptions, for the occupier of a field crossed by a right of way to cause or allow a bull to be at large in it.  The exceptions are:

    * bulls not more than ten months old; and
    * bulls which are not of a recognised dairy breed and which are at large with cows or heifers

Any bull over ten months old is prohibited on its own, and any such bull which is of a recognised dairy breed is prohibited even if accompanied by cows and heifers.

[Dairy breeds are Ayrshire, British Friesian, British Holstein, Dairy Shorthorn, Guernsey, Jersey, and Kerry.]

In general anyone taking a dog on a right of way is responsible for keeping it under proper control.  If a dog is allowed to run around off the path, trespass is committed against the holder of the land.

There is no rule requiring a dog to be kept on a lead on a right of way but it is an offence to allow a dog to be at large in a field or enclosure in which there are sheep (Dogs (Protection of Livestock ) Act 1953).  It is also an offence to allow a dog to attack or chase livestock. 

Carla sorry if I caused offence there - re footpaths through the house - I know folks have them through their gardens.
Thanks Moonmaiden for that information - he has threatened to put a bull on this land last year.  I am upset because my dog and I do stick to the footpath (except of course the disputed bit) and he has attacked me (verbally) - he should not be taking out his anger and frustration on me - a woman walking by herself - I know that a gentleman (who also uses the path and has a dog off lead) has said that Mr Farmer was perfectly reasonable with him - he told him that he and his family were welcome to come over and picnic whenever he liked!

As for wild flowers etc - now you nor I cannot take a head of seed from a bluebell never mind pick the bulb - but just because you own the land you can bulldoze the lot???     You cannot remove mature trees from you land with impunity either.

Daisy look at previous posts - if you walk between a cow and it's calf you can be attacked and people have been killed - you don't have to have a dog either - but having one makes you even more vulnarable.  I was brought up living in a country area - I used to help the farmer drive his cows in for milking - I am not afraid of cows - but I would not walk into a field with cows and calves in.  As for horses I have moved them out of the way on footpaths before now but there was one a few years back that took exception to dogs and I had his hooves whistling within inches of me once.  Could have killed a child or dog with that kick.   

It is interesting that he could put a Charolais or a Dexter Bull in there without any problem only Dairy bulls are not allowed???

Dairy bulls tend to have dodgier temperaments than beef bulls.

There is a herd of Welsh Black at the top of the hill (no footpath there) and there is usually a bull in with the cows and calves.  They are beef cattle too.   Having gone to see bull fighting in Spain once (do wish I hadn't) the bulls rarely had much fight in them - they were more puzzled and pathetic then anything - there are some breeds more dangerous then others though.  As I said before - I have been charged by a cow and I was not about to stand and wave my arms at her - she looked as if she meant business. 

Sure - just didn't want anyone thinking that ALL cows were dangerous :) :)

Daisy

In reply to Jan - interesting thought about change of use - if this was a field then I would have no argument but this land has only had a couple of horses grazing on it - and that was some 10 years ago now.  As I said it has been used for quarrying in the past - it is scrubland, hillside and bog.  The previous owner who did farm the land before he split it up never attempted to put his sheep on it - firstly he would have had trouble finding them in the bog and woodland, secondly they could get out in numerous places - enclosure of this land is a real problem for sheep - perhaps not for cattle.  This man is changing the use by trying to clear it and make it into pasture which it isn't at the moment.

Whether it is pasture, meadow, scrubland, woodland  or crop field, it will be agricultural, and as such the owner has jurisdiction over it and what he chooses to do with it - the only thing he cannot do without planning permission is build upon it!

And if it has been quarried previously, he can even reinstate the quarry again!

Margot

I wonder about that Margot - wouldn't he have to have a license to quarry - or at least to expand a quarry - he certainly can't tip anything in there without permission.  The quarries haven't been used for well over 100 years.  I have just been browsing DEFRA for what they say about uncultivated land - it can be called semi-natural if one can prove that it hasn't been cultivated for 15 years.  Unfortunately I know he can get in touch with the previous previous owner and he would say that he trimmed the bracken down before it was originally sold and he went around with his petrol can to burn the bracken every now and then - so it is cultivated. 

Remember that a landowner often (usually?) doesn't own the mineral rights to their own land.

I could never be a "Land owner".I think it would really bother me to see strangers walking through my property doing as they wish,whether it was their right or not,it just seems disrespectful to walk over someone elses 'garden' persay.But then again i would certainly think twice before buying land with a public right of way through it,i wouldnt..
Having said this i do walk over fields,but empty ones,i try not to go to any where there are cows or horses in the near vicinity as i am scared of them and my dogs are  too curious and want to wander far too close to investigate.

I think there is far too much emphasis on "rights" for some people and not enough for others.

Farmers are a dying breed and have to put up with a great deal of hassle from DEFRA and other authorities not to say many of the mindless public who can spend a lot of time causing a lot of time, distress and financial burdens on them.

As an individual you may be a law abiding citizen, but I know farmers who are plagued by fly tippers, metal detectors, scramblers, ramblers, kite flyers, remote controlled plane flyers etc etc etc

They get reported to the RSPCA for "leaving the cows out in the rain" (I kid you not) and generally are fighting an uphill battle to survive.

Just because a field has not held stock, or arable crop does not mean it is not agricultural land, much land nowadays is left as set aside for various reasons etc or because it is not economical to plant with certain crops at the moment.

(Sorry don't know how to put this post to wide page??)
Just had a thought - come a long way from the dangers of cows and calves - what would people have said if I had told you that this lovely bit of wild countryside (been 'set aside' for at least 40 years I would say) was being ploughed over by a property developer and being built on?  I know I am being extreme now but would people have still said - it is his land he can do what he likes with it?  Or poor property developer they have a hard time with people protesting against change etc.  Someone has to protect our countryside - this is not a poor farmer - he has had machines earth moving now for days on end - it looks like a building site now - it must have cost thousands already.  Sorry I am a cynical angry old woman and this seems a lot of work in order to keep cows.  How much profit is on beef cattle these days?????  Sorry folks didn't mean to bring all this up - 
Christine
I am off to play Olivia's new game and get myself some nice plain chocolate.

He can't do what he likes with it.  He could only use it for property developement if permitted to do so by the laws of the land, so yes, if he had obtained this, assuming all things such as conservation had been considered against the national need, then I would say he should be able to get on with it.
I think if you have a precendent of permissive use of this land for public walking you will have a good case for securing a Right of Way but unless and until you do I really can't see why this man cannot get on with doing whatever he has a legal right to do.

>  am off to play Olivia's new game and get myself some nice plain chocolate

Good idea :D And not so much of the old - you're only 5 years older than me :D :D :D

Daisy